Damo1701 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Hail Frater. I've had a think, and looked at the advice given to me in other threads. Below, you'll see my collection as it currently stands, without all the Forge World goodies I either have currently, or am planning to purchase at the Open Day. Hidden Content ++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Space Marines) [339 PL, 6389pts] ++ + HQ + Captain [5 PL, 96pts]: Power fist, Storm bolter Captain [6 PL, 106pts]: Jump Pack, 2x Lightning Claw Captain in Cataphractii Armor [8 PL, 167pts]: Chainfist, Combi-melta Chaplain [6 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack Chaplain [5 PL, 79pts]: Plasma pistol Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts] Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 174pts]: Force stave, Storm shield Techmarine on Bike [7 PL, 117pts]: Bolt pistol, Power axe, Twin boltgun . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter, 2x Servo-arm + Troops + Scout Squad [6 PL, 90pts]: 5x Camo cloak . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle Scout Squad [6 PL, 90pts]: 5x Camo cloak . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout: Sniper rifle . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle Scout Squad [6 PL, 66pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer Tactical Squad [5 PL, 91pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 91pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 91pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon + Elites + Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts] Cataphractii Terminator Squad [13 PL, 220pts] . Cataphractii Sergeant: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw . Cataphractii Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw . Cataphractii Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw . Cataphractii Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw . Cataphractii Terminator w/Heavy Flamer: Heavy flamer, Lightning Claw Company Veterans [9 PL, 149pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Meltagun, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Meltagun, Storm shield . Space Marine Veteran: Meltagun, Storm shield . Veteran Sergreant: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Multi-melta Imperial Space Marine [3 PL, 60pts] Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 314pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-flamer . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-flamer . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-flamer . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta . Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta . Space Marine Veteran w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer . Space Marine Veteran w/Heavy Weapon: Meltagun . Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer Tartaros Terminator Squad [13 PL, 273pts] . Tartaros Sergeant: Chainfist, Plasma blaster . Tartaros Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair) . Tartaros Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair) . Tartaros Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair) . Tartaros Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon Vanguard Veteran Squad [15 PL, 174pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power sword . Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw . Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw . Veteran Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Power fist + Fast Attack + Assault Squad [6 PL, 96pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine . Space Marine . Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw . Space Marine w/Special Weapon . . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol Assault Squad [6 PL, 96pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine . Space Marine . Space Marine . Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol Bike Squad [6 PL, 206pts] . Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Twin boltgun . Space Marine Biker: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun . Space Marine Biker: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun . Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Twin boltgun . Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Twin boltgun Land Speeders [12 PL, 222pts] . Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter . Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter Scout Bike Squad [5 PL, 81pts] . Scout Biker: Twin boltgun . Scout Biker: Twin boltgun . Scout Biker Sergeant: Boltgun, Twin boltgun + Heavy Support + Devastator Squad [7 PL, 105pts] . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter Devastator Squad [7 PL, 180pts] . Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon Land Raider [19 PL, 356pts]: Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon + Flyer + Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 318pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 318pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 169pts]: Skyhammer missile launcher, Twin assault cannon Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 169pts]: Skyhammer missile launcher, Twin assault cannon + Dedicated Transport + Drop Pod [5 PL, 105pts]: Storm bolter Drop Pod [5 PL, 108pts]: Deathwind launcher Land Speeder Storm [5 PL, 106pts]: Assault cannon, Cerberus launcher Land Speeder Storm [5 PL, 106pts]: Assault cannon, Cerberus launcher Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannon Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannon Razorback [5 PL, 82pts]: Twin heavy bolter ++ Total: [339 PL, 6389pts] ++ Now, a few things I would like those who are able to help to think about. 1) Most of my Army is either already painted, or, at the very least, primed ready for future HHotE vows, should I have time. 2) I'm not totally for following the "meta" as it were, I like my armies to feel like mine. 3) I don't have copious spare parts anymore, one of my mates had them, or most of them when he bought my Imperial Fists. 4) For those who don't know, my Raven Guard are set in the Heresy/Scouring era, just as the Codex is being implemented. Ideally, I'd stick with that period. 5) I really would rather avoid pulling models apart, after all, we aren't supposed to need to... So, any advice on building competitive lists for 1K and 2K versus Guard and Space Marines? ++EDIT++ My 7th edition mainlist was something like the following... 1,850 Points. Talon Strike Force: Battle Demi-Company: 2x Tactical Squad (Lighting Claw Meltagun) (2 Assault Cannon Razorbacks) 1x Tactical Squad (Combi-Plasma, Plasma Gun, Imperial Space Marine) (Drop Pod) 1x Assault Squad (Jump Packs, Lighting Claw, Plasma Pistol) 1x Devastator Squad (4 Heavy Bolters) Contemptor Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Drop Pod) Ravenhawk Assault Group: Storm Raven (Lascannons Multi-Meltas) Contemptor Dreadnought (Multi-Melta) Sternguard Squad (4 Combi-Flamers, 4 Combi-Meltas, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun) Stormwing: Storm Raven (Lascannons Multi-Meltas) 2 Storm Talons (Assault Cannons Skyhammer Missile Launchers) So, something along those lines. Sometimes I switched things up for a Pinion Battle Demi-Company, trading the dreadnought for sniper scouts, sometimes I would use other Raven Guard formations like the Raptorwing or the Tactical/Scouts Skyhammer formation. Basically, I had enough there to provide an awesome amount of flexibility depending on the mood I was in, or the pre-argreed mission parameters, enabling both of us to go for mobility or defense, depending the the need. Edited July 4, 2017 by Damo1701 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Grain of salt: I have not yet played a game of 8th. However, I AM uncommonly good at theorycrafting. That said there are a few things I've picked up on. - Shrike is good. Really good. - Your plasma/combi-plasma tactical squads will be your go to guys. - Twin linked assault cannon razorbacks are nice, filling the role of transport plus horde killer nicely. - One drop pod can be useful if used correctly. One example is tgat you can stick EIGHT heavy weapons in one now. All I got for now. Hope that helps a bit. Damo1701, ONDIG and Mr. Poe 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Poe Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Claws makes some good points.As of right now its easier to be a more "shots fired" army than a "weapons drawn". The refolls to hit aura Shrike provides can be extremely deadly if used correctly and his mobility allows him to get where he needs to.Unfortunately this kinda shys away from what some people see as the staple Raven Guard tactics or unit types. Even with the rework to deep strike, assault units are difficult to use now. Even more so for chapters that had access to deep strike and charge shenanigans.I've played a few games so far but my selections of units is not as extensive as yours; I also play in a fairly soft meta. I have found that setting up one or two "fire bases" in my deployment zone to take advantage of Shrike + Primaris Lieutenant rerolls is strong. I've tried it with 20 sniper scouts rerolling failed hits and 1s to wounds and it was brutal. I've also tried the same thing with 3 land speeders and 2 storms with AC and HB loadouts. Typically keeping 15 vanguard in reserve to react to the opposing players units.Hope this helps a bit. I don't have any flyers yet but I've been hearing very good things from players IRL and on this thread. Maybe those storm talons and storm ravens could do some good work for you this edition. Edited July 5, 2017 by Mr. Poe Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Corbin Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 I like the Teleport Homer change with Terminators. It's a nice way to still use them aggressively, but have a rapid reaction force for your firebase. I am considering the Ironclad over the Contempter for dropping out of a Stormraven. The Ironclad does not degrade as he takes damage, and the revolts of 1 for having 2 CCWs is nice. Plus, his Assault Launchers cause d3 Mortal Wounds on a 4+ when charging. I am actually doing the same thing for Tactical, Plasma/Combi-Plasma riding in a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback. Damo1701 and ONDIG 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted July 4, 2017 Author Share Posted July 4, 2017 Some interesting thoughts there so far guys, thank you! I'm wary of flyers currently, after my Raven being 1 shotted out of the sky by a Leman Russ tank commander (the only type my regular opponent uses other than Pask because they have better BS...) They used to work really well previously, now, however, with only a -1 to hit, they aren't generally making their points back for me :( I might invest in a Levithan Dreadnought, to drop from the Raven, or, failing that, from a Dreadnought Drop Pod. (Plastic but purpose built to carry dreadnoughts) When playing against guard, no matter what I take, I can't inflict enough damage on any vehicles to allow me to actually survive past turn 2, or, when facing his marine forces, I'm lucky if I get a first turn, even luckier to reach a second. I've always been of the opinion that I should be making "general" army lists, rather than tailoring to what I know or suspect he'll take, however, my "balanced, general" lists are usually completely outclassed by almost anything, making it seem like tailoring is going to be the way to go, which sounds extremely unfair. However, If I run 2 Storm Ravens, 4 Tactical Squads, the Sternguard, and 2 Devastator Squads, with Shrike backing them up (possibly some Vanguard in reserve to counter anything that gets close to Shrike's position, I might be able to squeeze that into 2,000 points, especially with the scouts coming in at more points that the tactical squads. I'll have a look at the Teleport Homer rules again if I can find them. See what they say. I must have missed them previously. gabriel5885 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 On the flyers point, you should take a look at Itvyper's batrep. He had something like half a list's worth of Necrons trying to take down a Stormtalon with gauss. They failed. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 One game and one shot is not the norm, rather a really lucky moment. A second game with the same result is a coincidence, a third game is a pattern. So they say. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 Well, after reading the advice so far, and looking at my model collection, I have come up with the following lists. The first at 2K points, and the second at 1K/50PL. Hopefully, one, or, both of them will see the table today, so I should be able to post a report or two. 1st up, the 2k list. Hidden Content ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [105 PL, 1995pts] +++ HQ +Chaplain [6 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump PackKayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]+ Troops +Scout Squad [6 PL, 66pts]. Scout: Boltgun. Scout: Boltgun. Scout: Boltgun. Scout: Boltgun. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamerTactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gunTactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gunTactical Squad [5 PL, 91pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun+ Elites +Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 314pts]. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-flamer. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-flamer. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-flamer. Space Marine Veteran w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer. Space Marine Veteran w/Heavy Weapon: Meltagun. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer+ Fast Attack +Assault Squad [6 PL, 96pts]: Jump Pack. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw. Space Marine w/Special Weapon. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistolAssault Squad [6 PL, 96pts]: Jump Pack. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol+ Heavy Support +Devastator Squad [7 PL, 165pts]. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: LascannonDevastator Squad [7 PL, 105pts]. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter+ Flyer +Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 318pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Stormstrike Missile LaunchersStormraven Gunship [15 PL, 318pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers++ Total: [105 PL, 1995pts] ++ Now, the 1K/50PL list. Hidden Content ++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [50 PL, 908pts] +++ HQ +Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]+ Troops +Scout Squad [6 PL, 90pts]: 5x Camo cloak. Scout: Sniper rifle. Scout: Sniper rifle. Scout: Sniper rifle. Scout: Sniper rifle. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifleTactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gunTactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun+ Fast Attack +Assault Squad [6 PL, 101pts]: Jump Pack. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw, Melta bombs. Space Marine w/Special Weapon. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistolAssault Squad [6 PL, 101pts]: Jump Pack. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Melta bombs, Plasma pistol+ Heavy Support +Devastator Squad [7 PL, 110pts]: Armorium Cherub. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolterDevastator Squad [7 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon++ Total: [50 PL, 908pts] ++ As you can see, I've hit the PL target, but, am still 100 points off the 1K I was looking for. Which raises interesting questions, as I was under the impression people were avoiding the PL system due to "free" upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Good point about the PL and "free" stuff. Yet, I think the point of that method of play is not to be used competitively. So, the stuff is not meant to be consequential. It's my personal opinion PL also allows one to try stuff without the mental commitment that points need, while also not committing to making models for stuff that may look good on paper, but is actually not that great in action (look at the current AM thread in Astartes for the back and forth about their loadout). Damo1701 and ONDIG 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4808818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Inceptors are pretty neat and cheap as chips on ebay. They put out a lot of dakka. Think of them as a cross between heavy bolter devs and assault marines that cost very little $$$. If you hate orks/nids/guard and want to keep your wallet out of the eye of terror... grab a few inceptors. Nusquam and Damo1701 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4809533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Don't you feel 225 points for 3 models/6 wounds is a bit steep? I mean, I get they're 18 HBolter shots, but still... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4809555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Don't you feel 225 points for 3 models/6 wounds is a bit steep? I mean, I get they're 18 HBolter shots, but still... Not really. They dont(shouldnt) start on the table so you always get 1 round of shooting at the very least. Str 5 and high volume means they can do dmg to pretty much anything. Obviously theyare best against orks/nids/guard but also marines. 18 shots is a lot and the models are tough. They can fall back from combat and still shoot and tie up units lin the fight phase like devs or tanks. The real selling point is their current dirt cheap price on ebay. Why not experiment with them if they cost only 15-20 bucks for a unit of 3? I'd much rather paint/play with inceptorss than some bs like a termy captain that is like 30 bucks for 1 model. DERP :< These guys might not make hard as nails tourney lists but their $$ cost to benefit ratio is exceptionally good at the moment. Mr. Poe 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4809580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Don't you feel 225 points for 3 models/6 wounds is a bit steep? I mean, I get they're 18 HBolter shots, but still... Not really. They dont(shouldnt) start on the table so you always get 1 round of shooting at the very least. Str 5 and high volume means they can do dmg to pretty much anything. Obviously theyare best against orks/nids/guard but also marines. 18 shots is a lot and the models are tough. They can fall back from combat and still shoot and tie up units lin the fight phase like devs or tanks. The real selling point is their current dirt cheap price on ebay. Why not experiment with them if they cost only 15-20 bucks for a unit of 3? I'd much rather paint/play with inceptorss than some bs like a termy captain that is like 30 bucks for 1 model. DERP :< These guys might not make hard as nails tourney lists but their $$ cost to benefit ratio is exceptionally good at the moment. That's all fair. On a small related side note. Shrike buffs them with Winged Delivered ce as well. Cutesy but fun. I got the starter, I'll have to put em together and give em a whirl. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4809876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 - One drop pod can be useful if used correctly. One example is tgat you can stick EIGHT heavy weapons in one now. This changes everything. Two dev squads in pods is amazing. Also I echo the love for Inceptors. With Shrike or Issodon near them they lay down a lot of hate. SanguinaryGuardsman and Mr. Poe 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4809881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 Ok, in preparation for the Forge World Open Day, I have just placed a hefty order for the bits I want to be guaranteed to be able to get is now sorted. Most of the order was for a friend who wanted some chaotic ogryns for his army, while mine was for a Sicarian Punisher, and a Vindicator Laser Destroyer. Both were chosen over other vehicles like the Land Raider Achillies and Predator Executioner, mainly from the rules available. I think that if I get these up and running quickly enough, then I should see some turnaround in my games of 8th edition. So, fingers crossed, there will be some action from the Raven Guard again that doesn't end in utter humiliation and a throwing of one's new rule book across the room. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4819033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 The Laser Destroyer looks utterly sexy on paper. Do share it's use! Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4819060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAR Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Race Bannon and Damo1701 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4819103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 I'm wavering on the 8th edition issue again brothers. It's basic things like multiple shots where there should have been a single, flamer weapons automatically hitting flyers, and the "everything wounds everything" mechanics, without even getting to the Guard being able to ignore many of the basic rules automatically. Sure, using the "leaked" chapter tactics worked a little, my devastator squad survived past my opponent's first turn for a change. However, in this edition, firing after falling back, shooting with lasguns after running, and hellhounds trying Storm Ravens is far too much now, including 26 guys getting over 100 shots! I'm talking loathing this edition, despite giv8ng it a good go. I mean, guard tee shirts are able to flick bolter rounds off completely?? It's boring now, and I don't know how to save my gaming side... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4827047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Not sure what to say there tbh. Other people can't really make you like it Can you just elaborate though on a few bits to see if i can address them? - "Multiple shots where it should be a single". What does this mean? - Hellhounds frying Storm Ravens. They really shouldn't be....they only average about 1.17 wounds per shot against a Storm Raven with the Inferno cannon (it is T7 right? Not got my book handy.....if it's T6 they average 1.75 wounds per shot). - "Everything wounds everything". What about this do you dislike? It has helped balance stuff like Knights and superheavies quite a bit. What is it that you hate? - "26 guys with over 100 shots". yes, thats brutal. IG infantry are hardcore now. However, lets maths it. 100 BS 4+ shots = 50 hits. 50 las hits against Marines = 16.67 wounds. That averages 5.5 unsaved wounds against power armour, which is a good number. However, those 26 men die if you look at them funny in return, and cost more than 5.5 Marines (this is 3.7 wounds if it's Conscripts firing). These figures aren't taking the RG -1 into account of course, since to get that 100 shots they must be under 12" anyway. For reference those same guys at over 12" = 1.85 or 0.92 for Guard/Conscripts respectively. Ultimately you aren't "wrong", because not liking it is purely personal opinion. But perhaps it seems worse than it is? Give a bit more detail and we'll see if we can provide some context Edited July 21, 2017 by Extropian Race Bannon 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4827101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
temneb Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) I played a guard army with my SW the other day. I didn't have an issue. The guard where still squishy. It was a close game, I lost by 1 point, but one more turn I would have tabled him. I agree the flamer flyer thing, but that's about it for me. This ed has brought me back to 40k. Bad match up maybe? He got really lucky with some dice? Edited July 21, 2017 by temneb Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4827167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 Former template weapons gaining repeated hits against single models due to the removal of templates. That doesn't really make sense. Inferno Canon is Damage 2 per unsaved wound. And at minus 2, that gives a Storm Raven a 5+ save... Everything wounds everything.. . It breaks the immersion factor considerably. Lost a wound on my Storm Raven to a fricking lasgun... that makes no sense whatsoever... I've tried to enter this edition, despite the pre-release discussions, as though it's a new game, which, in reality, it is. Yet, the more I've played against it, the worse it has gotten. Maybe I'm missing something somewhere...? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4828207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Yep, factored that for the Inferno cannon...3.5 shots average, wounds on 5+, saves on 5+, 2 damage....averages 1.55 wounds per inferno cannon. It's just not very much. I did however get my earlier maths wrong as thought it was -1 save, but still. I like the "everything can be wounded" aspect. Better for balance, and great for those story moments where the day is saved by a single man firing his last shot. In the case of your Storm Raven, maybe the lasgun nicked a fuel line, or damaged a control surface, or just found a tiny flaw in the armour. It happens all the time in books. Maybe you just don't enjoy it as much. Not all games appeal to all people. I for example hated the previous 2 editions so much that I quit playing and sold all my stuff. Ended up playing a ton of Infinity instead.... Or maybe you're having a run of awful luck. Stormravens especially are absolutely dominating the competitive scene right now, to e point at they are widely considered badly overpowered for their cost. You shouldn't be getting smashed THAT badly with 2 of them, unless it's sheer misfortune or a rule is going wrong somewhere. I hope it grows on you, it's a shame when an edition change ruins a game for someone. It does happen though, and there's nothing wrong with just realising that maybe it's not for you right now. Just....don't sell your stuff like I did, because you'll notice I'm now back and have had to start from scratch :p Andrés Pacheco and Shadow Captain Vyper 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4828230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrés Pacheco Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) EDIT: freakish, near word for word ninja'd :) Former template weapons gaining repeated hits against single models due to the removal of templates. That doesn't really make sense. Inferno Canon is Damage 2 per unsaved wound. And at minus 2, that gives a Storm Raven a 5+ save... Everything wounds everything.. . It breaks the immersion factor considerably. Lost a wound on my Storm Raven to a fricking lasgun... that makes no sense whatsoever... I've tried to enter this edition, despite the pre-release discussions, as though it's a new game, which, in reality, it is. Yet, the more I've played against it, the worse it has gotten. Maybe I'm missing something somewhere...? Idk, concentrating a flamer on a single target for 10 seconds feels like it would hurt more than spraying back and forth over multiple targets....personal feeling of course. Inferno Canon is D6/6/-1/2 so really shouldn't be bothering Ravens too much, just a harsh day on the dice for you I guess. I personally like the wound rules, gives that rare chance to hit some battle-exposed gubbins, have a really good day, be a hero in the making etc. It won't happen with any regularity, but will make for an occasional talking point. I suppose in a match where an inferno canon ruined your flyers, it's harder to see the enjoyable side of the rule :) Maybe just give yourself a bit longer to really get to grips with it (would help with accurate weapon stats etc), and now new stratagems are coming out, it might offer you some different angles to support your favoured play-style? Edited July 22, 2017 by Andrés Pacheco Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4828238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 If I'm honest, I also firmly believe that all the Marine vehicles are severely over-costed in points at the moment. 7th edition, I could field a Raven Guard battle demi-company, with transports, plus other vehicles without any "free" units. Now, I am lucky if I can fit 2 vehicles in 2k points, much less the variety of vehicles I am used to using to support my infantry. Besides... I've never seen a ground-based flame weapon have any effect on a plane of any description... Get this, I used my Raven to block LoS, and my opponent complained that it was a flier, then couldn't understand why I wanted flame weapons to be out of range of it, because it's a flier... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4828253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrés Pacheco Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 If I'm honest, I also firmly believe that all the Marine vehicles are severely over-costed in points at the moment. 7th edition, I could field a Raven Guard battle demi-company, with transports, plus other vehicles without any "free" units. Now, I am lucky if I can fit 2 vehicles in 2k points, much less the variety of vehicles I am used to using to support my infantry. I think you're half right here. An infantry heavy list will struggle to fit a lot of vehicles into 2k points, but you can get a good variety in if you sacrifice some bodies, so more of an either/or situation than not possible. Completely agree that is a change from last ed, and I can see how that can be frustrating, and take some time to acclimatise to. Besides... I've never seen a ground-based flame weapon have any effect on a plane of any description... Clearly, you've never visited the 40th millennium :) Get this, I used my Raven to block LoS, and my opponent complained that it was a flier, then couldn't understand why I wanted flame weapons to be out of range of it, because it's a flier... That just sucks, and seems to be a case of advantageous jurisprudence. Have a word with your opponent, or just play someone who isn't a chode :D Darkthorns and Damo1701 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336142-help-a-brother-with-8th-edition/#findComment-4828267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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