Played first games of 8th

[bc99]

I'm starting this topic because I've been away from the game for years. I'm back with 8th edition and it's been interesting reading the forums on various sites.

 

I just played my first games of 8th. The first "game" was really just me and my buddy with some random miniatures. He's been playing much more frequently than I, never stopping and being more active in the last couple of editions. He also plays in a bi-weekly game group.

 

Anyway this first game was a couple of tactical squads (5xmarine, sgt, plasma gun, no heavy weapon) vs. a couple of Dark Eldar units. Honestly, no idea what he had. They figures looked kind of angsty with long hair and pointy weapons.

 

The game was short and basically he just took me through the new phase, movement, shooting, and combat. We ended after a couple turns.

 

Game 1:

 

BA vs. Tyranid.  Basically his tyranid army vs. my army consisting of his extra grey marines and some of my old BA marines.

 

I chose some scouts, tactical squad, some DC, a chaplain and a priest. He had a bunch of termagants and small nids, a hive tyrant of some sort and some warriors. I could be forgetting here, there seemed to be a lot of options.

 

Anyway, basic game, just free for all again to learn the rules. 

 

My scouts and tactical squad help up the smaller creatures and my DC and chaplain jumped into their backfield. The game ended with a big fight in the backfield with his army destroying mine totally. Still had fun.

 

Game 2: Salamanders vs. gene stealer cult. One objective in the middle of the board.

 

I had basically the same load out, assault marines not dc, with no scouts and an extra tactical squad. I also had a rhino and a counts-as Vulkan. I had melta gun/flamer on the tac squads. He had a bunch of imperial guard types with some gene stealers and some dudes with extra arms and a decidedly gene stealer look, acolytes I believe. Shadow Over Insmouth vibe. His leader was the primearch/super gene stealer. 

 

This game was awesome. The gene stealers were mostly off the board at the start and used their ambush rules to come on the board. He got a really good roll with his gene stealers and basically crushed my tactical squads. I felt like I was on the defense from the start of the game. Vulkan and a tac squad with flamer did really well against his imperial guard and acolytes. Vulkan and his brave marines ended up dying under a swarm of talon and claw. Fun game all around.

 

Take aways:

 

Good:

 

I love the game. I'm happy to be back. I love the lore, I love the Blood Angels, they're my chapter! Salamanders are also wonderful, I like their background and special rules.

 

I'm waaaaay out of the loop. That's fine. Getting back will be a fun time. 

 

Bad:

 

I've been following these boards, as well as other boards. I've been following the competitive min/max players as I respect their assessment of the worth of a unit and effectiveness of those units. Friendly games aside, which I prefer, i'd like to try out tournament play. My buddy and I sat down and after a look at all the BA units it became clear (as if reading the forums wasn't enough) that points values across the board are weird when it comes to BA specific units. Especially the dreadnoughts. 

 

Army specific abilities based on named heroes. This is in regards to Vulkan and the Salamanders, so not specifically Blood Angels but still. I could only get the special rule for Salamanders when right next to Vulkan. I don't like that. I'd much rather there be points to allocate for a skill or something than need to take Vulkan every single time I wanted my melta/flamer bonus.

 

Also, apparently Salamanders can't even take heavy flamers on their tacs/devestators. 

 

So, I've got my concerns that some units are priced strangely, not as effective, etc. That being said, I had a blast. I'm glad to be back, and have been searching Ebay and scouring my old minis for potential recruits for my BA army. Hope to share the journey with everybody.

 

 

 

[CaptainHelion]

They figures looked kind of angsty with long hair and pointy weapons.

 

Shame this doesn't narrow it down much...

 

 

Jokes aside, welcome back! Glad to hear you're having fun, as that is the most important thing. Looking forwards to hearing more from you

[Ishagu]

The BA units in 8th are well priced.

The Libby Dreads are pricey but by virtue of being characters they are worth every point.

[Morticon]

The BA units in 8th are well priced.

The Libby Dreads are pricey but by virtue of being characters they are worth every point.

Damn....Ishagu - really want to hear your thoughts behind this!  Because at the moment, im thinking the first part of this couldnt be more wrong. 

 

** AC-Baal -> 142

AC- Razor -> 100 

 

You pay 42 points for +1 more wound, the ability to put on more weapons and 2d6 pick highest overcharged <_<  Keep it. 

 

** Dreads -> See Dread Comparison here --->  http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334254-dread-comparison/

 

** Death Company -> Gripes in other parts of the board, but 18 points (thats +2 on regular vets) for +1 attack on the charge only. Lower LD than vets, but a near useless 6+ "FNP".  These models become half decent when kitted with swords/hammers - but raise their cost more.  Compare this to units with the same model cost like zerkers (1cheaper with axes and all the special rules), or Deathwatch - same cost with phenomenally greater utility- even VAS work out better with their increased tankyness thanks to the shields - and for a 10 man squad that's 4 shields difference.  

 

** Sanguinary Guard - 5models for 220 - 210 if you take the cheaper plasmapistol option.  They suffer from the same issue termies have - armour modifiers and multiwound models wreck their day. One good volley from an Excorcist or a kustom Mega-kanon squad and your five man is gone.  

They started getting their cost right in 7th, and then spiked them again.   Their DS ability and movement make them a little more useable, but theyre still falling on the higher side of "well priced" 

 

 

Where I will say we are "well priced" is in most of our characters (Dante and even Sanguinor being the exception).  He's a very strong character- but, compared to the other Masters he's far more expensive. Sanguinor is also on the wrong side of costing given what he offers.   Mephy is fairly priced, Astorath is well priced, Lemmy too.  Corbulo is excellently priced.   

 

 

The second comment re: Character dread will have to see more playtesting and onboard relevance for me before I'm in the same camp as you.  I find it hideously overcosted and the limited attacks with no reroll make it a very specific tank or heavy infantry.  

 

 

[Ishagu]

I think Sanguinary Guard are totally fine.

Most anti Tank weapons will reduce their save to a 5+ which is the same as a standard Termie, except they can deepstrike in safe places and move much quicker.

 

The Razorback is potentially underpriced, but we'll see a point adjustment this year for a lot of units.

 

The Libby Dreads is great. He can cast a 4+ invul psychic power on a Landraider and advance behind one. Great support unit.

I've used a character Dread in a game as a test - not getting shot at for most of the game makes them work well.

 

Death Company, I don't know. I think they are probably better without jump packs as a unit to be transported in a vehicle.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Ishagu

[Are Verlo]

I´ll share my observations and humble optinions on this issue

Razorback vs Predator. The real issue here is the base cost (before weapons). Near identical statlines, but the predator costs way too much. The razor compares nicely and balanced to rhinos and chimeras. So I hope the razor remains priced as is and the predator gets a price reduction.

 

The SG are a mixed bag. I like them because they fit into my lists. Their reroll near a BA warlord opens up some variation in where you deploy who. Their issue is their ranged weapons. Having to equip each member with either a plasma pistol or the overpriced angelicus bolter is what moves the unit away from great. Fix the angelicus´price and they will be allright.

 

and then the DC. They used to be a powerhouse CC unit, but not a deathstar. Right now their role as anti MC anti elite is done atleast as good (probably better by vanguards). 

I love my DC with bolters and chainsword. For 200 pts you get a rather flexible anti inf/horde unit. JPA gives you the option to land in a good position if you choose to do so. Jump pack with m12" and bolters are unique to DC (BA company Vets might do so too?) and chainsword. There are few units that will clear conscripts/zombies/gaunts or even orks at their efficiency. So their role changed to be "tacticals with JP and chainsword". Go hunting light infantry and backyard campers.

[bc99]

Yeah these conversations bother me, especially in regards to a game thats supposed to be balanced. 

 

I sure had fun with the DC though, and was planning on making them my elite assault unit. I also plan on using a unit of regular assault marines as they seem cheap to go after horde units. I just don't know if they'll survive against real shooty armies.

 

How much terrain is everybody using? We used, what I'll call, a moderate amount of terrain. Definitely nothing like Mordheim or Necromunda but more than the sparsely populated boards from yesteryear. 

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Has anyone considered role in point cost? Sure the ac raz is cheaper but it is a transport first. It should be always moving which means always suffering from -1 to BS. The pred can stay put and shoot instead. Thus higher damage output=higher point cost?

[Charlo]

Has anyone considered role in point cost? Sure the ac raz is cheaper but it is a transport first. It should be always moving which means always suffering from -1 to BS. The pred can stay put and shoot instead. Thus higher damage output=higher point cost?

This has been said before, but sadly it doesn't add up.

 

Nothing stops you from keeping the Razorback still. It doesn't need to transport anything as there are no dedicated transports anymore.

 

It can even take a cheap storm bolter and HK missile for more dakka.

 

It's a predator just without the autocannon option and one less wounds but can ALSO transport models.

 

To base a units cost on what it *might* do isn't good game design.

 

It's also not limited by detachment slots.

[Cleon]

Has anyone considered role in point cost? Sure the ac raz is cheaper but it is a transport first. It should be always moving which means always suffering from -1 to BS. The pred can stay put and shoot instead. Thus higher damage output=higher point cost?

If the Razorback was paying points for that carrying capacity then I'd agree - as is it just does the Baal preds role for less points.

 

Considering as a Dedicated transport the Razorback is slot free, the only reason to take an AC Baal unless you feel like overpaying for to heavy bolters is that you're taking a detatchment that has compulsary heavy slots. The Razorback can choose to stay still if it wishes.

[tychobi]

im gonna go make a rash prediction and say that the pred prices may go up +5 points. . . with a corresponding +1 toughness.  The razor should be substantially less survivable and this would be an easy way.  Vindicator treatment.

[Are Verlo]

I thought gw said they would keep the datasheets and point separate, so they could adjust points as needed (up and down), meaning statlines are here to stay.

In this case lowering the predator´s cost to that of a razorback +5 (for the extra wound) would go a long way

 

Edit: Seems I was wrong :-) In the chaos index faq the daemon prince of chaos was reduced to 8W

Edited July 2, 2017 by Are Verlo

[Aothaine]

Something to keep in mind is that these are just the indexes. We will eventually have a codex with, hopefully, the corrections and balancing of everything. I honestly feel they did an outstanding job balancing as much as they did. Blood Angels are an amazing faction with some really cool options. 

 

The point I'm trying to get across here is instead of griping about the issues we should be constructively talking about how to balance and improve the units we all love. I have a post setup for just this.

 

Also, welcome back bc99! I just started up against myself after not playing but just keeping up with the rules for a few years. So far I love 8th ed. I've watched a lot of battle reports and plan on enjoying my first weekend of gaming next weekend. I'll have some batreps up soon after that.

 

Edit: I also wanted to mention that GW is actually working with the community to update the rules and ensure they are clear and concise as well as balanced. We should be reveling at the FAQ we just got and how fast we have received it. I give this GW the highest of praises and will gladly recommend this game to any and all people looking to start war gaming if GW keeps this up.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Aothaine