Vehicles are bad

[Gendo]

Had a couple of 8th edition games now and not liking the fact that vehicles can get locked in combat.

 

I ran 1-2 Razorbacks with AC, LRC and Las Predator with a combination of CC and small ranged units.

 

The AC does great and capable of wiping out entire units in 1-2 turns.

 

Las Predator mostly failed me getting maybe one shot off each turn and doing 1-2 damage each time, in another game I ran a Razorback with twin Las and Las squad inside with the same result, hard to hit with the thing.

 

The LRC never died on me but was pretty much useless being locked in combat and mostly down to 2-3 wounds wasn't very good at it either, plus it's a big object to move your troop around it.

 

The worst thing is that after one or two turns they all get locked into combat and pretty much useless for the rest of the game, sure i can waste a turn falling back but then i get charged again...

 

My conclusion is that vehicles supporting advancing units is a no go, disembark and move back within max range and stay there.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

[Cryptix]

....Don't shove your vehicles in front of your army?

 

I mean, Tyranids pretty much already have practice with this.

[Gendo]

....Don't shove your vehicles in front of your army? I mean, Tyranids pretty much already have practice with this.

 

I don't shove them in front but a Twin AC makes for a juicy target, 2 turns and it's surely locked in combat.

 

And makes the LRC just a resilient AC being out of range with Hurricane Bolters.

[Helscream]

This might seem a bit foolish of me but I thought vehicles could fall back just the same as any other unit. If this is true it should be easy enough to get them out of combat if they have units of infantry/jump infantry/scouts or bikes supporting them. You can move those units in the way or even charge the unit that you fell back from to stop them from charging the tank again next turn.

Overall I think vehicles are actually much better in this edition as they can fight back in combat as well as having high wounds and toughness. Without knowing your full list or what army you were facing I don't think anyone can comment on what the issue was. 

[Cryptix]

I mean as in you don't leave them out in the open - bubblewrap, terrain hugging etc.

[Kilamandaros]

Positioning is key, if you're playing a point-heavy vehicle like a LRC you know your opponent is going to try and lock it in combat to stop it's ridiculous firepower, you need to use this to your advantage. Lure their units in close, but not close enough to charge e.g. move to within 19" of a squad of Ork boys so there's no real way for them to charge you on their turn but he's likely to move up for the following turn. You won't get the rapid fire range then but still 24 (26 with stormbolter) shots will still start thinning them out - then he'll move closer into the teeth of rapid fire, at which point you unload your killsquad from the LRC (Grimaldus, Emperors Champion, Honour Guardm Apothecary & 2 squads of sword brothers works for me) unload holy hell on them in rapid range and charge what's left.

 

Don't be afraid to bubble wrap either - if they have something that can easily charge your vehicle t1 like a flyrant then position units directly around your tank to prevent the charge, they will have to charge a 5 man crusader squad instead and you can fall back and unleash hell in your turn.

[Gendo]

This might seem a bit foolish of me but I thought vehicles could fall back just the same as any other unit. If this is true it should be easy enough to get them out of combat if they have units of infantry/jump infantry/scouts or bikes supporting them. You can move those units in the way or even charge the unit that you fell back from to stop them from charging the tank again next turn.

 

Overall I think vehicles are actually much better in this edition as they can fight back in combat as well as having high wounds and toughness. Without knowing your full list or what army you were facing I don't think anyone can comment on what the issue was. 

 

 I don't want to have baby sitters for them as they area expensive on their own and the rest of the list it's CC units that want to go forward.

[Gendo]

Positioning is key, if you're playing a point-heavy vehicle like a LRC you know your opponent is going to try and lock it in combat to stop it's ridiculous firepower, you need to use this to your advantage. Lure their units in close, but not close enough to charge e.g. move to within 19" of a squad of Ork boys so there's no real way for them to charge you on their turn but he's likely to move up for the following turn. You won't get the rapid fire range then but still 24 (26 with stormbolter) shots will still start thinning them out - then he'll move closer into the teeth of rapid fire, at which point you unload your killsquad from the LRC (Grimaldus, Emperors Champion, Honour Guardm Apothecary & 2 squads of sword brothers works for me) unload holy hell on them in rapid range and charge what's left.

 

Don't be afraid to bubble wrap either - if they have something that can easily charge your vehicle t1 like a flyrant then position units directly around your tank to prevent the charge, they will have to charge a 5 man crusader squad instead and you can fall back and unleash hell in your turn.

 

As i have multiple on foot squads the LRC is delivering the "bubbles" and i need them to be there turn 1, the rest of my list wants to move forward and assault.

 

I guess an assault oriented army doesn't have much use for transport? Rather have like one Razorback delivering the elites/HQs and same heavy artillery at the back like IG.

[Stemplar]

Supplementary question. Can you, in the movement phase, fall back the LRC, then disembark troops inside so they can shoot/charge etc??

[Cognative]

Supplementary question. Can you, in the movement phase, fall back the LRC, then disembark troops inside so they can shoot/charge etc??

No, as you need to disembark before any movement. But now that all vehicles are basically 'open topped' (you can disembark from any point), you can disembark and then fall back, assuming there is room.

[Brother Talarian]

Supplementary question. Can you, in the movement phase, fall back the LRC, then disembark troops inside so they can shoot/charge etc??

 

If your LRC is in combat you can disembark your troops, provided there is room, fall back with your LRC, shoot with your troops, then charge with your troops. IMO this is one of the best ways to get your troops from point A to point B in once piece. It's unlikely the LRC will suffer very much dmg, it can then act freely and blast away it's next turn.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

Have you tried the other way and use the LRC to charge the enemy position w/ the contents following after it?

Like, purposely getting it into combat instead of moving it away from it?

 

LRCs have a few attacks, but the one thing that it can deal good damage with is the Frag Assault Launchers... it deals mortal wounds when it closes in and add in the fact that your enemy can fire overwatch at it and it has a massive surface area... so declare a multiple charge w/ it and try to engage multiple units in melee (just needs to be w/in 1") to soak up Overwatch and lock enemy units so that they'd have to fall back next turn... if the LRC fails the charge, then too bad, but hey, minimal damage :p if it makes the Assault, then lock 1-2 units in melee and charge in with your Crusaders, think of it as a 1-2 punch, with the light jab being the heavy LRC and the KO punch being the contents of the Land Raider...

 

if you're using it mainly as ranged AI support, then keep it further back and disembark as early as you can... but I usually prefer it being at the front lines, declaring Assault Charges myself and wrecking things with the Frag Launchers...

[Kastellan Kong]

Tanks have guns, so stay at max range and shoot. Why advance unless you don't have any targets?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Tanks have guns, so stay at max range and shoot. Why advance unless you don't have any targets?

 

But the Land Raider Crusader isn't just a tank... it's a bunker sized battering ram... even in 7th ed. I have a decent list of vehicles killed by ramming LRCs

 

if I want a shooting platform, I'd bring a Vindicator or a Predator instead... or Whirlwinds... Crusaders have got to be the perfect overwatch catcher... besides, if you're just going to barrel through and assault a Tau gunline eating every Overwatch on your way, you're probably only going to Assault with 2/3 of your Crusader Squad every time you get into melee range, so play it smart and use tanks as Overwatch catcher, so if the enemy runs away in his turn, you still have the Land Raider as a LOS blocker for any returning fire...

[Kilamandaros]

 

Positioning is key, if you're playing a point-heavy vehicle like a LRC you know your opponent is going to try and lock it in combat to stop it's ridiculous firepower, you need to use this to your advantage. Lure their units in close, but not close enough to charge e.g. move to within 19" of a squad of Ork boys so there's no real way for them to charge you on their turn but he's likely to move up for the following turn. You won't get the rapid fire range then but still 24 (26 with stormbolter) shots will still start thinning them out - then he'll move closer into the teeth of rapid fire, at which point you unload your killsquad from the LRC (Grimaldus, Emperors Champion, Honour Guardm Apothecary & 2 squads of sword brothers works for me) unload holy hell on them in rapid range and charge what's left.

 

Don't be afraid to bubble wrap either - if they have something that can easily charge your vehicle t1 like a flyrant then position units directly around your tank to prevent the charge, they will have to charge a 5 man crusader squad instead and you can fall back and unleash hell in your turn.

 

As i have multiple on foot squads the LRC is delivering the "bubbles" and i need them to be there turn 1, the rest of my list wants to move forward and assault.

 

I guess an assault oriented army doesn't have much use for transport? Rather have like one Razorback delivering the elites/HQs and same heavy artillery at the back like IG.

 

 

Yes you can embark the units bubbling and drive off in your turn.

[Brother Christopher]

A part of the "vehicles are bad" premise stems from our old habits. I think that vehicles do way better than in the previous edition, at least they are more durable. We just need to get acquainted with their slightly altered role.

 

But, I would dare to say that at their current pricing Drop Pods are bad. The ~100 point level is outrageously high for a unit that can hold an objective (right ?), soak some enemy fire and potentially deliver a unit to where you need it. The problem is that the last part, arguably the very purpose of a Drop Pod, may be too easily denied by a clever enemy. 9" is really a lot.

[Gendo]

Tanks have guns, so stay at max range and shoot. Why advance unless you don't have any targets?

 

Wanted to make the most of the Hurricane Bolters, that and the AC are the only performing shooting i experienced so far.

 

Also provided cover for my elites moving up behind it.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Gendo

[Gendo]

 

 

Tanks have guns, so stay at max range and shoot. Why advance unless you don't have any targets?

But the Land Raider Crusader isn't just a tank... it's a bunker sized battering ram... even in 7th ed. I have a decent list of vehicles killed by ramming LRCs

 

if I want a shooting platform, I'd bring a Vindicator or a Predator instead... or Whirlwinds... Crusaders have got to be the perfect overwatch catcher... besides, if you're just going to barrel through and assault a Tau gunline eating every Overwatch on your way, you're probably only going to Assault with 2/3 of your Crusader Squad every time you get into melee range, so play it smart and use tanks as Overwatch catcher, so if the enemy runs away in his turn, you still have the Land Raider as a LOS blocker for any returning fire...

 

That sounds good, so far I always go first in games because fast deployment and end up getting charged before i do so, will try to move in such a way that i'm the one to get the charge off even if it's a turn later.

 

 

 

 

Positioning is key, if you're playing a point-heavy vehicle like a LRC you know your opponent is going to try and lock it in combat to stop it's ridiculous firepower, you need to use this to your advantage. Lure their units in close, but not close enough to charge e.g. move to within 19" of a squad of Ork boys so there's no real way for them to charge you on their turn but he's likely to move up for the following turn. You won't get the rapid fire range then but still 24 (26 with stormbolter) shots will still start thinning them out - then he'll move closer into the teeth of rapid fire, at which point you unload your killsquad from the LRC (Grimaldus, Emperors Champion, Honour Guardm Apothecary & 2 squads of sword brothers works for me) unload holy hell on them in rapid range and charge what's left.

 

Don't be afraid to bubble wrap either - if they have something that can easily charge your vehicle t1 like a flyrant then position units directly around your tank to prevent the charge, they will have to charge a 5 man crusader squad instead and you can fall back and unleash hell in your turn.

As i have multiple on foot squads the LRC is delivering the "bubbles" and i need them to be there turn 1, the rest of my list wants to move forward and assault.

 

I guess an assault oriented army doesn't have much use for transport? Rather have like one Razorback delivering the elites/HQs and same heavy artillery at the back like IG.

 

Yes you can embark the units bubbling and drive off in your turn.

 

I mean bubbles as in buffs and not shield for the LRC, I had a spearhead with the LRC transporting 2 HQs, Apothecary and Cenobytes with two large Crusader squads advancing from each side.

 

LRC disembarked turn one from the back getting into cover, then moved the buffing units closer to their squads and moved back the LRC where it got flanked on 3 sides...

 

Writing this i guess was a better idea to advance the LRC as well as it was sandwiched between my own units...not from the front but having everything closer means I could have fallen back and charge with the Crusaders hence filling the gap.

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Acebaur

[Rustican]

I use my vehicles in the opposite manner. I disembark from my rhinos and then charge them towards gunlines to eat overwatch or towards other vehicles to keep their big guns from firing. Has worked out great against my IG and ork opponents. Edited July 4, 2017 by Rustican

[Ebon Hand]

The bottom line is that too shake our 7th edition thinking we have to imagine the vehicles being monstrous creatures with WS1 and a bunch of guns.

 

With that in mind there are situations for both advancing and keeping a distance. That is the versatility of a Land Raider: it's durable enough to ram down the enemies throat when the time is right, but armed enough to keep a distance as well.

 

Eating up overwatch is definitely a tactic, but at the same time you don't want gaunts or nurglings tying up your war machine.

 

Frag launchers are nice but situational. It's only on a 4+, so you only really want to use it vs expensive things that fear mortal wounds, otherwise it's just a bonus to charging units you want to tie up.

[Gendo]

The bottom line is that too shake our 7th edition thinking we have to imagine the vehicles being monstrous creatures with WS1 and a bunch of guns.

 

With that in mind there are situations for both advancing and keeping a distance. That is the versatility of a Land Raider: it's durable enough to ram down the enemies throat when the time is right, but armed enough to keep a distance as well.

 

Eating up overwatch is definitely a tactic, but at the same time you don't want gaunts or nurglings tying up your war machine.

 

Frag launchers are nice but situational. It's only on a 4+, so you only really want to use it vs expensive things that fear mortal wounds, otherwise it's just a bonus to charging units you want to tie up.

 

Still struggling with them, this time i managed to don't get charged with the LRC but it's a magnet for heavy fire and goes down to 2 wounds in 2 turns which makes it useless since the enemy wants to stay away from it and I only get 1 good movement phase in the game, LasPredator got again 1 shot off each turn :( and got killed in 2, Razorbacks got charged even before I used their full BS.

 

Next game will be even worst as i face a fast moving army and will be able to charge my LasPredator and Autocannon VenDread turn one if they want, will surely drop the Razorback for Rhinos and have a Techmarine by the LRC.

 

The only tactically viable distance shooting seems to be the TFC because of the Techmarine nearby but it's not great at shooting in 8th.

[Brother Talarian]

What kind of meta do you play in..? Is it competitive? I've only played 2 games so far, but vehicles in both games have always lasted a long time/long enough to do what they're supposed to do. :/

 

Perhaps I'm lucky? At least they seem to draw more fire/are not durable than in 7th imo

[Vel'Cona]

Sounds to me like you need a more diverse list.  To use a r/l example, in modern warfare "combined arms" is the premier tactic where we use the concerted efforts of aircraft, armour, and infantry to meet the demands of the battlefield.  There's no reason this can't work in 40k as well, especially with Space Marine armies that have reasonably durable infantry, flexible and also reasonably durable armour, and some of the best aircraft in the game.  This aside, here's some stuff to consider with vehicles for 8th edition:

 

- Scaling profiles DO NOT affect weapons that automatically hit.  Take a look at the TL HF Razorback or the Redeemer (in particular).

- Vehicles can Overwatch.  So while you can't fall back and shoot, you CAN react to every charge that comes in.  Once again, look to weapons that auto-hit or have a huge volume of shots.

- Vehicles can charge, providing tools to avoid enemy charges or soak Overwatch for your infantry.  In particular, the LRC and LRR have the Frag Assault Launchers which can be a nasty surprise for enemy units (just use a Command Re-roll to give them a good chance of working).

- Dreadnoughts don't have scaling profiles (other than Contemptor, though that's good for other reasons).  Consider swapping out some old standbys for a Venerable or two.

- If you're finding your Vehicles reduced to 1-2 wounds often, consider a Techmarine to pop them back into better profiles in a pinch.  They can even ride in a transport until they're needed to repair it.

- Supersonic Flyers are amazing.  Splash a Stormtalon/hawk into your list and prepare to be impressed.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Sounds like your meta is geared for heavy anti-tank fighting... you might be dealing with him wrong... I'd try to take to the skies and get some aerial support in the form of Stormraven, Stormtalon or Stormhawk, and deal with his anti-tank early if you can...

 

You might also consider trying to tie up or eradicate his anti-tank early with Deep Strikers... maybe a squad of Tactical Terminators or an Assault Squad with Plasma Pistols or Flamers if the anti-tank is all infantry... and if not infantry, then maybe a Dev Squad with Multimeltas or Lascannons in a Drop Pod?

 

If those fail, then a 2nd Land Raider would be my only suggestion... forcing them to split their fire between 2 heavy transports and making sure you measure your distances right to get the charge...

[Gendo]

Sounds like your meta is geared for heavy anti-tank fighting... you might be dealing with him wrong... I'd try to take to the skies and get some aerial support in the form of Stormraven, Stormtalon or Stormhawk, and deal with his anti-tank early if you can...

 

You might also consider trying to tie up or eradicate his anti-tank early with Deep Strikers... maybe a squad of Tactical Terminators or an Assault Squad with Plasma Pistols or Flamers if the anti-tank is all infantry... and if not infantry, then maybe a Dev Squad with Multimeltas or Lascannons in a Drop Pod?

 

If those fail, then a 2nd Land Raider would be my only suggestion... forcing them to split their fire between 2 heavy transports and making sure you measure your distances right to get the charge...

 

Not sure about the meta but they are all friendly games and rarely competitive list, doesn't help that I seem do be facing heavy hitters more often than not, I'd love a game vs other SM...

 

Always try to take out the AA but other than LasPredator which always misses I've got Assault Termis and Vanguard Vets and don't trust in making a 9" charge. Taking more MM myself thought and a Techmarine in the LRC.

 

I like the suggestion of 2 LRC and will surely be my next buy, they always avoid the one leaving me chasing around while losing wounds, I always deploy trying to balance the threat around the board but for some reason the LRC surpasses all others.