WolfSpear Chapter

[Sete]

Unfortunately the BT and SW Primaris will follow the revised codex astartes, at least for now.

No Crusader Squads, No Grey Hunters.

That's one of the reasons I'm not making Primaris BT.

 

I hope I'm wrong, and the Primaris Codex will have rules for these special units.

But I fear that at least in the Templars case they finnaly turned them codex compliant.

[Filius]

 

 

 

But back on the other point on where loyalty will lie, I truly believe it will be with RG. Primaris SW do not fight like Wolves, they fight as RG designed them to fight. Their unit sizes and roles are his tactical genius handiwork. Their very existence is by his design and creation. In addition they shared the battlefield with him akin to the Terran and Fenrisian Wolves under Russ' design.

Hmm, didn't we have bolter only squads and plasma squads before the heresy? It seems their unit composition is a step backwards, if the codex astartes is as great as the smurfs claim.

 

It's his Book. And he didn't have Primaris, when he wrote it. And it's not like the rest of the Galaxy didn't change since the first Edition of the Codex was published. So … having a revised Edition every 10.000 years is not all to demanding for your readers, I think …

 

What I mean is that the structure of bolter only tactical squads and plasma support squads was a good idea before the heresy. Guilliman thought that only one special weapon and one heavy weapon in a squad was a good idea (unless they were devastators) but special weapons for everyone in the squad was practically unheard of (outside of command squads). But now it seems to be OK again, but only for the new marines. That makes no sense. A plasma gun has the same threat range as a boltgun, but is more deadly, so why wouldn't someone want to equip a whole squad with them? It could be prohibitively expensive, but that should be even more true for plasma incinerators, which are just plasma guns with longer range. And if Guilliman/Cawl found a way to produce plasma incinerators much more cheaply than plasma guns, why didn't he put smaller grips on them to equip regular marines with them?

 

Ah. First Answer to that question would be: Because he mostly had the Primaris Marines for his Crusade and of course he equiped them frist and foremost with the better weapons.

 

And when it comes to the question, they he didn't produce the new Weapons for smaller Marines: Mayyybeee, just maybe, because he wasn't all to sure about the Loyaltiy of the smaller Marines yet, and prefered to first keep the better wargear with those that are more probably loyal … just maybe … but who am I to think I could guess the thoughts of a Primarch …

 

Edit: Added the Quote of Quixus for better understanding …

Edited July 2, 2017 by Filius

[Quixus]

While this answers the question about plasma guns vs plasma incinerators, it does not address why Guilliman thought it wise to enforce a maximum of one plasma gun (but possibly paired with a fairly unwieldy heavy weapon) per squad for 10k years, when more were allowed previously.

[Filius]

While this answers the question about plasma guns vs plasma incinerators, it does not address why Guilliman thought it wise to enforce a maximum of one plasma gun (but possibly paired with a fairly unwieldy heavy weapon) per squad for 10k years, when more were allowed previously.

 

Yes it doesn't.

 

And I must admit, that I lack the skills and / or enthusiasm to come up with one.

Especially as the only thing about the Codex Astartes I consider reasonable is the breaking up of the legions into smaller chapters. I do see though, that the Codex was once a Tool within the Fluff, to justify things within the Game. I assume for balancing. But I can't even really understand that ... but that's off topic, sorry!

[Hellrender]

The thing we have to remember about the codex astartes isnthat we havent actually read it. All we have are snippets from characters from a universe we cant even realisticly imagine living in.

 

The codex is supposed to have been updated several times (to account for necrons, tyranids and tau), and it is a huge collection of books rather than a single book standing on somebodies bookcloset.

 

In addition, the codex astartes is fluff originating from a long long time ago. Well after the codex was established in the fluff, were the legion structures and primaris marines created in the fluff. This means that the writers in our universe didnt have to think of certain reasons to counter the changes they made in the 40k universe rwgarding legio structure to chapter structure.

 

What i mean here is that they didnt need a reason for 1 special 1 heavy other than because that is most flexible in universe.

They didnt need to explain why they went away from full squads of specials, because our universe writers didnt know there were full squads of specials. If that makes sense.

 

So woth that in mind, we cant really say why there is only 1 special and 1 heavy. Some fictional super genius in military strategy determined that. And the danger of looking into it to deeply is to discover there was no military super genius, only extremely passionate writers of fictional stuff.

 

And now a fictional super genius is adapting his masterpiece on military strategy based on 10000 years of development.

 

Mor maybe its just an average joe that plays with toy soldiers that writes that ;)

 

 

Hope my ramble made sense. Its all about perspective...

[Guest]

Do we have confirmation of a "Primaris Codex" the only confirmed ones I have heard are a SM, SW, BA, DA ones, via various writer sources (ex. SW one was confirmed on facebook by the writer and BA one on Twitter by the writer). It would make sense for GW to have the Primaris specific info in each of the 4 codex above so each Primaris could have its founding chapters specific rules. Making a primaris only codex would cause people to buy 4 books (rules, imperium vol. 1, primaris, chapter specific), something they said they were trying to reduce .

 

 

As for the wolf brother bending the knee. If they dont bend the knee to Russ, then who do they? They cant bend the knee to just to Emperor, they have no way to communicate with him. It is easy for now because Guilliman is the only primarch and he gave order (through his ultramarine sons) for the new SW chapter to be stationed at a planet and guard it. Normally I would take this as a great honor, but the general lack of turnover with original SW's and the denial to return one more time celebrate makes it bitter.

 

So what happens if The Lion comes and declares himself the heir of the Allfather and give the Wolfspear orders? Both speak on behalf of the Allfather. Do the Wolfspear follow the first founding as most successors would? What if it is Russ and he orders them back to Fenris? Do they deny their genefathers orders that should be ingrained in their geneseed to follow?

 

Point is there must be a chain of command from them to the Allfather. They can not alone act on the Allfathers will since they lack that authority. Normally that chain goes Chapter Masters to ( missing-for-now and replaced with the Highlords) Genefathers/Primarchs to the Allfather.

[Kelborn]

Unfortunately the BT and SW Primaris will follow the revised codex astartes, at least for now.

No Crusader Squads, No Grey Hunters.

That's one of the reasons I'm not making Primaris BT.

 

I hope I'm wrong, and the Primaris Codex will have rules for these special units.

But I fear that at least in the Templars case they finnaly turned them codex compliant.

 

Where do you got this from?

 

Sounds bad for the Templars, my most favorite successor chapter ever. :(

Hopfefully, they retain their crusader squads.

 

So the Primaris will be featured in the "normal" codices, correct? A Primaris codex would make more sense, imho. We got new troops, new tanks, new weapons and whatever may come in the next couple of weeks.

 

Maybe a few selected new troops for the specific codices and the entirey of the Primaris in a separate codex?

[Guest]

 

A simple explanation that is backed by countless times in books: Space Marines are bound to follow orders, as long as it doesnt go against the Emperors, via their genetic coding. It is ingrained in them all. If Russ returns and demands the Wolfspear to return then they must. The words of a primarch are almost hypnotic and carried out. In multiple book of the Primarch series it shows just that.

I would be hard pressed to find a loyal chapter that hasn't answered a first foundings chapter master orders. Even the Flesh Tearers and Black Templars have followed those orders. There is still a heirarchy in the chapter foundings.

 

Not at all.  We have the whole HH that shows that SM will turn their back on the Emperor (Traitors) and those that will turn their back on their Primarchs (those that remained loyal to the Emperor despite their Legions turning against him).  There was even a loyal interrogator-chaplain that chose the Edict of Nikkea over El'Johnson to his own fatal peril.

Hence why I said loyal, we have had chaos-corrupted ones but that is direct interfering with their gene-coding. There is always freedom of will with the SM's but read RG Primarch book and look how much they have to fight with their own gene-coding to perform those acts. The Captain who is bitter about his future position being stolen struggles internally about his thoughts and eats away at him for most of the book. Eventually though he still follows order despite wanting to and nearly doing so a few times.

[Sete]

 

 

Unfortunately the BT and SW Primaris will follow the revised codex astartes, at least for now.

No Crusader Squads, No Grey Hunters.

That's one of the reasons I'm not making Primaris BT.

 

I hope I'm wrong, and the Primaris Codex will have rules for these special units.

But I fear that at least in the Templars case they finnaly turned them codex compliant.

Where do you got this from?

 

Sounds bad for the Templars, my most favorite successor chapter ever. :(

Hopfefully, they retain their crusader squads.

 

So the Primaris will be featured in the "normal" codices, correct? A Primaris codex would make more sense, imho. We got new troops, new tanks, new weapons and whatever may come in the next couple of weeks.

 

Maybe a few selected new troops for the specific codices and the entirey of the Primaris in a separate codex?

My assumption.

But I'm sure the next codex will be Primaris only.

 

It will be a standalone army.

[Guest]

 

 

Unfortunately the BT and SW Primaris will follow the revised codex astartes, at least for now.

No Crusader Squads, No Grey Hunters.

That's one of the reasons I'm not making Primaris BT.

I hope I'm wrong, and the Primaris Codex will have rules for these special units.

But I fear that at least in the Templars case they finnaly turned them codex compliant.

Where do you got this from?

Sounds bad for the Templars, my most favorite successor chapter ever. :(

Hopfefully, they retain their crusader squads.

So the Primaris will be featured in the "normal" codices, correct? A Primaris codex would make more sense, imho. We got new troops, new tanks, new weapons and whatever may come in the next couple of weeks.

Maybe a few selected new troops for the specific codices and the entirey of the Primaris in a separate codex?

My assumption.

But I'm sure the next codex will be Primaris only.

It will be a standalone army.

Except even now the Primaris are in "normal" chapters and have [chapter] options. Which means they will not be stand-alone. The devs said you COULD make a Primaris only chapter and armies, but not that Primaris WERE a stand-alone chapter. The Primaris ARE mixed in with both Primaris and normal astartes for both fluff and tabletop.

[Sete]

Let's wait for the next codex.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

Unfortunately the BT and SW Primaris will follow the revised codex astartes, at least for now.

No Crusader Squads, No Grey Hunters.

That's one of the reasons I'm not making Primaris BT.

I hope I'm wrong, and the Primaris Codex will have rules for these special units.

But I fear that at least in the Templars case they finnaly turned them codex compliant.

Where do you got this from?

Sounds bad for the Templars, my most favorite successor chapter ever. :(

Hopfefully, they retain their crusader squads.

So the Primaris will be featured in the "normal" codices, correct? A Primaris codex would make more sense, imho. We got new troops, new tanks, new weapons and whatever may come in the next couple of weeks.

Maybe a few selected new troops for the specific codices and the entirey of the Primaris in a separate codex?

My assumption.

But I'm sure the next codex will be Primaris only.

It will be a standalone army.

Except even now the Primaris are in "normal" chapters and have [chapter] options. Which means they will not be stand-alone. The devs said you COULD make a Primaris only chapter and armies, but not that Primaris WERE a stand-alone chapter. The Primaris ARE mixed in with both Primaris and normal astartes for both fluff and tabletop.

They have standalone chapters. That is the vast majority of what you have currently heading back to home planets. They are successor, but not successor chapters to all the existing foundings minus the traitor Legions. It has already been written that they will be standalone forces but much smaller. It is good odds that they will have their index released long before any existing since they are the new bright and shiny.

 

And they get chapter keywords, but not chapter options which is what I think you meant since no SW Intercessors are not going to suddenly get the option of chain swords and HQ will not be choosing frost weapons or TWC.

[Grimtooth]

Just had an off-topic thought;

 

If Fenrisians were indeed taken during the HH for this project, it pretty much acknowledges and confirms that unless the Emperor is directly involved in creating Terran Wolves, Wolves pretty much have to come from Fenris for them to work. I mean Cawl didn't up and just start making Primaris SW out of anyone, he went and got Fenrisians.

[Guest]

Just had an off-topic thought;

If Fenrisians were indeed taken during the HH for this project, it pretty much acknowledges and confirms that unless the Emperor is directly involved in creating Terran Wolves, Wolves pretty much have to come from Fenris for them to work. I mean Cawl didn't up and just start making Primaris SW out of anyone, he went and got Fenrisians.

That is correct, the SW in Dark Imperium did indeed come from Fenris and wanted to go back.

[Grimtooth]

 

Just had an off-topic thought;

If Fenrisians were indeed taken during the HH for this project, it pretty much acknowledges and confirms that unless the Emperor is directly involved in creating Terran Wolves, Wolves pretty much have to come from Fenris for them to work. I mean Cawl didn't up and just start making Primaris SW out of anyone, he went and got Fenrisians.

That is correct, the SW in Dark Imperium did indeed come from Fenris and wanted to go back.

My point being that Cawl recognized that he could only use the SW geneseed on Fenrisians. People have always questioned how we had Terran SW which many has said that the Emperor having a direct hand in their creation was how we got them and without him, Fenrisians were needed.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Alright, has gone far enough and Im pretty sure the origins of the Fenrisian Primaris Marines has been discussed in enough topics already.

 

Let's return to the original topic, which is: "What kind of colour do you guys think it should have? I like the pre heresy scheme metal grey bronze and red personally.

And what kind of symbol should it have? "

 

JKC

[Sete]

I woulf personally go for a dirty gunmetal grey, shoulder inset red and black symbols.

 

But since Guy Haley will be returning to them, I rather wait a while for more info.

[Guest]

I think it will depend if they take a persona of their 30k selves, from the time they were stolen from, or a more modern time. If it is 30k i can see them using grey. If it is newer I can see them using a strong deep blue.

[DanPesci]

 I – very personally – would wish for the Wolfspear to go in the opposite direction of Forge Worlds 30k Space Wolves: Stronger, brighter Colours, more Contrast in the Colour-Scheme and the Design of the Minis, maybe even a different Base-Colour for the Armour. I think, keeping the yellow Shoulder Pads but having the main Armour in a green tone would look great and still wolfish, halfway toward Woodelves, adding more celtic Elements than skandinavian. And when I look a the last Additions to the 40k Space Wolves (Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalery, the new Ulrik and Krom) and try to mix this in my head with the new Primaris Designs … then this direction seems to be not all to implausible to me … to say it very, very carefully.

 

 

This appeals to me somewhat (possbily cos ive lived in scotland for 10+ years). The idea of forest green wolves when done well could be really really cool.

 

Thanks (not thanks) for adding yet another idea to my head for what i want to model/fluff write next for my wolves hahah 

Edited July 3, 2017 by DanPesci

[Filius]

 

 I – very personally – would wish for the Wolfspear to go in the opposite direction of Forge Worlds 30k Space Wolves: Stronger, brighter Colours, more Contrast in the Colour-Scheme and the Design of the Minis, maybe even a different Base-Colour for the Armour. I think, keeping the yellow Shoulder Pads but having the main Armour in a green tone would look great and still wolfish, halfway toward Woodelves, adding more celtic Elements than skandinavian. And when I look a the last Additions to the 40k Space Wolves (Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalery, the new Ulrik and Krom) and try to mix this in my head with the new Primaris Designs … then this direction seems to be not all to implausible to me … to say it very, very carefully.

 

 

This appeals to me somewhat (possbily cos ive lived in scotland for 10+ years). The idea of forest green wolves when done well could be really really cool.

 

Thanks (not thanks) for adding yet another idea to my head for what i want to model/fluff write next for my wolves hahah 

 

 

I'm honoured. I even bought half a dozen Green Tones for Test-Minis, but then my interest went into another direction. If'll make that Test-Mini, I'll let you know!

[Grimtooth]

Go with the old school SW blue armor so the UM chapter marking that will be alongside the Wolf Spear chapter marking won't clash too much.

 

/sarcasm off

 

Really it is an open book on how you want to do them as they really have no real link to the HH Wolves or current Wolves. If they were just Fenrisian aspirants when taken during the HH, they probably never even set foot in the Aett so have no exposure to HH Wolves. They may have been born if that era but have no connection to said eras events or going ons. Likewise with the current timeline Wolves since 112 years of RG's newest crusade doesn't really have them fighting with the Wolves or like the Wolves.

 

I personally would go with something based upon whatever fluff I could imagine and then maybe one shoulder pad with something SW to ID their ancestry.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Brother Ramses

[Sete]

Go with the old school SW blue armor so the UM chapter marking that will be alongside the Wolf Spear chapter marking won't clash too much.

 

You don't need the sarcasm. ;)

[Filius]

 

Go with the old school SW blue armor so the UM chapter marking that will be alongside the Wolf Spear chapter marking won't clash too much.

You don't need the sarcasm.

 

 

A Wolfs Head, caged within the turned around Omega! Makes me schmunzel (a german verb, halfway between smiling and laughing, between merriment and benevolence, and more in the heart than in the face).

Edited July 4, 2017 by Filius

[Filius]

Go with the old school SW blue armor so the UM chapter marking that will be alongside the Wolf Spear chapter marking won't clash too much.

 

/sarcasm off

 

Really it is an open book on how you want to do them as they really have no real link to the HH Wolves or current Wolves. If they were just Fenrisian aspirants when taken during the HH, they probably never even set foot in the Aett so have no exposure to HH Wolves. They may have been born if that era but have no connection to said eras events or going ons. Likewise with the current timeline Wolves since 112 years of RG's newest crusade doesn't really have them fighting with the Wolves or like the Wolves.

 

I personally would go with something based upon whatever fluff I could imagine and then maybe one shoulder pad with something SW to ID their ancestry.

 

Everything that Brother Ramses said plus: If they are even organized like the Space Wolves into quasie autonomous Great Companies, which each has a charismatic Wolf Lord and an own Focus on Warfare, it is even quite plausible that every Great Company can have an own, and more prominent Company Symbol instead of the Chapter Symbol as well as an own Colour Scheme.

 

So … an option would be: Come up with your own Wolfspear Great Company! If it turns out that they really have Great Companies: perfect! If it turns out that they don't have Great Companies you can still make them a "Lost Company", like it is common among the regular Space Wolves Players.

[Grimtooth]

my response was off topic. Edited July 4, 2017 by Brother Ramses