Help a Brother with 8th Edition?

[Damo1701]

Due to weather, and other factors, the game has been pushed back to this evening. Hopefully...

 

I doubt I'll get much gaming against other people until the kids are much older, as the wife's work rota means she finishes too late to attempt a trip to GW. If I pass my Driving test in September, it may open up new options.

[Damo1701]

Ok, finally got the game I have been waiting for all week...

 

My List:

 

Captain
Storm Bolter/Power Fist

Lieutenant
Jump Pack/Twin Lightning Claws

2 Tactical Squads
Combi-Plasma/Plasma Gun

2 Tactical Squads
Meltagun/Lightning Claw

Scout Squad
Camo Cloaks/Sniper RIfles

Sternguard Squad
4 Combi-Flamer/Heavy Flamer

2 Assault Squad
Plasma Pistol/Lightning Claw

Devastator Squad
4 Lascannon

Relic Landraider Proteus
2 Twin Lascannon
Twin Heavy Bolter

Fire Raptor Gunship
2 Quad Heavy Bolter
2 Hellstrike Missile Launcher
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon

Total - Just shy of 2k points

 

This list had 4 Guard squads, 2 x 30 Conscripts, 2 Company Commanders, Pask, 2 Leman Russ Tank Commanders, Hellhound, 2 Commissars, 2 x 4 Bullgryns, 2 Valkyries.

 

Mission rolled was The Relic, and I deployed first.

 

1) Sternguard in the shadows

2) LR + 2 Plasma Tacticals beside firebase

3) Scouts top floor of ruin

4) Devastators 1st floor of ruin

5) 1 Melta Tactical in Shadows

6) Melta Tactical next to fire base, opposite LR.

7) Captain with FIre Base

8) Lieutenant with Fire Base

9) Assault Squad 1 next to LR.

10) Assault Squad 2 next to tacticals

11) Fire Raptor - poised out on my Right flank, ready to strafe the front of the guard force.

 

His deployment was pretty similar to mine, only he spread out over the entire 6' area.  His russes and Hellhound on my Right, facing my LR and FIre Raptor, conscripts blobbed in the middle, 2 Valkyries in the centre, right on the touch-line.  Commissars and Company Comanders hidden out of LOS, but in range of bubbles for all infantry.

 

He fails to seize initiative.

 

Tactical squad comes out of the shadows on the relic, and the Sternguard deploy on my Left flank, ready to roast an unsupported infantry squad.

 

My First Turn...

 

Fire Raptor burns 45" to sit right infront of his valkyries, to make it difficult for him to move them, the Shadows Tactical squad falls back with the relic, while the other tactical squad and assault squads move forward to support them.  The Landraider chugs forward 10" and positions itself rather nicely for a shot at an LR in the open.  Sternguard walk forwards from their positions, flamers at the ready.

 

Shooting...

 

Fire raptor, out of 32 shots, strikes down 16 conscripts on my left, and puts 3 damage on a Valkyrie with its missiles.  The Sternguard roast the infantry, about 5 more fall to speculative bolter fire, and the scouts sniper rifles.  The Land Raider damages the Leman Russ for a total of 5 damage, and the Lascannon Devastators, with the aid of a signum, Captain, and Lieutenant, do a total of 11 wounds to another valkyrie.

 

I didn't assault this turn, as my Sternguard were too effective.

 

His Turn 1...

 

Unmolested Conscripts advance for a total of 10" movement, the russes daisychain to get LoS to the FIre Raptor, the Hellhound moves forward to approach the Landraider, the molested conscripts move towards the sternguard with a company commander and commissar still in range for their effects, one Valkyrie hovers (the damaged one) and unloads its Bullgryns, the other unloads it's Bullgryns, flies around the FIre Raptor, and positions to threaten my screen around the relic.

 

Shooting...

 

Molested Conscripts - First Rank FIre, Second Rank FIre

Other Conscripts - Forwards for the Emperor

Tank Commanders - Reroll 1's.

 

32 RF conscripts lasguns remove 3 Sternguard, the others all missed due to being outside 12", a commissar removes another, leaving the heavy Flamer guy on his own.

The Russes do 13 wounds to the FIre Raptor...  13 freaking wounds in one turn...  Then he quit, because he didn't down it in the single go...

 

I guess there are plenty of balance issues still to be sorted with 8th edition.  This random number of shots to replace templates isn't overly working well, as weapons that only fire once are scoring multiple hits, with a multiplier for damage as well...  I mean, come on...  Pick one GW, either random number of hits, or random amount of damage.  Both is insane.  Add to that the conscripts being able to be affected by orders, and we get stupid situations where they can outshoot almost anything ese on the table.

 

All I heard during deployment and my first turn was how OP the Fire Raptor was, then, when he started packing up, complained about my Landraider being paired with the Fire Raptor...

 

Sure, they are both tough to take out (or not...) but, with what I am facing, the Regular SM codex leaves much to be desired, especially for the theme of my army.  Add to that he was moaning about my picking up a Sicarian Punisher and Vindicator Laser Destroyer, because he hates Forgeworld...  Well, I almost laughed in his face by that point, as without the FW stuff, I rarely survive turn 1 or 2.

 

He stormed off then, with a vague promise to return after the weekend.  Well, this is what 8th can do, at least here.

 

Am I expecting too much from an opponent?  Should FW units be limited more?

 

Personally, after looking at how things stood, he was in a much stronger position had he completed his turn.  He could have safely ignored the crippled Fire Raptor, concentrated on the Land Raider, and my force, balanced as it felt, would have crumbled.

[Claws and Effect]

FW units are fine. For what you pay for them, both in real money AND points, they SHOULD be powerful.

 

In your opponents whining about how overpowered the Fire Raptor is, did he ever acknowledge that it was nearly a quarter of your points on the table? 1 model almost a quarter of a 2,000 point list SHOULD be tough or it isn't worth it.

 

Sounds to me, my friend, like you need to find an opponent who is interested in having fun and won't get butthurt if he doesn't table you before turn 3.

 

I'd volunteer, but I'm unfortunately several thousand miles away.

[Damo1701]

Well... you know what?

 

I'll let him cool off, and write a list trying to feature all 3 of my Forgeworld units (I'll drop the Proteus for this), and we'll see what the what is.

 

The annoying thing, at least I've found, is the fact that I need Forgeworld units at all to stand past turn 1/2.

 

Is that just a penalty I must face for wanting the theme I have? Am I going to find that I can't play games over 1k points (My Primaris roster currently) because regular mar8nes just get chunked too fast?

 

I would live to expand my gaming experience, but, due to Childcare requirements, it's usually a better bet if I game at home.

 

What doesn't help, is that the majority of things I face through my mate are designed to total the power-gamers at the local GW.

 

Well, if any Frater ever end up in my neck of the world, but me up for a game.

[duz_]

No local gaming clubs or Facebook pages for you to find more casual gamers?

[Damo1701]

Unfortunately not.

 

I've tried that route too, which is where the gaming group I had a while ago came from, until people started sniping at each other.

[Colonel Bindoff]

Damo I've suffered similar circumstances in the past where I've been limited in opponent choice and had to suffer this sort of stroppy childish behaviour. Fortunately it didn't last forever but I remember how it really sucked all the joy out of playing.

Clubs I've played at often have one or two or these guys too, always laughing when they win, throwing the teddy out the peak when they start losing.

One option which has worked in the past is switching to narrative campaign style. Takes some work but you sell it by saying to Mr Guardsman "seeing as you're often beating me, can we maybe alternate games between competitive and a narrative campaign". Then try 'challenge' style games: last stand was one of my favourites, with defenders holed up with half the points value of attackers, and only objective being to try and have one model survive long enough to call in the fire support or something.

 

Just a thought, but with these sorts of regular opponents sometimes a bit of variation helps them realise that you can challenge yourself by taking less optimal lists and even have a bit of fun whilst you're at it?

[duz_]

There's a guy here was is similar too and often shows up to our regular friendly tournaments.

If he's winning he's happy, if he's losing he's throwing his models around.

I refuse to play him now even in events as that behaviour is unacceptable for grown adults.

[Jacques Corbin]

Honestly, for "people" like these, 40K is the only thing they have going for themselves in their life. Just pity them.

[Damo1701]

Well, firstly, I have new respect for the people who create the Battlescribe data files...  I've just figured out how to do it/edit existing ones.

 

I have been adding the Forgeworld models I have to the basic V26 Imperium: Space Marines data file this morning.  Trial and error has shown me that, while it's a long winded process, around 40-50% of the work has already been done.

 

I've been doing this because I find it easier to write tidy and legible army lists.  (I'll get to why this is on topic shortly.) 

 

Now, with easy to edit lists, while remaining tidy and neat, I have slotted my two new models (as well as a new unit) into a sparkly new army list, one that should be able to take on almost anything with a decent chance of doing serious damage.

 

Once I have finished polishing it, I'll post it up.  Some of it will require a proxy until I have finished building and painting what I need to run it correctly.  I'm liking the fact I have many options now, and sometimes, just switching things around for fun can have a better effect on an army than just trying to find the optimal builds, and running nothing but those.  (I've found that was extremely boring in the past.)

 

Now I have new units to use, and plans in place, I am feeling a little better about properly diving into 8th.

 

Once I pass my driving test, finding other places to play should be a little easier, as I can go out in the evening, to places that are open later.

 

Edit - Here is the list and tactics...

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [104 PL, 1987pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 88pts]: Power fist, Storm bolter

Chaplain [6 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 90pts]: 5x Camo cloak
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 179pts]
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 179pts]
. 7x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

+ Elites +

Imperial Space Marine [3 PL, 60pts]

Relic Sicarian Punisher Assault Tank [14 PL, 285pts]: Heavy bolter, Punisher Rotary Cannon, Two Lascannons

Vanguard Veteran Squad [15 PL, 290pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw

+ Fast Attack +

Bike Squad [9 PL, 176pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Twin boltgun
. 2x Space Marine Biker w/Bolt Pistol: 2x Twin boltgun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Twin boltgun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Twin boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Demios Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer [10 PL, 185pts]: Storm bolter

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 185pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

++ Total: [104 PL, 1987pts] ++

 

Deployment:

 

Striking from the shadows:  Vanguard Veterans, Chaplain, Imperial Space Marine, 1 Melta Tactical Squad.

 

Vindicator in cover with the Devastator Squad and Captain.

2 Plasma Tactical squads - covering the devastators on the flanks.  

Melta Tactical Squad - ready to provide close support against vehicles that get too close to the fire-base.

Sicarian and bikes out on one flank to roll up the weakest area, though I may have to take the fact my opponent will deploy to counter the sicarian fast.

Scouts infiltrating or finding a good sniping spot to careless enemy characters.

 

Any particular thought about this list? 

 

If I drop the tacticals to 5-man again, and cut the scouts, I could be "THAT GUY" and squeeze the fire raptor in as well...  But, that's just mean.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Damo1701

[Lemondish]

Honestly, for "people" like these, 40K is the only thing they have going for themselves in their life. Just pity them.

 

This is kind of a negative, almost condescending way to put it, but you're right. We don't know what struggles or troubles others are going through at any time, so forgive them. 

 

Back on topic - make a separate list in Battlescribe for the Fire Raptor just in case being mean isn't a factor ;)

[Claws and Effect]

Looks solid Damo.

 

I'd consider doing an alternate list including Shrike as well, but it looks pretty good.

 

Also consider combat squadding the Vanguard on occasion.

[Damo1701]

I've thought about Shrike, but, he would be wasted just being with the fire base. Though, he does have the movement to ping to tacticals who need to overcharge.

 

I did think about combat squads, but, the 10-man squad gives some protection from overwatch, as well as units retreating and being able to fire.

[Lemondish]

I've thought about Shrike, but, he would be wasted just being with the fire base. Though, he does have the movement to ping to tacticals who need to overcharge.

 

I did think about combat squads, but, the 10-man squad gives some protection from overwatch, as well as units retreating and being able to fire.

 

Bring in Lias to stay with your firebase, even if you don't make use of his Ambush ability, that Malice bolter is pretty painful and he's deep in there. 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I like your load-out choices on many of your units. You keep everything uniform, you have redundancy, and you have made efficient choices. If I was going to provide feedback, it would be:

 

- 30 Tactical Marines with no means to transport them doesn't sit well with me. I like the loadouts and intent, however with the game plan to only SFTS one of the 5-man melta units, the other 25 guys are basically resigned to walking. I would attempt to correct this one of two ways:

 

1) Accept that you don't want to run transports (Pods, Rhinos, Stormraven, etc), and want to keep the theme of being on foot. If that was the case, I would take the 30 tactical marines, and convert them into 2 min-sized squads to meet your troop requirement (with maybe a single heavy or special weapon, and naked sergeant), for simply sitting on objectives. Thematically I would also consider swapping these 2 troops choices to more Sniper Scouts as well. With the points not spent, I would pick up a second devastator squad to put those Plasma Cannons into, and consider bulking out both units a little more to give you ablative wounds. Something like:

 

8 x Devastator Squad (4x Bolter, 4x Plasma Cannon)

8 x Devastator Squad (4x Bolter, 4x Lascannon)

 

If the units are going to be sitting backfield/camping, its best to establish a stronger firebase and park a Captain (or Shrike) with them to throw out more firepower.

 

2) Consider switching it up and going the transport route, and that opens up a wide range of options (and also changes the thematic appeal of your army, I understand this isn't for everyone). Options (and what they would look like) if you went the transport route:

 

A) Cheap and Effective: Rhinos. 3 Rhinos puts this whole contingent sheathed in ceramite. You can stack the 2 5-man units in one rhino. To make points available to do this you would have to make room elsewhere though (or by cutting down the troops slots which in turn means less transports necessary. You can also go razorback spam here as well.

 

B) Drop pods: Your weapon setups lend themselves to drop pods as well, the melta units especially.

 

3) Stormraven: My personal choice that I feel is one of the strongest in this edition. Trim down to a couple 5-man units with special weapons, and put two of them in a stormraven with 1-2 characters (Imperial Space marine, etc). This will reduce your drops, get you closer to first turn, give you tons of mobility, and the option to drop ObSec tacticals around the board.

[Damo1701]

Lemondish - I don't run Raptors, otherwise Lias would be in my list.

 

Itvyper - some great suggestions there, thanks. The main reason for having what I've chosen is, since I started my Raven Guard, I've run 5-man squads. In 7th, they performed great, were generally survivable, and managed to do their jobs.

 

In 8th, they suffer from being wipes out by (former) template weapons, and the last guy dying to Battleshock...

 

As I face many hellhounds, I figured having a "reserve" meltagun might come in handy in case they get too close.

 

I've tried using transports and fewer troops/more scouts, but been pulled off the table very fast, so, I've changed to what we have here... for now.

 

I do love using Stormravens, and after seeing how this list performs, might put one back in.

 

I'm glad I have enough models either able to be used, or, in the process of being built/painted, that I can make almost any reasonable list, while maintaining the time-period aspect.

 

Rhinos/drop pods... these units are currently too hard to get my mind around them being worth their overinflated points cost. Though, without turrets, the Razorbacks can be rhinos... I just don't see the value.

 

Granted, for turn 1 I'll have 2 CP for the battle, having spent 4 during deployment, but, I need to try and remember to use them anyway...

[Claws and Effect]

Camping Shrike in the backfield to be an aurabot is a waste.

 

He SHOULD be used to eliminate overwatch for your Vanguard. 35 attacks that all reroll to hit AND to wound (assuming lightning claws still do that). That should pretty much wipe out any infantry unit you send them against.

 

Shrike isn't a big game hunter, his stats don't lend him to it. 15 potential damage is nice, but his strength is too low to reliably hurt high toughness. But he's a blender against most infantry.

 

That's how I'd use him. Try to screen him from enemy fire until the charge and send him in first with the warlord trait.

[duz_]

Shrikes claws give shred, but not the +1 A 

[Claws and Effect]

Shrikes claws give shred, but not the +1 A

 

I thought he had 5 attacks already?

 

10 twin claws Vanguard should put out 30, plus Shrike's 5.

[seriade]

What are peoples thoughts on normal dreds with las/ml(145 pts) to supplement or replace devastators or should they be more for vehicle replacements?

[autek mor]

you would get more firepower out of the forgeworld mortis dreads. they can have upto three big guns unless that has been changed since.

[Race Bannon]

In my mind, Dreads are a supplement, not a replacement.

[Damo1701]

Well... taking stick of my Forge World units has given me a real eye-open...

 

1 Fire Raptor. 1 Land Raider Proteus. 1 Relic Contemptor with dual Kheres assault cannons. 1 Sicarian Punisher. 1 Vindicator Laser Destroyer. 10 Dark Furies/Vanguard veterans. Plus, weapon options like combi-weapons, lascannons, and Plasma Cannons.

 

Painting the Sicarian and Vindicator, need to paint the Contemptor, need to finish building the dark furies and the guys to wield the heavy weapons.

 

So, I think that my Raven Guard should be pretty good to go for now, when I factor in everything else I have available. Increasing the points levels to play at increases my chances of finding disgusting combinations, but also means I'll face worse combinations.

 

I do think I might be finding a sweet spot now, especially ones that are in keeping with my army theme.

 

Though, I must say, I might sell a kidney one day, because the Stormbird model is beautiful... and would round things out nicely to provide a centrepiece unit.

 

Future thoughts about bulking out the raven guard are:

 

Get all squads to 10-strong.

Demios predator squadron (normal 40k rules)

Relic Data-Link telemetry unit... yup, 2 whirlwind Scorpios and a javelin speeder...

Fellblade.

 

Been toying with the idea of a stormhawk or two, but, then there is the xiphon pattern interceptor...

 

I do currently think the FW units are providing a decent value for money when their rules are taken into account.

 

Once the two vehicles are painted, I'll try and get a game in, may have to proxy a little for the infantry, but, nothing too bad.

[Lemondish]

Sorry if it was mentioned, but are you using those dark furies as vanguard vets? Any chance you can share what options come in the kits?

[Damo1701]

Yeah, I'm using them as Vanguard vets.

 

You get enough claws and heads in the packet to make a 10-man squad from 2 lots, without having 2 sergeant models/pairs of claws.

 

There is even a head with a moulded stripe for combat squad leader/lieutenant, plus a bare head. There is also a pair of Melta Bombs as well, if you like adding them.