World Eaters in 40k and logistics

[Walter Payton]

I have a question -

 

Are there any novels or short stories which show how the World Eaters and other super-Khornates in the 41st millenium get around and get their stuff fixed.  The way they are often presented as being always angry all the time it sometimes seems a wonder they can even function outside of combat, but presumably they have guys who maintain their vessels, repair their armor, help their Apothecaries with creating new Astartes etc.  Is this ever explained?  The logistics of, say, the Butcherhorde would be really cool to know.  Or at least I think so.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Khârn: Eater of Worlds has a human serf aboard the Conquerer (I think it was the Conquerer? or it was some random ship) as a POV character. I think it does a decent job of summing up how a XII Legion warband operates post-heresy outside of combat operations.

Edited June 30, 2017 by OPTIMVSCHRISTVS

[Commissar K.]

Will come back with you once Im home. The World Eaters are still the largests of Hertical Warbands but also because a lot of connections are there between them and Traitor Guard Regiments.

 

Forgeworld has a lot of stuff written on this and a rough 10 years ago confirmation in WDs where given how World Eaters, Blood Pact and others operate.

 

While Khorne despises Psykers for warfare and battle purposes its almost impossible to immagne them not having navigators or even Psycic Nulls amongst their ranks.

[Khornestar]

In Traitor's Hate, it talks about how Khârn just kept attracting more and more Khornate forces like a magnet. Thousands of heretic Astartes, I'm pretty sure.

 

Then they all die and Khârn alone appears to be the only survivor (teleported away against his will).

 

Doesn't answer your question, but I mention it more as a way of demonstrating that the logistics aren't always fleshed out, exactly. Yeah, Khorne loves him some mindless bloodshed, but somebody's gotta be flying those ships, fixing gear, and so on.

[Excessus]

I'm guessing they have marines that have earned their armour but not their nails yet driving tanks, guarding stuff and so on...together with dark mechanicum and renegade forces...

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

I've been toying with the idea of my warband using augmented serfs to pilot their vehicles (a la Septimus in the Nightlords trilogy being the warband's Thunderhawk pilot).

[Commissar K.]

I have a question -

 

Are there any novels or short stories which show how the World Eaters and other super-Khornates in the 41st millenium get around and get their stuff fixed.  The way they are often presented as being always angry all the time it sometimes seems a wonder they can even function outside of combat, but presumably they have guys who maintain their vessels, repair their armor, help their Apothecaries with creating new Astartes etc.  Is this ever explained?  The logistics of, say, the Butcherhorde would be really cool to know.  Or at least I think so.

Well, back again. 

 

- Blood Crusades

There is a very short story on the Chaos Fleets, these most certainly include the fleets that belong to the World Eaters. Being that the way they work is most certainly still akin to that of the days they wern't so heavily infused with Warp Energy. The thing here is that fleets as is work on Astropaths, Navigators and possibly Psykers. These are the individuals who can steer fleets through the Warp in semi efficient ways ;).

 

With this in mind it's also very important to remember that these individuals can be aboard the ship without actually being a World Eater Space Marine. We know Khorne hates Psykers, but like the fluff is written for 40K he hates it when magic is used in combat. Outside of that, for things such as Daemonic summonning, we have no clear record of him completely despising that aswell. Afterall in order for several Daemons to appear certain rituals still have to be preformed that can be seen as "magical". For example massacring a whole world in a single night will certainly draw the attention of Khorne and will most certainly have a rippled effect on the Warp itself. (Offcourse depending per population). 

 

If you want to read more upon the current Blood Crusades several World Eater Warbands are still participating in you can read a little of that aswell. The Cholercaust Blood Crusade was such an example and is covered in The Legion of the Damned Novel by Rob Sanders.

 

- World Eater Fleet

Since Chaos Space Marines Codex 2002 a lot has changed, again however the same sketch is given that the Chaos Fleets never disbanded the way the Loyalist Fleets did. Now obviously we have Khârn being held responsible for shattering the World Eater Legion but we also have seen the Legion unite again in 2016's Traitor Hate. So in reality, like Chaos suggests, there is always a chaotical version of the Legion present, never stable, never one force with numbers beyond reasoning. 

 

Luckily for us we can still find a lot of lore confirmation of our Fleet stille excisting and appearing from the Warp again. Even upon recorded destruction of vessels they have re-appeared once again. What is the excuse for this for me personally is that the Warp is not subject to the laws of time or space as we know it. I personally firmly believe that time within the Warp can pass and be turned back when desidered. Meaning that in essence the Chaos Fleet is indeed unending, for a period, if the Warp pressence allows it...

Warp logic aside, these are some names of our vessels:

- Blood Shrike

- The Conqueror

- Cardoc

- Dedicated Wrath

- Gladiator

- Gatts' Charge

- Industrious

- Justified Aggressor

- Merciless

- Silent Fury

 

Many of these Vessels are also equiped with the legendary brutal Ursus Claws, basically an harpoon to drag other Vessels near them enough so melee assault could be ensued. 

 

Lastly keep in mind that every new edition alters narrative. Currently there is little to nothing that is actually in line with the narrative we knew from for 8th edition. Likewise narrative from the 2000's doesnt remotely apply to the game we have now. There are a lot of fans who'd like to tell you otherwise but from someone who likes this game and many more fairness is required. Fairly spoken GW loves to alter a lot.

 

Cheers,

 

[Berzerker88]

There is an old chapter serf in Chosen of Khorne. He's the only living thing that Khârn spares in that book, and takes him along to serve him after killing his former masters. So technically nothing stops other World Eaters from having their own serfs.

 

Then there's the cults, renegade guardsmen, etc. Khorne Daemonkin are extremely methodical in their rituals, organization and military doctrines, and are said to compete for the loyalty of World Eater/Khornate Berzerker warbands.

 

I'd also like to add that summoning daemons does not require one to be a psyker. Hell, if the KDK codex is any indication, you can bring entire Hosts just by killing and dying, and this can be further boosted by orginizing their armies in accordance to the scriptures of slaughter.

[Trevak Dal]

Gatts charge? That's pretty cool. And now I'm trying to justify painting Purple world eaters...

[Commissar K.]

I'd also like to add that summoning daemons does not require one to be a psyker. Hell, if the KDK codex is any indication, you can bring entire Hosts just by killing and dying, and this can be further boosted by orginizing their armies in accordance to the scriptures of slaughter.

Lore certainly changes per edition. That is something that is certain. It seems like AoS' plans have also flowed to 40K and back again. But yes, by just killing and dying it can be done. Provided there still is a logical vessel and Warp activity near that area.

The thing is, and many players seem to get this mixed up, Khorne hates magic in combat or to win wars. No more, no less. Khorne is not some sort of chaotified Ordo Hereticus that actually cares more for the death of Psykers as he does for others.

What the Horus Heresy novel tells us is that even Angron would have not ascended into a Daemon Prince if it wasn't for Psykers. The World Eaters killing theirs had very little to do with the unspoken hate for them but much more to do with them prefenting Angron from ascending into the Warp energies to become a Daemon Prince. 

 

The thing with 40K in general is that there is always a stigma on Psykers. Not even the regular goody goody Space Marine chapters love these guys. So pre-heresy's Angron's mistrust for them is one shared by many Space Marines. It wasn't for nothing that Magnus himself was arguably the biggest Space Marine Outcast.

With this in mind however as before, it's not like Khorne has a drastical plan eliminating every single Psyker out there. So for purposes such as navigation and fleet control we have no written confirmation that World Eaters have killed all their psycic related members. 

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

As to the Khorne-hates-psykers thing, don't forget the Gore Mages from the Gaunts Ghosts series. Khornate psykers are canon, although rare and fairly specific in what they can do.

[Commissar K.]

Certainly. As above the only thing I do think is consistent is that Khorne hates the use of magic and psycic powers in combat/warfare. As in, he does not want the battle to be won this way. Very likely because battles fought that way in one way or another actually have the option to empower Tzeentch more as Khorne. This is at least my thake on it. 

When we look at Age of Sigmar (same Khorne). We see that Bloodletters and all other Khorne Daemons can be summonned with Sorcerers. What we do not see is that these Daemons directly attack the Sorcerer who summoned them. Better put in many cases they co-operate as long as the aim is to shed blood and claim skulls in the name of Khorne. 
It's very likely those Daemons despise those who summoned them but the hate isn't that great that we actually see them being overcome with this and their initial job is to thake that skull specifically. Age of Sigmar even has a Sorcerer with the Mark of Khorne. Being Archaon.

When we look at 40K a lot of these principles also apply. Those fallen to Chaos with Psycic powers are capable to summon Daemons. Be it to create the being into excistance right then and there, create it as the bound spirit of a Daemonic Engine or even trap it into a wicked blade. The latter again is also a confirmation we have in Age of Sigmar so again Daemonic summoning is certainly done with Khorne Daemons aswell and from a game perspective the most logical way to do this is through Sorcery/Psycic powers.

Since lore changes with the years and editions it might be interesting to look back where it all came from, the first note on this subject of Khorne, Psykers and Sorcerers is that Khorne is very simple in his approaches. To gain his favour is by killing friends or enemies. The only way to incur his displeasure is by not killing. Before that it's mentioned that the use of spells is abhorrent to him and he's unlikely to ever deal with a creature that has used it. Basically stating that the moment you use magic you will not recieve any additional power from Khorne. For that power is only given to the warrior. The use of weapons however holds no such limit, both for melee and ranged combat. When we really go back in time we even see the datasheet for a World Eater Librarian, they just don't have Psycic powers but are confirmed to still fill in a role for communications and strategy purposes.

What it all boils down to is that lore changes as much as editions do, so Astropath and Navigator logistics for World Eaters most certainly arn't removed from lore. They are also not mentioned often but the prime reason for that is likely that both World Eaters and Khorne don't really care too much for them. Though for a mortal following like World Eaters they are still required. 

 

[Berzerker88]

You're both missing that all the new fluff explicitly states that Khorne harbors a special hatred for the witch. The Chaos index states he despises sorcery and sees it unfitting for a warrior (despite the fact that sorcerers are used for summoning and binding daemons, thus retconning all previous instances of them being accepted in khornate forces). In Black Crusade, there is a special ritual for Khornate characters which consists of cursing and hating the names of psykers to gain immunity to their powers. Brass Collars and the 'Blessing of the Blood God' he gave to Khârn are also a thing. KDK and WE even had unique objective cards which rewarded extra victory points for killing psykers.

 

My take on it considering the recent fluff is that Khorne is OK with magical weapons, daemon engines (index says hes OK with them even though sorcery is needed for their creation, wierd, I know) astropaths and navigators, everything else is a hated sacrifice. Psykers for summoning daemons were a thing in old fluff, but that exception has not been mentioned ever since and is technically obsolete as of the Daemonkin codex.

[Commissar K.]

The thing is that the Daemonkin codex as is is as obsolete as Slaves to Darkness giving you the option to run World Eater Librarians, as obsolete as Obliterators being a rarity and  Raptors and Havocs not being able to recieve Mark of Khorne. Under the current rules of Index Chaos a lot of narrative is lost, most of it actually. This might return with the upcomming Codexi but for now this is not the case at all. 

As before the only constant is that Khorne rewards the warrior, which indeed in his eye arn't sorcerers or psykers. However not rewarding it again has nothing to do with a hate or elimination of the individual at hand. Khorne isn't a chaotified Ordo Hereticus and frankly speaking we can be sure it will never become that either because Khorne himself, his realm, planets and weapons are indeed made up of magic or psycic energies aswell.

What is a reminder is that lore constantly changes within 40k and nothing is explicit or a constant exclusive to one or the other (with Reivers being such an example also). The prime reason as to why GW will not make things too exclusive in any way shape or form also comes from the fact that exclusivity means that certain units will only be picked up by certain players. This is very much why even on the loyalist side exclusive unit such as the Land Raider Crusader isn't exclusive to any particular chapter anymore. Likewise logical steps for upcomming Chaos will still continue to allow for these blends as the players see fit and as the players seem to like 'all the options' over 'narrative options' anyway.

There once was a time where Cultists where exclusive to the Alpha Legions, Chaos Vindicators exclusive to Iron Warriors and Khorne Berzerkers to World Eaters. Now however the narrative allows for much more because it means that as a player of the faction you can use the whole range as opposed to a very tiny fraction.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Berzerker88]

I disagree with the idea that a new edition instantly retcons everything that has ever been said before. Rather, I believe it would be more correct to assume it is still valid until new source material contradicts/disproves/retcons it. So I think the Khorne Daemonkin fluff is still valid for now, until they get a new supplment (or are merged into a single World Eaters codex as it has been rumored), then that book will be the new canon.

 

However I agree with you that Khorne doesn't hate 'magic' or psychic energies in general, just the kind of people who use it in a fight, which he considers to be cowards/cheaters. He also goes out of his way to protect his followers from psychic powers in a battle, be it through special artifact or an invisible spiritual resistance.

 

Of course this being a new edition the details could change soon in the new CSM codex, but we could still speculate. I don't think we're getting a Khornate discipline any time soon.

[Commissar K.]

I don't think we will see a Codex World Eaters any time soon either, but we can hope and wait. For now though I think the question at hand is awnsered. In the shorest way being:

- We do not have confirmation that World Eaters have destroyed all their crew with latent Psycic Powers. Meaning characters like Astropaths and Navigators might still excist on the Traitor vessels. Likely more mutated and Daemonic, but in many ways these characters are very mutated and can get into contant with the Daemonic allready anyway.

The fine advantge we have is that within Chaos there is no such thing as Heretical behaviour, no fear for the Chaotic and thus while Khorne might deem Sorcerers useless and weaklings it does not mean that Khorne is a witchhunter. Because again this is not confirmed in any of the narrative surrounding him. Khorne is likely even aware that Sorcerers can be extremely potent and knows that his vision on them is biased and because of that he indeed hands out gifts that allow the warrior to even be victorious against such Sorcerers.

Remember though that narrative rarely has a massive effect on rules within 8th. This can change, but for now isn't the case in 8th. With that I mean is that from a narrative perspective Emperors Children and World Eaters would not co-operate in one army where Khârn leads them. For the game however you can, as there is not a single rule or narrative piece in Index Chaos stating you cannot do this.

[Lord Marshal]

There once was a time where Cultists where exclusive to the Alpha Legions, Chaos Vindicators exclusive to Iron Warriors and Khorne Berzerkers to World Eaters. Now however the narrative allows for much more because it means that as a player of the faction you can use the whole range as opposed to a very tiny fraction.

 

 

The thing to keep in mind however is the new Death Guard list. They lost a lot of stuff that they could otherwise take and is unlikely to see a return a mere two months after the Index; Raptors, Bikes, Vindicators, Forge/Maulerfiends, etc. 

 

I seriously do not see World Eaters keeping psykers (and possibly even Raptors) when their time arrives if the Death Guard book keeps the above units out of their list.

 

Short term? Yeah sure you could paint up a Sorcerer and whatever else and slap him in your World Eaters/Khorne themed list, but in the long-term? Don't hold your breath on them being there once the proper list is out, or else ally a CSM detachment I guess.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Lord Marshal

[Commissar K.]

I completely agree. AoS Chaos was in the same position. Though is also still legal to play mixed, matched and combined in less logical narrative approach.

[Trevak Dal]

When I think about my World Eaters, I imagine them as a sort of chimera of angry "proud warrior race" stereotypes.

 

Dash of Klingon, fist full of Saiyan, some Black Templar-esque righteous indignation, and a pervasive hatred of vampires and werewolves, led by a Daemon Prince version of Sam Kineson (he's an elevated former Word Bearer Dark Apostle who found Khorne to be the most supreme of the gods).

 

 

If I hadn't gotten as far as I have painting them, I'd really consider making them like the Saints in Space led by Daemon Prince Johnny Gatt, stomping on the neck of a Siege Dancer using a chaosed up and gold plated riptide burst cannon as a warp Bolter.