Help a Brother with 8th Edition?

[Extropian]

NStormravens are so ar from being overcosted it's not even funny. There's a reason they are crushing all tournaments right now. The ETC lists feature 206 of them....

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

NStormravens are so ar from being overcosted it's not even funny. There's a reason they are crushing all tournaments right now. The ETC lists feature 206 of them....

Yeah and that was only in the top 2 lists! *RIMSHOT

[Die4Emprah]

To the OP: 
I play RG Space Marines, and DKoK/Astromil. 
Trust me, the getting a save VS a bolter isn't a huge boon. SM will hit more often, wound more often. And generally shred GEQ.

 

Things I like as a SM but hate as an Astro-mil:
Thunderfire Cannons
Whirlwind missile launcher

Assault marines (RUN AWAY!!!)
Dev squads with missile launchers (effective as frag and krak). 

When I play as Space Marines, I rarely use 5 man squads. So having 5 ablative wounds on my dev squads works out fine. 

While plasma seems to be the flavor of the day, my heart still rests with Melta, and boy.. do the Russ's hate melta. Everything else a marine has can SHRED guard. Bring orange fire for the tanks. Unless you're playing against a stormlord or some other gnarly SH focus more on being able to deal with large amounts of GEQ.  
When I play as Astro-mil, I bring 3 full force conscript squads. You need enough dakka/close combat to kill 150 goons. Let that be your compass. 

 

Ave Imperator

[Damo1701]

Ok, I have a game lined up for sometime today.

 

This is what my list looks like so far:

 

Captain 88

Powerfist, Storm Bolter.

 

Lieutenant* w/Jump Pack 90

Twin Lightning Claws

 

Tactical Squad 93

Plasma Gun, Combi Plasma

 

Tactical Squad 93

Plasma Gun, Combi Plasma

 

Scout Squad 90

Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

 

Contemptor Dreadnought 163

Kheres Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Combat Weapon

 

Sternguard Squad 314

+5 Marines, 4 Combi-Flamers, 4 Combi-Meltas, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer

 

Assault Squad w/Jump Packs 95

Plasma Pistol, Lightning Claw

 

Assault Squad w/Jump Packs 95

Plasma Pistol, Lightning Claw

 

Devastator Squad 165

4 Lascannon

 

Relic Landraider Proteus 381

2 Twin Lascannon, Twin Heavy Bolter

 

Stormraven Gunship 318

Twin Lascannon, Twin Multi-Melta, 2 Stormstrike Missile Launchers

 

Total: 1985.

 

Thoughts:

 

The captain will hang back with the devastators, providing the re-roll they may need, I may hide the LT there too, as rerolling 1's to wound isn't to be sniffed at with a lascannon.

 

The devs will bunker up in the piece of terrain that offers the best view of the battlefield, and will be well outside the 12" for the chapter tactics to activate.  The scouts may support them and provide some interesting anti-character fire.

 

I'm thinking, for giggles, of having the sternguard, in combat squads, inside the Landraider, while one of the assault squads and the dread ride the stormraven.  The other assault squad, I'm thinking, might SftS, possibly with one of the sternguard demi-squads, but haven't decided yet.

 

Main targets to neuter the opponent:

 

Hellhounds - those things are stupidly stupid in this edition.  Hitting fliers automatically...  

Leman Russ Battle Tanks - As always, these will also be tank commanders, purely because their ballistic skill is better...  No fluff aspect to that army writing...

Conscripts - These are always a sticky subject.  Sure, they require a 5+ to hit, (6+ with our CTs), but with 40 or 50 of them, also doing FRF, SRF, or running and shooting, they add up to many casualties.

Commissars/Commanders - Let's get rid of this moral/order boost for the conscripts via snipers.  Need to roll more 6's though for those mortal wounds.

 

Hopefully, we'll play a maelstrom of war mission today, which could save my bacon, depending on which one we draw.  I can usually out move a guard army, even with limited transport capacity.

 

I am mainly trying to win a game before I go to the Forgeworld open day, when I can pick up my Sicarian Punisher, and Vindicator Laser destroyer...  Those should find a decent home in my list somewhere...

Edited July 31, 2017 by Damo1701

[Die4Emprah]

Focus on the LeRu first with lascannons and air support (most threatening ones first, or the warlord).
Once that's dead, your flyer is less valuable, if it's still up, start hacking at the hellhounds from range. 

If he's smart, he'll take out your devs, then maybe a toss up between your flyer and LandRaider. 
 

If he's only taking one conscript squad, it's not a threat, and you should be able to put that down with hot bolter death. (2 tac squads and a sterngard? sure, especially with the flamers) 

He will likely hide his Kommissar behind his tank(s), and never let you see it. Prepare for that, Take a missile launcher with the scouts.

[Damo1701]

Ok, the Hellhounds being used as anti-air are really starting to get to me, as are First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire conscripts bringing down Landraiders....

 

So, against my better judgement, I have begun looking at my Fists of Corax as a major counter to the shenanigans that the guard are bringing to the table until the codex comes out.

 

Here is an army list, based on the Dark Imperium box, with a couple of upgrades/new units.

 

++ Battalion Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [81 PL, 1495pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain in Gravis Armor [7 PL, 137pts]: Boltstorm gauntlet, Master-crafted power sword, The Santic Halo

Primaris Lieutenants [10 PL, 148pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle
. Primaris Lieutenant: Power sword

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Scout Squad [6 PL, 62pts]: Camo cloak
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 129pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 129pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

+ Fast Attack +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 180pts]: Assault bolter, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 180pts]: Assault bolter, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma Incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Total: [81 PL, 1495pts] ++

 

With any luck, this should give me more staying power, and make use of both the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics and the strengths of the Primaris.

 

Failing that, I do have an alternate list for the Raven Guard to use, where, with some minor adjustments, I can field a Fire Raptor and a Land Raider Proteus...  However, the odd thing is that my opponent seems to think the FIre Raptor is overpowered....  Which is a tad odd, considering he never runs Leman Russes, just Tank Commanders, uses Chimeras and Hellhounds as anti-air, and is able to fall back from combat, then open fire, or run and fire, and pretty much ignores morale....

 

When I've been writing my lists, I've been trying to build as balanced a list as possible, while staying within the lore of the chapter.  Perhaps that's been my mistake, in wanting to field fun lists, while facing overpowered, power-gamer level lists, that are being touted as "balanced".

 

New army that I face now.

 

Pask in LR Battle Tank - Lascannon/Heavy Bolters

2 Tank Commanders - LR Battle Tank - Lascannon/Heavy Bolters

2 Company Commanders

2 Commissars

2 Priests

Primaris Pskyer (The guard guy not a Primaris marine)

4 Infantry Squads - Heavy Bolter/Plasma Gun

2 x 40 Conscripts

2 x Bullgryns

2 Chimeras - 2 Heavy Flamers

2 Hellhounds - Heavy Flamers

 

Commissars and Commanders mix into the Conscripts squads

Priests ride the Chimeras with the Bullgryns (Though, when I nuked a Chimera yesterday, he got cross and said he was going to replace those with Valkyries)

Infantry Squads spread out behind the conscripts

Pask forms a "squadron" with the tank commanders, and orders them around

Hellhounds are used to flame any fliers that get close (Easy to do when playing on a 6x4 board, might have to find a way to play 6x6 instead...)

 

Games go the same way, regardless of how I deploy, move, plan or whatever.  The conscripts ignore morale, and either run and shoot, or get charged, fall back, and shoot. The Hellhounds knock whatever flyer there is out of the sky and then go on to roast other vehicles.  Lasguns taking wounds off landraiders does my head in, as does guardsmen shrugging off bolter fire like its lasfire.

 

It looks like the biggest issue I'm having is trying to be tactically flexible, by taking both anti-armour and anti-infantry.  Perhaps I need to specialise a bit more.  

 

Ideas:

 

Ignore the armour, and concentrate to killing troops choices like the guard squads and conscripts.

Ignore the infantry, and concentrate on taking out the armour choices, while running tactical squads around claiming objectives with their special rule that means they can't be outnumbered off an objective (yet).

 

Personally, I feel there is a long way to go with the core rules of 8th edition before they become fun for everybody.  So, I'll attempt to stick with it, until I have the Primaris marines where I want them with the above list, and the goodies I have waiting for me to collect next week at the Forgeworld Open Day.  If neither of those options providex any help, then I guess I'll just have to suspend the gaming aspect until the next general rules update, and see what changes then.

[Claws and Effect]

Personally, I'd just quit playing that guy.

 

I mean, if he's going to bring thst stuff and call it balanced, but then say a Fire Raptor is overpowered, he clearly doesn't care if you're having fun with the game.

 

If he's the person you usually play, I can see why 8th is leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

[Damo1701]

Personally, I'd just quit playing that guy.

 

I mean, if he's going to bring thst stuff and call it balanced, but then say a Fire Raptor is overpowered, he clearly doesn't care if you're having fun with the game.

 

If he's the person you usually play, I can see why 8th is leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

 

Cheers.  I'm not quite sure what else to try, however, I think tomorrow my Fire Raptor is going to get a new paint job...   Then, we will see just how "balanced" my next list versus his can be.

 

I am somewhat excited by the idea of getting my Vindicator Laser Destroyer and Sicarian Punisher.  If those can turn the tide on their own, then, sure, the Fire Raptor will get shelved again for a while.  Otherwise, I'll try the terrible trio...  That should put a dent in the troop numbers.

 

Yeah, he is the guy I usually play, mainly as I can't get to GW to face other people, due to looking after the kids while the wife is at work.  Though, I might reach out to another mate, and see if he's up for a game any time soon.

[Altasmurf]

First I'd double check his math. Without up grade his list is clocking in at over 1700 points. Your list you have at 1500. But understand that guard eat primarus for breakfast. Any elite army will always struggle vs. Guard. Also to be honest his list is hardcore but it's not the be all and end all. And honestly it does represent a fairly fluffy guard list.

 

Right now though guard are a tough match for marines, even more so for primaris.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Altasmurf

[Damo1701]

First I'd double check his math. Without up grade his list is clocking in at over 1700 points. Your list you have at 1500. But understand that guard eat primarus for breakfast. Any elite army will always struggle vs. Guard. Also to be honest his list is hardcore but it's not the be all and end all. And honestly it does represent a fairly fluffy guard list.

 

Right now though guard are a tough match for marines, even more so for primaris.

 

Sorry, I might have confused things a bit.

 

The listed Primaris army is one I am building/planning.  I've been facing him with 2k points of Raven Guard.

 

Fluff issues I have with his list are niggly little things, like taking Hellhounds/flamer Chimeras purely for Anti-air capabilities, rather than Hydras.  Taking Pas and two Tank Commanders, rather than Pask and 2 Leman Russes.  Taking just about a Platoon's worth of troops, but 2 company commanders, because they can issue two orders a turn.  You know, pushing the boundaries of the fluff to breaking point, in order to gain a distinct advantage on the table.

 

Now, compare that to my theme behind the Raven Guard.  I have a during/post-Heresy styled force (Where some 40K era vehicles are used to represent Heresy era counterparts, just using the rules available).  That's why I haven't got Centurions, Hunters, Stalkers, LR Crusaders/Redeemers, Ironclad Dreadnoughts and whatever else is the mainstay of 40k over 30k.

 

How do I justify the 5-man squads?  Simple.  The Raven Guard are a severely understrength legion.  Therefore, they have spread themselves out thinly to fight the wars they have to.

 

Now, with the 8th edition codex, and the introduction of Lieutenants, I can field a force that feels like a Heresy-Era force, which is awesome.  Sure.  I do use the Shrike rules if I want to field a Chapter Master (Now) for the Raven Guard.  But it isn't Shrike.  The name changes on occasion, depending on casualty taking etc.  This also explains the presence of some "Post-Heresy" equipment, like Razorbacks, mounting "Kheres" assault cannons on Rhinos for example, to replace marine casualties etc.

 

My usual lists are listed in the thread, and I have agonised over taking my Fire Raptor, due to complaints that it could be "OP" since I armed it with the Quad Heavy Bolter sponsons.  Ah well, I think I may just have to look at pairing a Fire Raptor with a Stormraven (Since I doubt I'll ever get a Stormbird/Thunderhawk) as well as my Landraider...  We'll see how that goes... LOL.

[Altasmurf]

Ah I get it. So to make sure basically you're playing a narrative game and he's playing a matched game. Honestly next to a frank discussion with the guy about how your style clash there won't be much you can do. Also fluff as always is in the eye of the beholder. He could easily fluff up an explanation for his units. Really all you can do is explain that the style of list he's playing as you have done. And neither of you is wrong to be honest. The best suggestion I can come up with is limit your selves to a single detachment. Our group is doing something similar (fill a detachment before starting a new one) and it has lead to much more balanced forces.

[Damo1701]

Yeah, I've tried that repeatedly.  All it led to was a cheesier list than I've ever seen.

 

I'm all for close and tactical games, they are the most enjoyable.  As much as I despise the power-gamer aspect, I think I might have to work at it if I am going to continue to play 8th edition.

 

I will knock up a few lists, and see what works on paper, and what could give me an edge on the table.  Though, in the morning, the Fire Raptor is getting a new paint job...

[Claws and Effect]

It IS possible to combine power gaming and fluffy in the same list. I take that approach in almost every game I play.

 

Question 1: What is appropriate for the army/faction/character I'm playing?

 

Question 2: How can I get the most powerful or effective setup with it without violating the spirit of Question 1?

 

Since your Ravens are set in the Scouring, it is absolutely appropriate for them to still make heavy use of Crusade era equipment. They still have a significant amount of it to use.

 

If you bring a bunch of Forge World 30k stuff, no one can accuse you of power gaming, since your particular force would have tons of that stuff available.

[Claws and Effect]

How about a 10 man Sternguard squad with 9 combi flamers and a heavy flamer?

 

SftS them somewhere they can get to within 8" of the Conscripts from and light em up. 10d6 auto hits plus 18 bolter shots at 4+ to hit should thin them out pretty good.

 

Then charge whatever is left for 22 attacks. (Yes, with Sternguard).

[Damo1701]

It IS possible to combine power gaming and fluffy in the same list. I take that approach in almost every game I play.

 

Question 1: What is appropriate for the army/faction/character I'm playing?

 

Question 2: How can I get the most powerful or effective setup with it without violating the spirit of Question 1?

 

Since your Ravens are set in the Scouring, it is absolutely appropriate for them to still make heavy use of Crusade era equipment. They still have a significant amount of it to use.

 

If you bring a bunch of Forge World 30k stuff, no one can accuse you of power gaming, since your particular force would have tons of that stuff available.

 

That's a very good point there.

 

I am thinking of pairing up the Fire Raptor with the Sicarian Punisher.  If I can squeeze it in too, the Vindicator.

 

I'm probably going to pick up some Plasma Cannons, and use some of my Mk III marines (Patched up armour and what-have-you) to make some extra demi-squads, so that I could possibly field 6 10-man squads, if I decide to cut the vehicles out for a game or two, or for larger point games.

 

What I've begun to do while applying Transfers, is to mix both Heresy markings and the latter Codex markings.  Seeing as it's not "SOP" yet for the codex to be rigidly adhered to, for my force, the mix of markings looks fairly decent.

 

I have 10 sternguard currently, 4 combi-flamers, heavy flamer, 4 combi-meltas, meltagun.  Now, the flamers did fairly well when I used SftS against the conscripts, while the meltas went for the hellhounds.  The meltas didn't perform overly well this time round though.  The ensuing combat went as expected...  Not many casualties doled out in comparison to shooting, then being left after the conscripts left combat etc.  However, I might just look at either using more Mk III marines as Sternguard too (I have more combi-weapons) just to have that option.

 

Great ideas, cheers :)

[Claws and Effect]

Also, Shrike (or counts-as) with 10 Vanguard Veterans with dual claws absolutely MURDERS infantry.

 

StfS them so they can move close enough to guarantee the charge range and charge with Shrike first....because his Warlord Trait disallows Overwatch.

 

They'll just fall back from combat and shoot them to pieces?

 

Not if you also StfS a couple assault squads and move them so there's nowhere they can fall back to.

 

Then when your opponent has a fit because your Sternguard just flamed a bunch of dudes to death and Shrike and your Vanguard just did the same on the other flank, use the fact that he is probably going to shoot in that direction with everything that can to take objectives and focus heavy weapons on his tanks.

 

Use your contemptor more aggressively too. Don't be afraid to charge a tank with it. Especially if you've already softened it up with the 6 lascannons, 2 multimeltas and 2 Stormstrikes you can throw at it.

 

All the while your Tactical Squads are claiming objectives and your Scouts are sniping characters.

 

If your opponent is winning by doing what Guard are good at, stop being so affable and do what Raven Guard do best. Distract. Misdirect. Then surgically remove units while he's focused on something else.

[Damo1701]

Hmm... I think I need 2 boxes of sanguinaey guard and 2 boxes of Vanguard Veterans... or possibly 2 Dark Fury squads will be cheaper...

[Claws and Effect]

Dark Furies will probably be cheaper indeed.

 

Worth noting though that twin claw Vanguard aren't that awesome against tougher targets. Choose what you charge with them carefully.

 

You could also play your opponents game against him. Hit his tanks with 10 combi-flamers. Low chance to wound, but that's a lot of potential hits to force saves with.

[Damo1701]

That's a possibility.

 

Until I have been to Forgeworld, I will see what the Fire Raptor can do.

 

I have primed it, and added some finishing touches to my latest pledge, so, new vow in the Morning, and hopefully a quick paint job on the Raptor...

[Claws and Effect]

The Fire Raptor should go through infantry like prunes through a short grandmother.

[Damo1701]

That's the idea.

 

I must say, it looks far more imposing in Raven Guard black than Imperial Fist Yellow...

 

With any luck, it should be painted by Friday...

[Claws and Effect]

Most things are scarier when painted black.

 

Just ask Batman.

[Shrieker]

posting here as it seems like the most on-topic place

is there a 'tank shock' mechanic in 8th? or is a land raider running in a guardsman effectively 'stopped' in his movement 1" away from a guardsman, with the option to charge it in charge phase?

[Claws and Effect]

The latter.

 

Tank shock is gone as far as I know.

[duz_]

posting here as it seems like the most on-topic place

is there a 'tank shock' mechanic in 8th? or is a land raider running in a guardsman effectively 'stopped' in his movement 1" away from a guardsman, with the option to charge it in charge phase?

No more tank shock, which is a bit of a bummer because it was a great tactic for clearing space. So what you asked / stated is correct.

 

Any luck with opponents Damo? Sounds like you two are chasing different style games and you should look elsewhere.

The new Redemptor dread and Grav tank should put out enough firepower to lay low some guardsmen ;)

In fact I plan on kitting out the Redemptor as a dakka dread specifically to chew through hordes when I get my hands on one :D