Daemon Engines fluff

[Berzerker88]

Well, do we have any source material describing how these things work on the battlefield? Like how are they transported into a battlefield? How are they controlled once there?

 

Say you want to send a pack of Maulerfiends into a bunker complex. How do you deploy them in range, and how do you 'order' the things to attack the bunkers instead of just kiling you for having it imprisoned in the first place?

[Dinobot]

the demonic artillery used by the Iron Warriors in Storm of Iron is deployed enchained and will go rampage on both friend and foe alike when broken free. Same goes for the Wirewolfs brought to Gereon by the Bloodpact. In contrast to that, the Bloodpact also used possessed stalker tanks, that seemed to operate mostly on their own, having the intelligence of a smart predatory beast.

 

I remember also some fluff in the Traitor-Legions-Rulebook on the Demonengine-formations, that hint at how the relationship between Warpsmiths and their contraptions work.

Guessing blindly i'd say Warpsmiths, Sorcerers or Heretek can command demon engines with transmitting scrapcode, which is a semicarcane programming language created yb chaos itself.

[Sandlemad]

IA13 had some details on this. Some of the larger or more obviously daemonic daemon engines - Blight Drones, Soul Grinders, Great Brass Scorpions, Lords of Skulls - are summoned to the battlefield in the same manner as 'organic' daemons. More 'normal' daemon engines - defilers, mauler/forgefiends, possessed astartes tanks - are brought to the battlefield in chains or locked in dropships. Can't recall the details of how they're controlled but it might be worth looking for a copy.

[Commissar K.]

Since they all bear marks or can have them now I think their command is much the same as regular Daemons from that patron. So unless they are not in combat I think they will act on their own devices as much as their god commands it from that as a chaos gods commands it from the mortals. If the lore on the Helforged Daemons will remain is something Im looking forward to, as in previous editions the reason why some wouldn't or couldn't bear a mark was because they gathered souls for a whole other alliance. To which commanding one becomes a more confilcted option as having one that follows the same god as the mortal or Daemon in question.

Transports in general for own lore purposes would indeed be to chain one up and have it within the transports of the Chaos Space Marines themselves. While I think you could get away from a narrative perspective for summonning them I think for own lore it's easier to pretty much treat them the same as Helbrutes but larger (in the case of Defilers). Forgefiends and Maulderfiends being chained and locked up like beasts is kind of logical. 

When we would go back to how Angron was transported just after his ascension they also just basically put him where the Vechicles used to be ;). Semi locked up and ideally not approached unless required.

In general I believe that Daemons and thus also Daemonic Engines understand or see the blessings a chaos god has bestowed upon them and in general I also dont think that lesser Daemons and Daemonic Engines are in it to break the chain of command. Instead they follow when an appropriate leader presents itself. However there is also some real 1d4chan, for the lulz, Khornate Champion riding Defiler lore... So in the end you can make it as crazy as you want to. 

[Plaguecaster]

Berserkers riding Defilers was one of the most awesome parts of apocalypse Commisar K it made sense fluff wise and was a cool way of turning Defilers into transports for your berserkers though with be greater risk :D shame they didn't keep it

 

The fluff for the bloat drones have them hating the warpsmiths who bound them in their metal prisons seeking their creator's destruction taking their vengeance out on any poor soul the encounter once released for battle

[Terkael]

In the Word Bearers series they use runed chains to drag the engines to the battle line and basically make sure they are facing the enemy before they let them loose. Getting them back in chains is the hard part.

[Berzerker88]

I don't think the 'chaining' explanation makes much tactical sense. I mean think about it, if they're really that prone to attacking their masters, wouldn't it make more sense for them to immediately do so when they are released, since their masters will always be closer than the enemy?

 

Then there is Defiler fluff saying Abbadon had them built to replace the Chaos Dreadnought because the latter was too uncontrollable. I think the Warpsmiths/Sorcerers controlling them remotely is more logical. In what kind of vehicle would you even move those things around? :P

 

That's just my opinion though :D

[Cryptix]

If you own Black Crusade there's rules and fluff on daemon engines and their creation in the Tone of Blood IIRC.

[Berzerker88]

If you own Black Crusade there's rules and fluff on daemon engines and their creation in the Tone of Blood IIRC.

Nope, I read the entire book and there's no such thing.

[Cryptix]

Its in one of those tomes. Maybe it was Tzeentch, I'll check my books.

EDIT: Found it, Tome of Decay, page 49

[Berzerker88]

Its in one of those tomes. Maybe it was Tzeentch, I'll check my books.

EDIT: Found it, Tome of Decay, page 49

Found it, thanks!

[Kol Saresk]

I don't think the 'chaining' explanation makes much tactical sense. I mean think about it, if they're really that prone to attacking their masters, wouldn't it make more sense for them to immediately do so when they are released, since their masters will always be closer than the enemy?

 

Then there is Defiler fluff saying Abbadon had them built to replace the Chaos Dreadnought because the latter was too uncontrollable. I think the Warpsmiths/Sorcerers controlling them remotely is more logical. In what kind of vehicle would you even move those things around? :P

 

That's just my opinion though :D

Well, the way I've always interpreted the background is that the physical construct of the engine is supposed to function like a magic circle. As a result, the summong sorcer(s) and/or warpsmith(s) can just focus on the "circle" and prevent the daemon from attacking them directly. The chains are for the rest of the army.

 

In most instances where daemon engines are used, there aren't exactly many other people around them.

 

So the background actually shares your concern and operates on the assumption that except for special instances(like the daemon artillery in Storm of Iron which is always chained down), daemon engines are only deployed alongside the "lucky" conscripts who get to take them out to the battlefield.

 

Since these are daemons however, I also imagine that an ambitious warlord can always strike a deal to keep summoning the daemon to material realm as long as it only promises to kill the warband's enemies, and the occasional careless idiot.

[Berzerker88]

 

I don't think the 'chaining' explanation makes much tactical sense. I mean think about it, if they're really that prone to attacking their masters, wouldn't it make more sense for them to immediately do so when they are released, since their masters will always be closer than the enemy?

Then there is Defiler fluff saying Abbadon had them built to replace the Chaos Dreadnought because the latter was too uncontrollable. I think the Warpsmiths/Sorcerers controlling them remotely is more logical. In what kind of vehicle would you even move those things around? :P

That's just my opinion though :D

Well, the way I've always interpreted the background is that the physical construct of the engine is supposed to function like a magic circle. As a result, the summong sorcer(s) and/or warpsmith(s) can just focus on the "circle" and prevent the daemon from attacking them directly. The chains are for the rest of the army.

In most instances where daemon engines are used, there aren't exactly many other people around them.

So the background actually shares your concern and operates on the assumption that except for special instances(like the daemon artillery in Storm of Iron which is always chained down), daemon engines are only deployed alongside the "lucky" conscripts who get to take them out to the battlefield.

Since these are daemons however, I also imagine that an ambitious warlord can always strike a deal to keep summoning the daemon to material realm as long as it only promises to kill the warband's enemies, and the occasional careless idiot.

What exactly do you mean by 'magic circle'?

 

Also, if you can only use a Daemon Engine by dragging it on massive chains (presumably using even larger vehicles to move them around) to a nearly isolated spot on the battlefield, possibly braving enemy fire in the process, just for it destroy said vehicles and crew the moment they are released and THEN, MAYBE attack the enemy (instead of the very reasonable chance of it ignoring them anyway and seeking your forces out in revenge for it's imprisonment)...

 

Then they don't seem practical or even useful in any non-despetate situation. It's downright stupid that Failbaddon would seek to replace the 'crazy and unreliable' Chaos Dreadnought with the even more crazy and unreliable Defiler that also HATES YOU for imprisoning it in the first place.

 

It's a textbook example of grimderp. What was GW thinking?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Something I think is falling through the cracks here is that daemon engines are daemons permanently bound to the war machines.  Rather than summon a Bloodletter in its proto-flesh form -- where it cannot maintain the power to remain corporeal for very long in most circumstances -- the daemons are summoned into the structure of the vehicle in question and, using sorcerous runes and other such mystical hokum, they are quite literally caged within the physical structure of the machine.  The difference between a daemon engine and a daemonically possessed vehicle is that a possessed vehicle doesn't appear to have full control over the vehicle (since possessed tanks still have crew), whereas daemon engines are basically stable physical bodies for daemon to inhabit that don't fall apart due to the ephemeral nature of daemons when in realspace.

 

Daemon engines, therefore, are not summoned; as physical entities, they must be physically transported to a battlefield like any other weapon.  Since they are bound daemons, sorcerers and warpsmiths with the appropriate lore can indeed command them with the proper words and rites (seriously, look at Eisenhorn; he commanded Cherubael fairly easily).  The more feral or strong-willed the daemon, the more physical requirements may be necessary as in the example of the possessed artillery in Storm of Iron as previously discussed.

 

In terms of transport, speaking strictly of Defilers and Maulerfiends and Forgefiends (hereafter referred to simply as Fiends), you would need transport aicraft large enough to fit them.  Thunderhawks may be able to squeeze a Fiend into their hold, but I'd think that either custom-made landers or else relic Stormbirds would be required to move them.  They're all too big for drop pods after all, and their irregular shapes make Thunderhawk Transporters a poor choice.

[Azekai]

 

 

Daemon engines, therefore, are not summoned; as physical entities, they must be physically transported to a battlefield like any other weapon. 

This is just not true. There are daemon engines that can be summoned. The soul grinder just appears out of the warp, as did the old (giant) blight drone. Others seem to be transported physically, like the new (foetid) blight drone.

 

Some daemon engines are created intentionally by the Dark Mechanicus on blasted Forgeworlds. The fluff for the decimator hints that there is a specific group of vile tech adepts responsible for creating and selling them. It isn't just warpsmiths who produce these things. On the other hand, the defiler is noted as being a joint project between the Dark Mechanicus and heretic astartes sorcerers.

 

In the older soul grinder fluff there is a giant forge in the warp spewing out terrible hybrids of machine and daemon. 

 

I think something people are missing here is that the daemons used within these machines are bound. Typically, binding daemons involves placing limitations on them... some of those limitations could easily be 'do not kill people your master doesn't want you to kill,' or 'don't kill me, you murderous heap of slag.' The foetid blight drones are specifically noted as being unable to kill the ones who created them, so they have to sate their murderous fury on the enemies of whichever chaos lord they serve. Defilers also need to be sorcerously pacified before they can be useful. I don't know why people are just assuming they are crazy, crazy, crazy all the time.

 

Of course, nothing is perfect. Sometimes the Chaos Space Marines' bindings fail or are overcome (which is why things like the hellforged predator go crazy and start eating people when their hulls are compromised).

[Azekai]

Also, just saw this:

 

The difference between a daemon engine and a daemonically possessed vehicle is that a possessed vehicle doesn't appear to have full control over the vehicle (since possessed tanks still have crew),

Possessed tanks generally do not have crew, as a rule (the lines may blur, such as with Chaos Titans. The line between machine, daemon and crew gets pretty fuzzy). The old entry for Demonic Possession states that the crew is replaced by a daemon. That is why the possessed warmachine can't be shaken, and the BS is comparably poor. Daemons don't care if their temporary metal shell is getting torn apart, and they are not as well-trained as Chaos Space Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Berzerker88: the magic circle construct is very common in any genre, fictional and nonfictional, that concerns magic. It's in Supernatural, Teen Wolf, several anime, pretty much everything that has magic.

 

Pretty much any passage in any genre that describes wards, patterns on the inside of rooms that are made up of runes and geometric shapes, or even armors and weapons covered in magic runes.

 

Heck, Mortarion made one in the short story Daemonology.

 

The purpose of magic circles is to channel and focus magic towards specific purposes.

 

And usually when it comes to summoning, they're used to both summon and trap entities until either the circle is broken or the entity is dismissed.

 

A common flaw of the magic circle is if the summoner doesn't pay attention or there is the smallest scratch in whatever shapes and runes make up the circle, the entity can escape and attack their summoner.

 

So, in the case of the daemon engine, the magic circle construct would be the physical construct the daemon is summoned into. Which means that as long the summoner focuses on the engine, ot has to obey their will.

 

I mean, honestly, it seems like you're not too familiar with settings that involve magic. I'd suggest reading or watching up on a few as they'd be a great help in understanding things. While 40K is a rather simplistic setting, like any setting, it builds on concepts that already exist and are common throughout other genres.

 

The Dresden Files is a good book series on learning about how magic works.

 

I mean, honestly it seems like you're just griping about something for the sole purpose of griping. You seem perfectly okay with daemon weapons trying to kill their owners and they're just weapons in that state.

[Xin Ceithan]

That is why basically any setting involving magic suggest it should be done by professionals ;)

 

Using warostuff and magic is potentialy as dangerous to the user as the intendend target.

I think in the Gaunt series, they even transported what would nowadays be called a hellbrute outside the ship in a forcefield, rather than risk it getting loose.

 

The main difference between possesing and binding is most often thought in the amount of control over the thing you are calling.

Think of possesed more as unguided rockets (more bang, less precise) to bound guided missiles (guidance system takes up more space).

You still would not want either one Too close, especially when it goes for the target.

 

And when it comes to summoning something from outside your Reality, esoecially when it is hungry and prone to mood swings, you'd think more people would come back to Rule Number One.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

 

Daemon engines, therefore, are not summoned; as physical entities, they must be physically transported to a battlefield like any other weapon. 

This is just not true. There are daemon engines that can be summoned. The soul grinder just appears out of the warp, as did the old (giant) blight drone. Others seem to be transported physically, like the new (foetid) blight drone.

 

 

 

There is a difference between the daemon engines of the Chaos Space Marines and those of the Chaos Daemons faction.  The reason the latter can be summoned, like the Soul Grinder, is because the daemons are willing participants and the engines are built by daemons.  The Forge of Souls fluff is explicit that daemons work the Forge, not Dark Mechanicum or warpsmiths.  The daemons bound to Defilers and Fiends, on the other hand, are trapped and bound against their will by human warp-craft while the machinery they are bound to if forged by human(ish) hands.  So it's not so much that I'm wrong about the needs of transport as I wasn't clear that I was speaking only about those engines that are part of the Traitor Legion armories.

 

 

Also, just saw this:

 

The difference between a daemon engine and a daemonically possessed vehicle is that a possessed vehicle doesn't appear to have full control over the vehicle (since possessed tanks still have crew),

Possessed tanks generally do not have crew, as a rule (the lines may blur, such as with Chaos Titans. The line between machine, daemon and crew gets pretty fuzzy). The old entry for Demonic Possession states that the crew is replaced by a daemon. That is why the possessed warmachine can't be shaken, and the BS is comparably poor. Daemons don't care if their temporary metal shell is getting torn apart, and they are not as well-trained as Chaos Space Marines.

 

You are correct, here, though.  I confused the old daemonic possession and the old parasitic possession, because one allowed you to still mount troops in a possessed transport while the other didn't, as it required all hatches to be sealed to keep the daemon physically contained.

[Azekai]

 

There is a difference between the daemon engines of the Chaos Space Marines and those of the Chaos Daemons faction.  The reason the latter can be summoned, like the Soul Grinder, is because the daemons are willing participants and the engines are built by daemons.  The Forge of Souls fluff is explicit that daemons work the Forge, not Dark Mechanicum or warpsmiths.  The daemons bound to Defilers and Fiends, on the other hand, are trapped and bound against their will by human warp-craft while the machinery they are bound to if forged by human(ish) hands.  So it's not so much that I'm wrong about the needs of transport as I wasn't clear that I was speaking only about those engines that are part of the Traitor Legion armories.

 

This is true. Some other folks were painting with pretty broad brushes and I wanted to make it clear that 'daemon engines' is a very diverse group of warmachines. The genesis is different, but all are constructs infused with beings of the warp. Some are more wild than others, and the ratio of 'machine to daemon' can be radically different.

 

As a tangent, the Faustian bargains made by the daemons with the Forge of Souls are similar thematically to binding rituals, in that the Forge places strictures on the daemons (although they seem less restrictive than the magical authority of the warpsmiths). 

 

The distinction between true 'possession' and daemonic parasitism is a good one too. I suppose one represents full control by the daemon and the other is... something else...? Regrowing armor and weaponry seems pretty weird, but such is the nature of Chaos.

[Berzerker88]

Thing with the 'unwilling' Daemon Engines is that there is no fluff explanation as to why they don't immediately seek out and attack their current master the moment they are unchained/wards are lifted. If I am a daemon wanted to ensure my release AND take revenge of the foolish mortals who tought they could order me around, I'm pretty sure the best course of action would be to seek them out and start slaughtering them. And nowhere in the fluff it is said how this obvious flaw is circunvented for Defilers, Fiends, etc. You can speculate all you want about your 'magic circles' but unless you have fluff to back it up, it's just your own headcanon.

 

Willing daemon engines are another thing entirely. Brass Scorpions and Soul Grinders are summoned directly into the battlefield.

[Azekai]

Thing with the 'unwilling' Daemon Engines is that there is no fluff explanation as to why they don't immediately seek out and attack their current master the moment they are unchained/wards are lifted. If I am a daemon wanted to ensure my release AND take revenge of the foolish mortals who tought they could order me around, I'm pretty sure the best course of action would be to seek them out and start slaughtering them. And nowhere in the fluff it is said how this obvious flaw is circunvented for Defilers, Fiends, etc. You can speculate all you want about your 'magic circles' but unless you have fluff to back it up, it's just your own headcanon.

 

First off, I can't find any fluff about defilers going crazy and killing their own, at least in my old dex or other Eye of Terror era fluff. You just assume they have both the ability and desire to kill their chaos buddies but I can't really find a source for either. There is a line about how upon the Defiler's initial creation, the raging daemons are mollified by sorcerers... but it seems like after that point they are controllable.

 

Second, as I said, blight drone fluff indicates they can't just kill whoever they want. They are bound to the will of either the one who made them or the chaos lord they are beholden to. Fiends seem to follow a similar rite of creation, so if warpsmiths have been shown to be able to bind and control blight drones and defilers, presumably similar (if not identical) methods are employed on them as well.

 

Kol mentioned specifics of a binding ritual and he cited sources, including Mortarion's ritual, but there are others. Eisenhorn hangs out with a daemonhost, Cherubael, and similar 'magic' is employed there to keep the daemon bound inside flesh rather than metal or a circle of salt.

 

It seems like a very shallow read of the situation to say 'wow daemon engines are dumb, since daemons are uncontrollable psychos they would just kill their own dudes!' Yes, that would be dumb... but that isn't how it is, so it isn't dumb. 

 

 

[Xin Ceithan]

This is the quickest fluff thing I can quote. It's from FFG Black Crusade, the "official" 40k RPG among the rituals section regarding summoning chaos daemons:

 

"THE DAEMONIC MASTERY TEST

Commanding a daemon is no minor thing, as even the least of entities that may answer a sorcerer’s call are malign creatures of rage and hate that would sooner rend a mortal apart for sport than serve one. In order to control a summoned daemon, a battle of wills is fought psychically between the summoner and the daemon, represented by an Opposed Willpower Test taking a Full Action to perform. If the summoner is a psyker, he may add a +5 bonus to his test for every point of Psy Rating he has. This test is further modified by the criteria listed on Table 6–7: Summoning Ritual Modifiers, by Daemonic Presence, and by any other pertinent factors.

If the summoner wins the contest, he may command the daemon to do his bidding, and it will follow his spoken and telepathic instructions clearly and accurately. If the summoner fails the Test, then the daemon is free to do as it wishes, and will usually start by seeking to take out its rage upon the summoner"

 

Black Crusade, Page 230

 

There is a longer fluff / rules section in the Game's Nurgle companion which covers the creation of Daemon Engines (which the PDF won't let me copy- it's in "Time of Corruption ", Pages 49ff). Aside from making the creation of a suitable hull something that would an MMORPG questline or the first book in a triology, it refers to the act of summoning and binding a daemon to said shell using the core rule fluff which ends with the quoted paragraph above.

 

Basically, you do it see the unsuccessful bindings on the table top - they already went berserk before the set up. There are no rules Imperial tanks might blow up due to accidents while loading up ammo or having the engine break down in game, either. Yet these things happen and much more common than playing with Warp stuff. Would not that be that much fun to play in quick match, so ruleswise we simply assume the models we brought and bought act like they should for simplicity's sake. Unless you play Skaven.

[Berzerker88]

 

Thing with the 'unwilling' Daemon Engines is that there is no fluff explanation as to why they don't immediately seek out and attack their current master the moment they are unchained/wards are lifted. If I am a daemon wanted to ensure my release AND take revenge of the foolish mortals who tought they could order me around, I'm pretty sure the best course of action would be to seek them out and start slaughtering them. And nowhere in the fluff it is said how this obvious flaw is circunvented for Defilers, Fiends, etc. You can speculate all you want about your 'magic circles' but unless you have fluff to back it up, it's just your own headcanon.

 

First off, I can't find any fluff about defilers going crazy and killing their own, at least in my old dex or other Eye of Terror era fluff. You just assume they have both the ability and desire to kill their chaos buddies but I can't really find a source for either. There is a line about how upon the Defiler's initial creation, the raging daemons are mollified by sorcerers... but it seems like after that point they are controllable.

Second, as I said, blight drone fluff indicates they can't just kill whoever they want. They are bound to the will of either the one who made them or the chaos lord they are beholden to. Fiends seem to follow a similar rite of creation, so if warpsmiths have been shown to be able to bind and control blight drones and defilers, presumably similar (if not identical) methods are employed on them as well.

Kol mentioned specifics of a binding ritual and he cited sources, including Mortarion's ritual, but there are others. Eisenhorn hangs out with a daemonhost, Cherubael, and similar 'magic' is employed there to keep the daemon bound inside flesh rather than metal or a circle of salt.

It seems like a very shallow read of the situation to say 'wow daemon engines are dumb, since daemons are uncontrollable psychos they would just kill their own dudes!' Yes, that would be dumb... but that isn't how it is, so it isn't dumb.

1) Except Defiler fluff specifically mentions they don't care about who they are killing.

 

2) The question isn't how the Daemons are kept from bursting out of their engines, but how they are kept from attacking their handlers and masters in the first place.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

1) Except Defiler fluff specifically mentions they don't care about who they are killing.

 

2) The question isn't how the Daemons are kept from bursting out of their engines, but how they are kept from attacking their handlers and masters in the first place.

 

 

The Defiler's don't care, but their handlers do.  Apparently you missed my point about how the daemons are bound to the war machines in the first place, because part of binding a daemon is that you can then control it.  As has been mentioned multiple times now, consider in the fluff the daemonhost Cherubael from the Eisenhorn trilogy.  A daemon, physically bound within a human body, that takes commands from a human because of the nature of the binding.  When a daemon is bound in a Defiler, part and parcel of the binding process is going to be a list of standing commands that prevents the Defiler from turning on its masters.  Another is going to be that the Defiler must obey the orders of its masters.  Without those precautions, the Defiler is never going to be put on the field of battle (ie, our tabletops) because it's going to activate your Point #1 and kill the pretentious fleshbags that forced it into the machine in the first place.  That conflict is going to led to either the Defiler being destroyed or it destroys all of said fleshbags and wanders off on its own in search of something else to kill.  Only successfully bound and commanded Defilers will actually be deployed as part of a warband.