Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 The World Eaters index entry states that they can use any datasheets from pages 16-42. It says that changing the <LEGION> keyword to World Eaters shows this. It then says that if a unit has the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword, it must be Khorne. God cult troops do not have the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword, it is a fixed option. In the case of rubric marines, Tzeentch. World eater options do not say that they must have the Khorne keyword nor that they cannot have the Tzeentch keyword. Also, rubric marines do not say they cannot have the World Eaters keyword. It also does not say that World Eaters cannot have Rubric Marines, Sorcerers, Plague Marines, or Noise Marines (the only units where being a World Eater would get complicated). I'm sure it was an oversight, but this does technically mean I can have World Eater rubicae or plague marines right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Some datasheets specify the Mark of Chaos for a unit (e.g. Khârn the Betrayer has the Khorne keyword). If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Mark of Chaos a unit has, it will have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword. If a World Eaters unit has a Mark of Chaos keyword, it must be Khorne. So, no. The Rubric Marines have the Tzeentch keyword, which cannot be changed, and constitutes a 'Mark of Chaos'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Also, you can't give psykers the Mark of Khorne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 So it's automatically assumed that any model with the Tzeentch keyword has a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword with Tzeentch filled in then? I'm not trying to be argumentative, it actually sounds prety reasonable, I just wonder why not simply state that World Eaters cannot have the Tzeentch, Nurgle, or Slaanesh keywords or be psykers. In all honesty the lack of definition for World Eaters and Emperors Children army list really disturbs me. Which brings me to a follow up question. Can sorcerers be World Eaters? They cannot have the Khorne mark, but the rule about marks states that you do not have to pick a mark for units with <MARK OF CHAOS> in which case they are undedicated. The Dark Vengeance update booklet shows that the <MARK OF CHAOS> simply disappears if undedicated, so you would have a librarian with no <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword or its replacement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Well world eaters have to have the mark of khorne...so they couldn't have any other marks because they aren't Snowflake Abaddon. Can sorcerers take the mark of khorne? No they can't, so no they cannot be World Eaters (you can still take them, it would just be battleforged as under Chaos instead of being under World Eaters.) Similarly, you can take Ksons, but they would be an elites choice in a non Ksons/Ksons Warband/"successor" army. Legion is like Chapter, so World Eaters is like Ravenguard. World Eater havocs, Csms, raptors and such have to have the mark of khorne. Its like a sad version of the adequate legion book gw releases last fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Right but you can opt for your sorcerer to not have a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword in which case they are not violating the World Eaters rules which state that IF a unit does have a <MARK OF CHAOS> it must be Khorne. If you have an unaligned sorcerer with no <MARK OF CHAOS> it is not violating the World Eater rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Much agreement on the Traitor Legions book though, it feels kind of like I was taunted now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Pretty sure it also states in the World Eaters bit that if you want World Eaters you gotta take the Mark of Khorne. Can't take Mark of Khorne, can't take it. And if you do take Mark of Khorne you can't be a psyker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Right but you can opt for your sorcerer to not have a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword in which case they are not violating the World Eaters rules which state that IF a unit does have a <MARK OF CHAOS> it must be Khorne. If you have an unaligned sorcerer with no <MARK OF CHAOS> it is not violating the World Eater rules.Doesn't work that way. The Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch are the <Mark of Chaos> keywords. So when it says that any unit that takes the World Eaters <Legion> keyword must also have the Khorne <Mark of Chaos> keyword, it means that units that have any other <Mark of Chaos> keyword(Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch) or units that are restricted from taking the Khorne <Mark of Chaos> keyword, cannot be World Eaters. That means no Tzaangors, no Rubricae, no Exalted Sorcerers, no Poxwalkers, etc. Now, if you want to have an army that uses faction Chaos or Heretic Astartes, then you can mix and match. You can even have separate detachments. But you cannot have World Eaters Rubricae. Trust me, the point has already been sufficiently beaten to death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Marks are locked for Cult units; so no. You cannot have Tzeentch plauge marines, Tzeentch berzerkers, or Tzeentch Noise marines. Same goes with every other mark for various cult units. If its locked, its locked. < this > is the symbol for a "changeable" keyword, and its specifically stated what keywords it can and cant have. The Deathguard and Thousand sons have specific keyword lists for their given armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 I get the point on no cult units, but the World Eaters rules don't say that only Khorne Models can be World Eaters, it says "IF" they have <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword it must be Khorne. An unaligned sorcerer, the rules on marks say you can choose not to assign a mark, does not have a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword. Because the "IF" portion allows for unaligned models to be World Eaters, an unaligned sorcerer is not violating World Eater rules from what I can see. No rubric marines I get, unaligned sorcerers are a different rules issue altogether. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Here, read yourself the previous discussion. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335493-tzaangors-and-poxwalkers-legion-only/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 That doesn't adress the sorcerer issue as what complicates that is the entry for <MARK OF CHAOS> stating you do not have to take a mark if you dont want to. In this case neither the <MARK OF CHAOS> or any keyword serving as one are attributed to the model. You therefore can have a sorcerer without any <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword which means it doesnt have the Khorne or any other <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword. Having the Khorne keyword is not a requirement if you have no <MARK OF CHAOS> due to the if portion of the World Eaters rules statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 I get the point on no cult units, but the World Eaters rules don't say that only Khorne Models can be World Eaters, it says "IF" they have <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword it must be Khorne. An unaligned sorcerer, the rules on marks say you can choose not to assign a mark, does not have a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword. Because the "IF" portion allows for unaligned models to be World Eaters, an unaligned sorcerer is not violating World Eater rules from what I can see. No rubric marines I get, unaligned sorcerers are a different rules issue altogether. you are still wrong, it doesn't matter IF you can choose to not take a mark the World Eaters Keyword Specifically says if a unit has <mark of Chaos> it must be Khorne, doesn't matter :cuss the what you do the sorcerer still has <Mark of chaos > as part of his base Keywords if you can't change it to Khorne through the World Eaters restrictions you can't give that unit the world eater and you can't get rid of it to give him the world eater Keyword which Psykers can never have regardless of hard you try bending the rules to suit. Yes the mark of chaos rule say you do not have to choose a mark (Khorne etc) but you will still have the Mark of Chaos Keyword you can't remove keywords from units only change them Seriously why the :cuss does this keep coming up it's common sense if people are so damn fixated with having Sorcerers in Khorne forces just take any other legion keyword it hardly even matters if a sorcerer doesn't have the world eater Keyword whilst other stuff on the army does, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 You didn't read far enough. Or at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Based on the Dark Vengeance update booklet, not taking a mark of chaos drops the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword from the unit profile. If it's not on your profile, you have nothing requiring you to take the Khorne keyword because the World Eaters rules say "IF" you have the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword. All models with an open <LEGION> keyword have a named mark or <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword except for Daemon Princes who are already named seperately in the section of World Eater rules addressing this. The presence of the word "IF" along with the presence of some form of the <MARK OF CHAOS> on every model with an open <LEGION> keyword seems to indicate that unaligned models are allowed or else the "IF" should not be there. Mark of chaos rules say I dont have to take a mark of chaos, published material shows the keyword being dropped in this case, the keyword is dropped so i have no <MARK OF CHAOS>, World Eaters rules say "IF" I have <MARK OF CHAOS> (which I don't) it must be Khorne, I dont have the keyword, so where is the problem exactly? I understand rubric marines have Tzeentch in their profile, but the open <MARK OF CHAOS> units are a different matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 No. That is an intentional sidestep of the rules and you know it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 No one is going to be convinced, I think. If someone wants to pull some silly shenanigans like this, then go for it, but expect your opponents to be annoyed/refuse and tourneys to ask you to change your list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Exactly. You wanna house rule it? Cool beans. But it's going to be a house rule, not RAW, or even RAI. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 RAW you can do this. No shenenigans, only stirred older narrative. Keword <Mark of Chaos> is NOT a count all Keyword because no Keyword is. As such changing it is only a requirement for those who have it. What World Eaters does not say is that the Khorne Keyword is required for any other than Daemon Prince and <Mark of Chaos> keyword. Narrative has nothing to do with RAW. The fact that people dislike it does not mean it is written in another way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Eh, that seems like a pretty disingenuous attitude, though. In the spirit of the game as presented and played by the people who created it and I would wager the vast majority of the fandom, there aren't World Eaters sorcerers. That doesn't mean players can't do it or even shouldn't do it, but I don't think it's difficult to understand why people would have problems with it from a fluff or crunch perspective. The argument isn't even coming from a place of something along the lines of, "In a bizarrely rare combination of circumstances, my World Eaters are dominated by a cabal of blood-magic-wielding sorcerers, so that's why they're in my army." It's just some kind of wonky rules lawyering. It really doesn't matter in the end, play however you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Some datasheets specify the Mark of Chaos for a unit (e.g. Khârn the Betrayer has the Khorne keyword). If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Mark of Chaos a unit has, it will have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword. If a World Eaters unit has a Mark of Chaos keyword, it must be Khorne. So, no. The Rubric Marines have the Tzeentch keyword, which cannot be changed, and constitutes a 'Mark of Chaos'. As with your same quote. Tzeentch DOES NOT consitute as Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. They do not have that Keyword like Khârn does not have the keyword either. The moment you do have the Keyword <Mark of Chaos> it needs to be changed to Khorne. The moment you do not have it, e.g. you have Keyword Black Templars, Slaanesh, Fallen you simply don't have it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Dude, we already went over this with you before. That is sidestepping the rules and you know it. Even GW's Facebook page disagrees with you. And those are actual employees. You can try to disseminate into whatever you want to make you happy, but it does not change the rules and you know it. So stop saying its RAW when it is obviously not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 These discussions are all well and good as far as internet land goes, but it is all completely, utterly academic. In meatspace, you would just get laughed at for trying to convince others that a World Eaters army comprised of Thousand Sons is within the spirit or rules of 40k. Kinda reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where George is convinced that he won Trivial Pursuit because of a typo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Let me put it this way and if someone chooses to misunderstand it, they do so knowing they are wilfully misinterpreting the rules. On page 11, the rules use Khârn as an example of how to take a <Mark of Chaos> keyword. Khârn is a unit that already has the keyword Khorne. This means, by y'alls logic, he cannot qualify as example of how to replace the <Mark of Chaos> keyword because he never had it. And yet he is used as an example because as far as the rules and GW are concerned, the keywords <Mark of Chaos>, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and even the option to not take a <Mark of Chaos> keyword, all occupy the exact same space on the datasheet. So if you choose to take nothing, then you are ignoring the Khorne restriction for the World Eaters keyword. If you are using the preexisting keywords of Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch to sidestep the restriction, then you are sidestepping it. No ifs, no amds, no buts. It is not RAW, it is not RAI. It is houseruling. And if that floats the boat for you and your gaming group, cool beans. Don't expect everyone else to be kosher with your houseruling. And if you even think about trying to say I'm sticking to narrative, then you need to do a search on all the topics asking about Khorne psykers and where I have used background older than I am to smackdown naysayers who have been members on this forum longer than I have in order to show where the narrative supports Khorne psykers. This RAW, not narrative preference so don't even try that excuse again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/#findComment-4805333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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