Khornestar Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Because they probably didn't expect anyone to consider playing anything World Eaters without having a Khorne keyword, which is their Mark of Chaos. Not interested in continuing the debate about whether or not Mark of Chaos and Khorne are the same thing, but I think you understand my point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Abaia Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 With daemon princes being specificaly named as following different rules, making the rule an "IF" statement is completely unnecessary except to allow unmarked units into the World Eaters. Tell me why else it says "if"? Future proofing sounds pretty good to me, especially compared to the order of operations magic trick you are describing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Im not arguing that Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, or Slaanesh are not <MARK OF CHAOS> keywords, just that you have the option to take no <MARK OF CHAOS>, meaning the condition to "if" is never met. Â "If" should not have been included if the intent was to make having the Khorne keyword a requirement especially since there is no unit with an unassigned <LEGION> that does not have <MARK OF CHAOS> or its replacement words. Â Instead, something like "Only units with both the Heretic Astartes and Khorne keywords can have the World Eaters keyword," should have been said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 The point is every Keyword is another one if it's not the exact same Keyword. Meaning that <Mark of Chaos> Keyword checks are not made for any other Keyword as <Mark of Chaos>. - In the case of World Eaters it simply means that several units who do not have Keyword <Mark of Chaos> are skipped in a 'check' process.Likewise any check made for Black Legion is only a check made for Black Legion and not <Legion>. In that same vein the Keyword Chaos is not Keyword <Mark of Chaos>.​This could have indeed been easily solved by simply stating that all units with World Eaters Keyword must also have Khorne Keyword but that is not the way RAW have stated it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 The point is every Keyword is another one if it's not the exact same Keyword. Meaning that <Mark of Chaos> Keyword checks are not made for any other Keyword as <Mark of Chaos>. - In the case of World Eaters it simply means that several units who do not have Keyword <Mark of Chaos> are skipped in a 'check' process.  Likewise any check made for Black Legion is only a check made for Black Legion and not <Legion>. In that same vein the Keyword Chaos is not Keyword <Mark of Chaos>.  ​This could have indeed been easily solved by simply stating that all units with World Eaters Keyword must also have Khorne Keyword but that is not the way RAW have stated it. Actually, the rules for <MARK OF CHAOS> make it decently arguable that Khorne, Tzeentch, etc.. are equivelant to <MARK OF CHAOS>, although they do not explicitly say Kharns Khorne keyword IS a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword the do say that he already has a "mark of chaos" (no < > or keyword with that) assigned as denoted by the Khorne keyword.  I also dislike the ambiguous way "fill in" keywords are done. Something like "Mark of chaos: Khorne" or even "Mark of Khorne" would be better. Or "Legion: _____" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017  Actually, the rules for <MARK OF CHAOS> make it decently arguable that Khorne, Tzeentch, etc.. are equivelant to <MARK OF CHAOS>, although they do not explicitly say Kharns Khorne keyword IS a <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword the do say that he already has a "mark of chaos" (no < > or keyword with that) assigned as denoted by the Khorne keyword. I also dislike the ambiguous way "fill in" keywords are done. Something like "Mark of chaos: Khorne" or even "Mark of Khorne" would be better. Or "Legion: _____"  There are very simple examples that this is actually not the case. Point in question being Abaddon who does not have a <Mark of Chaos> Keyword but does have Keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. As before they are not the same, as given by the same set example found in the Rulesbook, page 175.  How Keyword <Mark of Chaos> can be replaced by another Keyword is exclusive to Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. The whole explanation on how Keyword <Mark of Chaos> works is exclusive to that Keyword aswell. Likewise how Keyword Chaos or Keyword <Legion> work are exclusive to them. As before, not even Keyword Chaos is the same as <Mark of Chaos>.  When we take the page in question explaining <Mark of Chaos> understand that this ONLY applies to that specific Keyword and to no other.  Legs thake page 10 and go through it again:  The first paragraph is an introduction of this keyword and other than that has no influence on rules at all because it does not reference to any keyword.  The second paragraph states that Keyword Khorne is NOT Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. E.g. Khârn. Note that the way Mark of Chaos is worded here again is not in relevance to any Keyword either. It follows up what we can do with Keyword <Mark of Chaos> as some units have the Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. What you can do with this is simply replace this Keyword for another Keyword. - There is no suggestion that these Keywords are the same, mean the same or act the same as Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. E.g. you cannot change Keyword Khorne to Nurgle. Keyword Khorne is not Keyword <Khorne>. - What is allowed for is to replace Keyword <Mark of Chaos> to another Keyword. A Keyword that is not the same because it is replaced.  Lastly it also states that we have an option to not change to another Keyword, which means it will contain the Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. Which furthermore cannot be changed within the battle again. As the replacement of this Keyword occurs when you include such a unit in your army and not during the game.  As before, no, Keyword <Mark of Chaos> is not the same Keyword as Khorne, Chaos, Daemons, <Legion> or any other that from a narrative perspective could have had a Mark of Chaos.  --  If I replace an egg with an apple, the apple is not an egg aswell. If I have an apple I do not have a egg. If I replace Keyword <Mark of Chaos> with Keyword Khorne, Keyword Khorne is not Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. If I have Keyword Khorne I do not have Keyword <Mark of Chaos>.  In additon and lastly, this whole <Mark of Chaos> rulesset only applies to those with Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. Not Khorne, Not Daemon, Not Chaos.  So when we check for Keyword <Mark of Chaos> only the Datasheets with Keyword <Mark of Chaos> are checked. Not Keyword Khorne, Not Keyword Daemon, Not Keyword Chaos etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Awright, seriuosly.  Second paragraph states (and I'll highlight that for you) that:  "Some datasheets specify the Mark of Chaos for a unit (e.g. Khârn the Betrayer has the Khorne keyword)". HERE. Read it carefully. Do it again. Khorne is a MoC, as is Tzeentch. Thus the units that have those keywords fixed CANNOT be World Eaters.  Slaanesh = Mark of Chaos Slaanesh, which cannot be switched because is fixed, so no Slaaneshi WE on steed for you. And so on.  You can replace <KEYWORDS> but not KEYWORDS. If you fail, or want to fail to understand that, then I'm sorry for you and wont waste more time on this, because you either are trolling 5/7 or just plain cheating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 I see your point, but it is suggested by the introductory paragraph that they are, allbeit VERY poorly, and the lack of a clear definition is a grievous issue with the Index. I agree it is never stated explicitly to be the same and as such, per RAW, they are not. My argumemt is that in a unit which you opt to not replace <MARK OF CHAOS> with a gods name the keyword is lost, I have published cases showing this, and therefore need not change it to Khorne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 I see your point, but it is suggested by the introductory paragraph that they are, allbeit VERY poorly and the lack of a clear definition is grievous issue with the Index. I agree it is never states explicitly to be the same amd as such, per RAW they are not. My argumemt is that a unit you opt to not replace <MARK OF CHAOS> with a gods name loses the keyword, i have published cases showing this, and therefore need not change it to Khorne. We need errata on this. For the simple reason that we have a may and must contradiction within the rules. Â However what is simpler is to have a Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh and replace it's <Legion> Keyword with World Eaters. It has Keyword <Legion> and does not have keyword <Mark of Chaos>, so another change is not required. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Where it says that if you choose not to mark a unit it loses <Mark of Chaos>? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Awright, seriuosly.  Second paragraph states (and I'll highlight that for you) that:   As can be seen in the picture above you it is not in any relation with the Keyword as the Keyword is denoted in bold lettering.  It also doesn't matter even because again not all units have Keyword <Mark of Chaos> and this is not a requirement to change <Legion> to Keyword World Eaters either.  Again, the simple approach is that which is applied to 8th edition 40k. Keyword Slaanesh is not Keyword <Mark of Chaos> and currently Keyword Mark of Slaanesh does not excist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 Brother Aiwas, the 8e Dark Vengeance update shows that the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword simply dissappears. Also, if you notice, with the exception of Abbadon who is affiliated with all the gods, all god unafiliated CSM units in the index do not have the keyword "Mark of Chaos" they simply lack a corresponding keyword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Some units SPECIFY THE MARK OF CHAOS for a unit (e.g Khârn the betrayer has the Khorne keyword)  I don't know about you but it is clearly written both RAI and RAW that Khorne is part of the Mark of chaos Keyword Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Brother Aiwas, the 8e Dark Vengeance update shows that the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword simply dissappears. Also, if you notice, with the exception of Abbadon who is affiliated with all the gods, all god unafiliated CSM units in the index do not have the keyword "Mark of Chaos" they simply lack a corresponding keyword. It's not a question of dissapearing. It also exactly says this in the rules found on page 10 of Index Chaos.  The Keyword can be replaced with another not the same Keyword .  However this only applies to models who have the Keyword <Mark of Chaos> to begin with, which again not all datasheets or units have. Some units simply have Keyword <Legion> and some do not. Some units have Keyword Khorne and some do not. There is not a "hidden Keyword" within a Keyword.   Some units SPECIFY THE MARK OF CHAOS for a unit (e.g Khârn the betrayer has the Khorne keyword)  I don't know about you but it is clearly written both RAI and RAW that Khorne is part of the Mark of chaos Keyword A written mark of chaos is not Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. Likewise Keyword Khorne is not Keyword <Mark of Chaos> which is the example given.  Do you guys stop at the first sentence of reading every rule or something?   When you include a Keyword <Mark of Chaos> unit in your army yoy can simply replace this Keyword with Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh.  There is not a single sentence that says, Keyword <Mark of Chaos> means Keyword Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 And how that applies ThanatosMalleus? Because if you're playing with <Crimson Slaughter> your aren't playing <World Eaters>, and bear in mind that's an update for an old starter set. IF CS don't have MoC is because they're not intended to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 And how that applies ThanatosMalleus? Because if you're playing with <Crimson Slaughter> your aren't playing <World Eaters>, and bear in mind that's an update for an old starter set. IF CS don't have MoC is because they're not intended to. Again there is no Keyword <Crimson Slaughter> or Keyword <World Eaters>. Â Really, read how Keyword <Legion> and Keyword <Mark of Chaos> works. What you can do is replace this Keyword for another. Other Keywords do not have this type of ability and it only applies to Keyword <Legion> and Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. Â When you replace something it is not the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/017/422/f63.png Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 2, 2017 Author Share Posted July 2, 2017 My issue is that the <MARK OF CHAOS> rules say you do not have to take a Mark of chaos for <MARK OF CHAOS> if you dont want to. The update shows units whos index entries would initially have <MARK OF CHAOS> but opted to not take one having the keyword dropped altogether. If the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword is no longer on the unit entry, it does not violate the World Eater conditions which say "IF" the unit has <MARK OF CHAOS> because the keyword is no longer on the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Â Â The fact that you dont understand what replace means, understand how Keywords work or do not understand that Keyword World Eaters is not Keyword <World Eaters> really is your problem. Again I suggest getting the Rulesbook, read how Keywords work and are denoted in bold lettering and then read Index Chaos again. My issue is that the <MARK OF CHAOS> rules say you do not have to take a Mark of chaos for <MARK OF CHAOS> if you dont want to. The update shows units whos index entries would initially have <MARK OF CHAOS> but opted to not take one having the keyword dropped altogether. If the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword is no longer on the unit entry, it does not violate the World Eater conditions which say "IF" the unit has <MARK OF CHAOS> because the keyword is no longer on the unit. Â Again go easier, apply it to units without Keyword <Mark of Chaos> such as Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeenth, Steed of Slaanesh or Palaquin of Nurgle. They all use the regular Psycic Powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 The fact that you don't understand how rules work -or actually, that you do but want to bend the hell out of them- and I'm tired of repeating myself trying to explain how it actually works so even a kiddo should understand but you fail willingly to acknowledge have actually earned you two things. Â This: Â Â And my farewell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 I dont bend any rule. Its why I post exact photocopy's of the rules. Because they are the rules as written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 You know, if you go through this thread backwards it still reads the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Abaia Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Alright cool. Have fun being willfully obstinate and rerolling your 1s to hit for your World Eaters sorcerer within 1" of Khârn. Maybe someday you will find another person who agrees with your interpretation of the rules and you can high five each other. But you sure aren't convincing anyone here.  I agree to disagree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Shouting doesn't help anybody (and yes writing caps is basically shouting...using caps with even bigger font and bold on top is even worse lmao). They obviously don't want to listen so no argument will get through to them anyway. Give it up and let them play their own version of the game. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 I wasn't shouting, consider it... extreme word highlighting :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335998-world-eaters-rubicae/page/4/#findComment-4806460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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