World Eaters Rubicae?

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

If is in the unit profile, it should be <Khorne> to qualify as a <World Eaters>, if instead of there is a fixed keyword like <Tzeentch> it can't be changed -because is fixed- thus not qualifying to be <World Eaters>, is really that simple. Trying to do otherwise is just <houseruling>, <cheating> or <WAAC>.

Cheers :)

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

Eh, that seems like a pretty disingenuous attitude, though. In the spirit of the game as presented and played by the people who created it and I would wager the vast majority of the fandom, there aren't World Eaters sorcerers. That doesn't mean players can't do it or even shouldn't do it, but I don't think it's difficult to understand why people would have problems with it from a fluff or crunch perspective. The argument isn't even coming from a place of something along the lines of, "In a bizarrely rare combination of circumstances, my World Eaters are dominated by a cabal of blood-magic-wielding sorcerers, so that's why they're in my army." It's just some kind of wonky rules lawyering.

The issue is that with rules as written there is no attitude, required logic from a narrative standpoint or even a liking of a certain player base. All these thoughts are subjective while rules are as objective as they can be. What GW has done really well is make Keywords black and white, meaning they are either yes or no. In many cases they are no.

Keyword is not another Keyword other as . What it tells us is that it can be changed like for example <Legion> but once you do, Keyword is lost.

--

There are enough examples where we see GW having smahes fandom. I can back it up with some explicit examples if you want to. However these are examples from a narrative standpoint in other editions. Editions past and in many cases not played for a long time.

However, lets start with the start:

- Slaves to Darkness' World Eaters did have Librarians, Sorcerers if you will. While the option might have been later removed, the option was there from the getgo. So stating there are/were no World Eater Sorcerers is not factual to the content we have recieved from Games Workshop in the past:

- We then follow the rules of Chaos Space Marines as an alternate to Space Marines. No more, no less.

- The previous Chaos Space Marines Codex presented a real difference in Legion (and yes I am implying the current Index Chaos does not) was in 2002 and 2016's Trator Legions.

Keep in mind again that drastical changes have occured in this time period. E.g. the use of Marks at all:

Fast forward to 2017's Index Chaos and I see the following oddities that do not connect with the lore at all:

1. <Legion> can be replaced with anything, even non-Legion Keywords. Meaning that despite the Keyword being that it actually doesn't mean anything.

- When we look at the back of the book for the "Legions" we get 4 quick sketch ups, 2 of which make no sence because there isn't any given logical restriction (from the past). Ergo, it could have been so simple as saying in order to change <Legion> to Keyword World Eaters the unit needs to have the Khorne Keyword. (Note it doesn't say that)

- When we look at 2 other Legions, Thousand Sons and Death Guard we even see narratively logical options not being an option. Thousand Sons Keyword cannot appear on the Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch. Death Guard Keyword cannot appear on Chaos Terminators or Vindicators.

2. can be replaced on practically anything. Unlike years before regular Chaos Space Marines and e.g. Khorne Berzerkers are not the same and somehow do not suggest they can be the same either because of their drastically different profiles. Currently the Keyword has one additional reason to excist other than being a Keyword for synergy purposes and that is A BANNER.

- When we look at what Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Black Legion, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion I feel extremely sad for the players. Not only do they get a non-logical narrative Reiver at the good side of things, these true Legions arn't even represented with anything at all.

3. The suggestion is left that Red Corsairs or Fallen are actually their own Legion.

4. From Chaos Lords to Sorcerers to Warp Smiths. Some have the Keyword and some dont. Like applying abilities to models with the Khorne Keyword, if you do not have the Keyword you will not have ability X or Y. Likewise, as written on the page of World Eaters, you can sellect models from page 16 to 42, those who have Keyword have to change it to Khorne. It does not say all models with World Eaters Keyword must have Khorne Keyword. There is a small nuance in difference and the difference is there.

5. Chaos Cultists used to be part of the Alpha Legion options. Now they are available to all, even odder, they are part of the <Legion> to. The last time I checked narrative on this what constituded as a Legion member was anything but a Traitor Guard.

6. Once upon a time we too had Chaos Dreadnoughts, for whatever reason GW decided the Helbrute look would be cooler. For whatever reason the Helbrute does not have Death to the False Emperor what leaves no suggestion that it actually was a former Chaos Space Marine.

7. Chaos Obliterators and Soulgrinders used to be the example of what power Chaos Undivided (smaller Chaos Gods) could grand you. For example dedicating yourself to the Helforge instead of one of the Chaos Gods. All this previous narrative seems completely removed for both of them have a mark to choose and a regular army to follow.

8. Chaos Spawn, those beings mutated beyond reconistion apparently know fully well which Legion they belong to aswell... No narrative sence is made here. Do we see the patron?

9. Chaos Vindicators used to be an Iron Warriors exclusive, well, not anymore, because Iron Warriors as a Legion currently doesn't mean anything. Factually speaking non-Legions like Skulltakers and Red Corsairs actually mean more because they have a character that boosts models with such a Keyword. A pitty for sure.

10. There are no exclusive choices as mentioned. Currently changing <Legion> to World Eaters and other Legions means little more than changing an Elite choice to Troop. While it would have been very cool to see GW continue that parton for Raptors when <Legion> changes to Night Lords, have Word Bearers gain an extra dice on Daemonic Summoning, or many other ideas. GW simply refused it.

Many more oddities can be found when we would continue into Daemons of Chaos. Even gosh darn Furies arn't Undivided anymore.

--

Point in all of this is that RAW have nothing to do with narrative. I am not saying you should change <Legion> on the Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh to World Eaters but you can. Because the Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh does not have .

In all honesty Chaos in 40K has been neglected for years so I don't even know why some are suprised that GW stopped following their own lore completely when it goes about Chaos Space Marines.

Use rules to your advantage for matched play however.

Dude, we already went over this with you before. That is sidestepping the rules and you know it.

Even GW's Facebook page disagrees with you. And those are actual employees.

You can try to disseminate into whatever you want to make you happy, but it does not change the rules and you know it.

So stop saying its RAW when it is obviously not.

What you are trying to use as a source they themselves have confirmed is not a source for Rules Errata or FAQ.

It is RAW. It's a pitty you still fail to understand what a Keyword means.

I did not write the rules as written. I agree many of these rules make no sence in the context of narrative.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

If is in the unit profile, it should be Khorne to qualify as a <World Eaters>.

The only true part of your statement. Again keyword <Khorne> does not excist.

Another RAW:

Keyword is not the same as Keyword Fallen, Black Templars, Khorne, Catachan etc.

The few rules as written on World Eaters. Ergo, this is what you get if no-one at GW wants to spend time on Index Chaos:

1. Sorcerers are elegible choices as per <Legion> and page 16 to 42.

2. IF a unit has the Keyword it must change. If it does not there is not a single rule that states Keyword Khorne must be on the Datasheet.

3. The moment you give Khorne Berzerkers Keyword World Eaters they become Troop choices. Note: Khorne Berzerkers do not have Keyword .

The mark of chaos is denoted as a seperate Keyword by the way the RAW are written. It does not suggest marks of chaos. It says, check for Keyword . This keyword is not found on all units found on page 16 to 42.

Cheers,

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/274371-My-Face-Vs-My-Soul.jpg

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

Doggos

Reivers, Chaos Cultitsts for everybody, Obliterators in every Legion... GW loves to screw over narrative and in the process create rules that have nothing to do with the little bit of narrative we have recieved in the past :wink:

Note: I don't like it either but I have not written these rules. If anything I'd gladly open up a topic in regards to how Index Chaos basically crushes every bit of lore we used to know and love.

Sidenote: I don't even want to play Psykers. However with no alternative defence as Psykers within a Chaos Space Marine army I also know that my tournament oppontents will not follow any narrative restriction either. Applying the Keyword World Eaters or not doesn't even matter, which is the point of it not mattering in the RAW probably.

Likewise applying Black Legion, Iron Warriors or more doesn't even add anything more or less as creating Legion Salsa Balls.

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

Is not GW that loves to screw with the narrative, it is you that love to screw over the rules.

is a blank to fill with either <Khorne>, <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, <Slaanesh> or to leave it as it is, . If it's already filled with something different to <Khorne>, you cannot change it, thus no <World Eaters> for you. Because the Gods keywords a the Gods .

And <Fallen> =/= <Legion>.

Your a very strange WAAC player, bending the hell out of the rules to try to make true the false statement that "there is no narrative anymore> and yet advising against the FW goodness. You are alone here mate, and you are definitely, utterly wrong. Try to read your rulebook/index as many times as you need to understand how keywords and work, because GW already FAQ'd against the <Wu Tang Clan>.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

Is not GW that loves to screw with the narrative, it is you that love to screw over the rules.

 is a blank to fill with either <Khorne>, <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, <Slaanesh> or to leave it as it is, . If it's already filled with something different to <Khorne>, you cannot change it, thus no <World Eaters> for you. Because the Gods keywords a the Gods .

And <Fallen> =/= <Legion>.

Your a very strange WAAC player, bending the hell out of the rules to try to make true the false statement that "there is no narrative anymore> and yet advising against the FW goodness. You are alone here mate, and you are definitely, utterly wrong. Try to read your rulebook/index as many times as you need to understand how keywords and work, because GW already FAQ'd against the <Wu Tang Clan>.

Not at all mate.

I am just suprised that no-one is even talking about Cultists with Legion Keywords and Legion Keyword being used for chapters and renegades who arn't or wern't a Legion at all.

If there is so much "love for narrative" or correct design, why is it that players cannot comprehend that the rules as written allow you to change <Legion> into ANYTHING.

What you misunderstand again is that is not a blank that has to be filled in. Likewise never counts as another Keyword the moment you have replaced it. The Keyword on the datasheet is functionally removed the moment you remove it and add Khorne.

There is no rulesbending. There is 15 years of following GW and seeing them throw bad rules at Chaos Space Marines again, and over and over again. To the point where I really don't care anymore how they do it but follow the Rules as Written. These currently say to us that Keyword X is never keyword Y. The moment you can change Keyword X to Y it becomes Y not XY.

Kol Saresk · July 2, 2017

And you already know that they gave an actual answer on the facebook page.

But oh wait, they answered with "Mark of Khorne" instead of "Khorne" so you refuse to accept it.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

And you already know that they gave an actual answer on the facebook page.

But oh wait, they answered with "Mark of Khorne" instead of "Khorne" so you refuse to accept it.

And you allready know that this is not an offifical Rules Errata or FAQ awnser.

Plaguecaster · July 2, 2017

Commissar K I find it funny you quote the Warhammer Facebook page with an answer but don't show the actual question so we have no clue what you actually asked.

Yeah not an offical FAQ but even they can see the common sense with their response

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

Is not GW that loves to screw with the narrative, it is you that love to screw over the rules.

 is a blank to fill with either <Khorne>, <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, <Slaanesh> or to leave it as it is, . If it's already filled with something different to <Khorne>, you cannot change it, thus no <World Eaters> for you. Because the Gods keywords a the Gods .

And <Fallen> =/= <Legion>.

Your a very strange WAAC player, bending the hell out of the rules to try to make true the false statement that "there is no narrative anymore> and yet advising against the FW goodness. You are alone here mate, and you are definitely, utterly wrong. Try to read your rulebook/index as many times as you need to understand how keywords and work, because GW already FAQ'd against the <Wu Tang Clan>.

Not at all mate.

I am just suprised that no-one is even talking about Cultists with Legion Keywords and Legion Keyword being used for chapters and renegades who arn't or wern't a Legion at all.

If there is so much "love for narrative" or correct design, why is it that players cannot comprehend that the rules as written allow you to change <Legion> into ANYTHING.

What you misunderstand again is that is not a blank that has to be filled in. Likewise never counts as another Keyword the moment you have replaced it. The Keyword on the datasheet is functionally removed the moment you remove it and add Khorne.

There is no rulesbending. There is 15 years of following GW and seeing them throw bad rules at Chaos Space Marines again, and over and over again. To the point where I really don't care anymore how they do it but follow the Rules as Written. These currently say to us that Keyword X is never keyword Y. The moment you can change Keyword X to Y it becomes Y not XY.

No you cannot use the <Wu Tang Clan> exploit, it is FAQ'd.

Kudos for being a GW player from 15+ years, that's just an authority fallacy. But you are still a a newbie in my old eyes -which I don't try to use as false high ground ;)

Good luck playing tournaments with your shenanigans xD

Kol Saresk · July 2, 2017

Yes I do. Doesn't change the fact actual GW employees even agree with the common sense response of the rules, even if they didn't answer in a Codex update.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

Commissar K I find it funny you quote the Warhammer Facebook page with an answer but don't show the actual question so we have no clue what you actually asked.

The actual question was the one discussed here aswell.

I asked if Death Guard could recieve the World Eaters Keyword based on the fact that they have <Legion> and can be found on page 16 to 42.

However since the 40K community continiously explicitly states that they do not give out official awnsers it doesn't matter because the RAW allow for it.

What suprises me constantly is that somehow players cannot comprehend that Keywords with different names are not the same.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

No you cannot use the <Wu Tang Clan> exploit, it is FAQ'd.

Kudos for being a GW player from 15+ years, that's just an authority fallacy. But you are still a a newbie in my old eyes -which I don't try to use as false high ground

Good luck playing tournaments with your shenanigans xD

The only thing that is FAQ is that Faction Keywords thake president over Keywords that are eligible to change.

As for shenanigans, there is little to no added tactical advantage to changing Keyword <Legion> to anything in particular within Chaos.

Daemons dont care for it, CSM do. The only moment it starts to do something is with named characters.

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

You would be even more surprised when you realize that the one that cannot comprehend how keywords work is you.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

You would be even more surprised when you realize that the one that cannot comprehend how keywords work is you.

With a background in MtG and AoS it's nothing new to me. It is however very surpising that you can change <Legion> to non-Legion names. Which for the sake of narrative makes no sence.

Like Chaos Spawn following Legion specific orders or every traitor clan being able to call themselves a Legion.

Trevak Dal · July 2, 2017

With regards to Red Corsairs and such, I thought I recalled a statement by someone from gw that the Legion, Chapter, Sept, etc was a a way of personalizing your army. I figure you could count as different chapters/legions/Warband/septs if you have your own diy thing so you can use "Huron" for your Siege Dancers who are out to beat everybody to death shouting "Let the :cussing commence!" Or to use "Khârn" to represent Lord Johnny Gatt of the Saints legion, bedecked in purple with silver fluer de lis'

Now that's okay for one guy, but if you were looking for doing some 7th edition Ravenwing+Thundercav+Centurions+invisible+grav stuff (:cussery), with having "Khârn", "Huron" and "Typhus" then that's too far I'd say and why we can't have nice things because of people wanting to do :cussery.

Also, for :cusss sake man, nobody is keeping you from taking a sorcerer, they can benefit just about any army. They just can't functionally be World Eaters so your army will be Heretic Astartes not world eaters (and be functionally more similar to a Warband than a legion centric Warband)

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

With regards to Red Corsairs and such, I thought I recalled a statement by someone from gw that the Legion, Chapter, Sept, etc was a a way of personalizing your army. I figure you could count as different chapters/legions/Warband/septs if you have your own diy thing so you can use "Huron" for your Siege Dancers who are out to crush everybody to death shouting "Let the :cussing commence!" Or to use "Khârn" to represent Lord Johnny Gatt of the Saints legion, bedecked in purple with silver fluer de lis'

Now that's okay for one guy, but if you were looking for doing some 7th edition Ravenwing+Thundercav+Centurions+invisible+grav stuff (:cussery), with having "Khârn", "Huron" and "Typhus" then that's too far I'd say and why we can't have nice things because of people wanting to do :cussery.

Also, for :cusss sake man, nobody is keeping you from taking a sorcerer, they can benefit just about any army. They just can't functionally be World Eaters so your army will be Heretic Astartes not world eaters (and be functionally more similar to a Warband than a legion centric Warband)

I agree with you. But the point is RAW World Eater Legion only looks for the <Legion> keyword and does an additional check on the Keyword. These Keywords are still not more keywords as just them.

Meaning as per this:

There is nothing prefenting you from changing <Legion> to World Eaters for a Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh because the Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh does not have they Keyword.

People can be upset over this all they like. Sometimes Legion isn't even Legion and sometimes Mark of Chaos isn't a Mark at all. These are all RAW in Index Chaos.

In regards to it being written in a very rushed way, yes, yes it is. Somehow GW couldn't even be bothered to give World Eaters and Emperors Children half a page of Legion rules (because remove the image and it's less) or be bothered to give other Legions rules at all.

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

You would be even more surprised when you realize that the one that cannot comprehend how keywords work is you.

With a background in MtG and AoS it's nothing new to me. It is however very surpising that you can change <Legion> to non-Legion names. Which for the sake of narrative makes no sence.

Like Chaos Spawn following Legion specific orders or every traitor clan being able to call themselves a Legion.

No, you can't. Its in the FAQ.

Plaguecaster · July 2, 2017

Actually there is since sorcerer on steeds of slaanesh have Keyword Slaanesh which means they can't be given the world eater keyword

Kol Saresk · July 2, 2017

You would be even more surprised when you realize that the one that cannot comprehend how keywords work is you.

With a background in MtG and AoS it's nothing new to me. It is however very surpising that you can change <Legion> to non-Legion names. Which for the sake of narrative makes no sence.

Like Chaos Spawn following Legion specific orders or every traitor clan being able to call themselves a Legion.

No, you can't. Its in the FAQ.

There's a FAQ already? Is it on the GW facebook or did it upload straight to the Indexes?

Brother Aiwass · July 2, 2017

Here https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

And here is why you cannot have R&H to be <legion>:

Q: If I can choose a keyword for a unit, such as

<Regiment> for Astra Militarum, could I choose

that keyword to be, for example ‘Blood Angels’ or

‘Death Guard’?

A: No.

In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus

Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes

– neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum.

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own

and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’,

and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of

my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s

Finest’, do the abilities that work on the <Regiment>

and/or <Chapter> keywords now work on both the

Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?

A: No.

The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own

creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable

players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect

what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions

on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment.

Kol Saresk · July 2, 2017

Oh. I already see how he's going to try and sidestep them saying faction keywords are not meant to sodestep the restrictions of other chosen faction keywords by saying that since Chaos wasn't used as an example, it obviously does not apply.

Commissar K. · July 2, 2017

Actually there is since sorcerer on steeds of slaanesh have Keyword Slaanesh which means they can't be given the world eater keyword

Not the case.

The Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh does not have the Keyword. The Keyword is not a requirement either. As it would invalidate the use for a Daemon Prince who also doesn't have it.

The prime reason as to why the FAQ does not awnser this is because it's not an instance of two different Factions synergizing.

Marshal Loss · July 2, 2017

World Eaters don't have Rubricae

World Eaters don't have Sorcerers

Why is this even a discussion lol. We're better than this, come on

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World Eaters Rubicae?

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