Daemon Engines fluff

[bluntblade]

As the Ahriman series shows, the KSons can resort to physical restraints(Ahriman kept a Daemonhost chained up throughout the first book), but they also have more esoteric ways of keeping the daemons restrained.

That said, the primary reason the daemons in Storm of Iron were able to go insane was because bombs were being strapped to them, blowing up the actual engines, and the daemons were just wreaking havoc in the Iron Warriors' trenches as they were going back to the warp.

@MoGuy: Don't forget thag when that Daemon Titan caught sight of Ctesias, the summoner who trapped the daemon in the Titan, it did its best to murder him, not caring who got caught in the way.

They use daemon engines in the form of cannons on Fenris, if I recall correctly.

[Kol Saresk]

Ooh! Here's another one from a different short story in the same anthology where Ctesias tortures a daemonhost that he himself created. Much more different than a daemon existing in its pure warpform like the last example, no?

 

The creature tried to raise its head from the altar. Silver chains clinked as it moved, and symbols on the altar glowed brighter. White candles burned with a steady green light at the edge of my sight, but they did nothing to banish the darkness of the chamber. The only true illumination was the cold glow of my staff, and the glow coming from within the chained creature.

 

I say creature, because that was what it was. The spite of the daemon had swallowed the flesh of the human that I had given it as a host. Its limbs had grown and bent with new joints. Black quills had sprouted from its back and shoulders, and the face was an explosion of fangs and red, lidless eyes. The skin stretched over its bones was transparent and the colour of amber. Within its body, organs floated like jellyfish and blood vessels were threads of red light. The man I had taken from the Sycorax’s machine decks remained only as a twitching pulse of soul light, shrinking as the imprisoned daemon ate it.

 

The creature strained against the chains for a second, and then flopped back onto the altar. It hissed at me, its face pulsing.

 

I sighed. It was the fourth daemon I had bound and put to the question, and so far each of them had proved as unhelpful as the last. It was not the most powerful daemon I could summon, but it was cunning and knowing. I had more, thousands more, all bound by their true names that I broke into fragments and kept in my memory. The shards of those names scratched at the edge of my thoughts, like insects in boxes. They wanted me to let them out.

 

If things did not start going better, some of them might get their wish, I thought. How many more times would I have to go through this tedious cycle before Ahriman at last accepted that there was no way of finding what he sought.

 

Knowing him, I was not sure that we would ever reach that point. I was more likely to run out of human hosts, daemons to questions and patience long before he would admit defeat. He had given this task to me and to me alone. While he sat in his tower and cast his mind into the realm of dreams, I had to find a way to do the impossible. I had to find a way out of the Eye of Terror.

 

‘Give it to me,’ I said, and the moisture of my breath fell as a frost through the psychically charged air. ‘Give it to me and I will release you, and burn the memory of your true name from my mind.’

 

The creature hissed, and strained against the chains again.

 

‘Very well,’ I said, and closed my eyes for a few seconds. I was really very tired.

 

I moved away from the altar to where the shadows hid iron shelves worked into the chamber’s walls. My hand found the stone jar I was looking for, and my fingers tingled as I picked it up. My mind formed a series of words, and the pictograms on the jar’s surface lit with a molten glow. I let go of my staff and it began to rotate in place beside me. The jar’s lid came free in my hand. The smell of grave rot filled the air. I walked towards the creature on the altar. It had shrunk. The iron quills bristled from its flesh. Every one of its eyes fixed on the jar in my hand.

 

Daemons do not feel fear. They do not feel anything that we might consider emotion. They are emotion. A daemon is hate, desire and rage all congealed into things that want nothing more than to burn the mortal world that created them. They don’t fear any more than a fish drowns. But rules and rivalries run through every mote of their existence, unbreakable and undeniable. And because of that nature there are things that even they cannot bear. There are things which, if they were mortal, we would say terrify them. I could banish the daemon. I could bind it for aeons, but both those were not threat enough. So instead I was going to give this daemon to another of its kind. I was going to let its essence be consumed by its antithesis. I was going to feed it to a daemon of decay.

 

'I know my feelings on this are both irrelevant and incomprehensible to you, but I would really rather not do this.’

 

I stepped up to the altar and looked down at the creature. It was very still. For a second it almost seemed like a living thing.

 

'I do not say that from pity. Just in case that was a point of confusion. It is more that while this will be as bad as such things can be for your kind, it will cost me as much to replace the resources that I am expending on this question.’ I reached into the jar. The thing which emerged between my fingers looked like a scorpion made of polished bone and dried sinew. Its legs shifted with a dull creak as it clung to my hand. ‘But needs must.'

 

The creature of the altar exploded upwards, screeching, limbs writhing, skin stretching. The chains snapped tight, and sigils flared on the altar. I muttered a word and dropped the thing of bone from my fingers. It grew as it fell, bone legs snapping out, sacks of yellow venoms swelling across its back. It landed on the creature. Scraps of flesh and skin sprayed up as it scrabbled into the creature’s torso. Oily black smoke poured into the air with overlapping cries of birds. The creature was juddering, its flesh crawling with blisters, its veins clotting to black rot.

 

“Give it to me,’ I spat. The creature on the altar was shaking from side to side so fast that it was a chained blur. The click of bones and the hiss of venom beat in my ears as the scorpion dug deeper into the red meat. ‘Give me the way to find Antilline Abyss.’

 

‘Gates… of… Ruin…’ The words rose from the creature. I raised my hand over it and spoke a silent word. The thing of bone and decay went still inside the creature’s mangled torso.

 

‘The Gates of Ruin?’ I repeated softly.

 

‘All those who tread the path you seek only reach it through the Gates of Ruin.'

 

Excerpt From: French, John. “Ahriman: Exodus.” iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

So, I'll continue to get spurces. But going back to the first posters whom you rudely rebuked for trying to answer your question, "It's magic."

 

They use the same magics they use to create the daemons to continue binding them into obedience.

 

The reasons many daemon engines are chained while in transit, is because the sorcerers, warpsmiths, and heretek priests would drop dead from the exhaustion of forcing a daemon against its will all the time.

 

Also, there is no such thing as a "willingly summoned daemon." All daemons are summoned against their will. Especially those like the Ragged Knight which are then trapped in a piece of vellum. Which is a lot worse than a mechanical construct.

 

Deals can be struck with daemons after they are summoned in which the warlord or summoner will barter whatever the daemon might be interested in for its obedience. But those have to happen after the summoning.

 

Oh, and one more thing to keep in mind. The next time you come onto these forums and you ask a question, and people like Azekai, Iron Father Ferrum, and Plaguecaster politely answer your question, try actually being polite in return. They answered your questions. They gave you examples. But because it wasn't a picture book answer or a word for word transcription, you chose to be an arrogant snot in return. All because they didn't gibe you the answer you wanted. Heck, I'm expecting that by the time I get home, you'll be replying "But those aren't daemon engines so it isn't the same thing." They're daemons.

 

The background doesn't care what form they come in, only that they are all daemons. Get used to it. You might have to do some deductive reasonjng and abstract thinking when it comes to 40K. Because all of the answers are parallels and spread out.

 

So learn some manners and when someone answers your questions, then be polite and say thank you, even when it isn't an answer you want.

[Kol Saresk]

I changed my mind. You're not worth the effort. You already have the answers.

[Excessus]

I'm at work but remember to play nice guys. 

[Berzerker88]

Ooh! Here's another one from a different short story in the same anthology where Ctesias tortures a daemonhost that he himself created. Much more different than a daemon existing in its pure warpform like the last example, no?

The creature tried to raise its head from the altar. Silver chains clinked as it moved, and symbols on the altar glowed brighter. White candles burned with a steady green light at the edge of my sight, but they did nothing to banish the darkness of the chamber. The only true illumination was the cold glow of my staff, and the glow coming from within the chained creature.

I say creature, because that was what it was. The spite of the daemon had swallowed the flesh of the human that I had given it as a host. Its limbs had grown and bent with new joints. Black quills had sprouted from its back and shoulders, and the face was an explosion of fangs and red, lidless eyes. The skin stretched over its bones was transparent and the colour of amber. Within its body, organs floated like jellyfish and blood vessels were threads of red light. The man I had taken from the Sycorax’s machine decks remained only as a twitching pulse of soul light, shrinking as the imprisoned daemon ate it.

The creature strained against the chains for a second, and then flopped back onto the altar. It hissed at me, its face pulsing.

I sighed. It was the fourth daemon I had bound and put to the question, and so far each of them had proved as unhelpful as the last. It was not the most powerful daemon I could summon, but it was cunning and knowing. I had more, thousands more, all bound by their true names that I broke into fragments and kept in my memory. The shards of those names scratched at the edge of my thoughts, like insects in boxes. They wanted me to let them out.

If things did not start going better, some of them might get their wish, I thought. How many more times would I have to go through this tedious cycle before Ahriman at last accepted that there was no way of finding what he sought.

Knowing him, I was not sure that we would ever reach that point. I was more likely to run out of human hosts, daemons to questions and patience long before he would admit defeat. He had given this task to me and to me alone. While he sat in his tower and cast his mind into the realm of dreams, I had to find a way to do the impossible. I had to find a way out of the Eye of Terror.

‘Give it to me,’ I said, and the moisture of my breath fell as a frost through the psychically charged air. ‘Give it to me and I will release you, and burn the memory of your true name from my mind.’

The creature hissed, and strained against the chains again.

‘Very well,’ I said, and closed my eyes for a few seconds. I was really very tired.

I moved away from the altar to where the shadows hid iron shelves worked into the chamber’s walls. My hand found the stone jar I was looking for, and my fingers tingled as I picked it up. My mind formed a series of words, and the pictograms on the jar’s surface lit with a molten glow. I let go of my staff and it began to rotate in place beside me. The jar’s lid came free in my hand. The smell of grave rot filled the air. I walked towards the creature on the altar. It had shrunk. The iron quills bristled from its flesh. Every one of its eyes fixed on the jar in my hand.

Daemons do not feel fear. They do not feel anything that we might consider emotion. They are emotion. A daemon is hate, desire and rage all congealed into things that want nothing more than to burn the mortal world that created them. They don’t fear any more than a fish drowns. But rules and rivalries run through every mote of their existence, unbreakable and undeniable. And because of that nature there are things that even they cannot bear. There are things which, if they were mortal, we would say terrify them. I could banish the daemon. I could bind it for aeons, but both those were not threat enough. So instead I was going to give this daemon to another of its kind. I was going to let its essence be consumed by its antithesis. I was going to feed it to a daemon of decay.

'I know my feelings on this are both irrelevant and incomprehensible to you, but I would really rather not do this.’

I stepped up to the altar and looked down at the creature. It was very still. For a second it almost seemed like a living thing.

'I do not say that from pity. Just in case that was a point of confusion. It is more that while this will be as bad as such things can be for your kind, it will cost me as much to replace the resources that I am expending on this question.’ I reached into the jar. The thing which emerged between my fingers looked like a scorpion made of polished bone and dried sinew. Its legs shifted with a dull creak as it clung to my hand. ‘But needs must.'

The creature of the altar exploded upwards, screeching, limbs writhing, skin stretching. The chains snapped tight, and sigils flared on the altar. I muttered a word and dropped the thing of bone from my fingers. It grew as it fell, bone legs snapping out, sacks of yellow venoms swelling across its back. It landed on the creature. Scraps of flesh and skin sprayed up as it scrabbled into the creature’s torso. Oily black smoke poured into the air with overlapping cries of birds. The creature was juddering, its flesh crawling with blisters, its veins clotting to black rot.

“Give it to me,’ I spat. The creature on the altar was shaking from side to side so fast that it was a chained blur. The click of bones and the hiss of venom beat in my ears as the scorpion dug deeper into the red meat. ‘Give me the way to find Antilline Abyss.’

‘Gates… of… Ruin…’ The words rose from the creature. I raised my hand over it and spoke a silent word. The thing of bone and decay went still inside the creature’s mangled torso.

‘The Gates of Ruin?’ I repeated softly.

‘All those who tread the path you seek only reach it through the Gates of Ruin.'

Excerpt From: French, John. “Ahriman: Exodus.” iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

So, I'll continue to get spurces. But going back to the first posters whom you rudely rebuked for trying to answer your question, "It's magic."

They use the same magics they use to create the daemons to continue binding them into obedience.

The reasons many daemon engines are chained while in transit, is because the sorcerers, warpsmiths, and heretek priests would drop dead from the exhaustion of forcing a daemon against its will all the time.

Also, there is no such thing as a "willingly summoned daemon." All daemons are summoned against their will. Especially those like the Ragged Knight which are then trapped in a piece of vellum. Which is a lot worse than a mechanical construct.

Deals can be struck with daemons after they are summoned in which the warlord or summoner will barter whatever the daemon might be interested in for its obedience. But those have to happen after the summoning.

Oh, and one more thing to keep in mind. The next time you come onto these forums and you ask a question, and people like Azekai, Iron Father Ferrum, and Plaguecaster politely answer your question, try actually being polite in return. They answered your questions. They gave you examples. But because it wasn't a picture book answer or a word for word transcription, you chose to be an arrogant snot in return. All because they didn't gibe you the answer you wanted. Heck, I'm expecting that by the time I get home, you'll be replying "But those aren't daemon engines so it isn't the same thing." They're daemons.

The background doesn't care what form they come in, only that they are all daemons. Get used to it. You might have to do some deductive reasonjng and abstract thinking when it comes to 40K. Because all of the answers are parallels and spread out.

Okay, read all of it. Good reads btw, I'll be sure to check out the Ahriman series afterwards.

 

First fragment: Basically a sorcerer mutters a Daemon's true name to send it back to the warp. I don't know why you posted it.

 

Second fragment: A daemon imprisoned in a temple is forced by a sorcerer to reveal it's true name, then bound using it. The POV character is able to command the Daemon afterwards.

 

Third fragment: The sorcerer questions a daemonhost, threatening to feed it to an anthitesis daemon. Again, not sure why you included it.

 

Of all three, it's clear that only the second is even relevant to the discussion (still good reads though!). But then, it IS a different thing for Daemon Engines.

 

'But Berzerker88, why would it be different for a Daemon Engine if they work the same way?!' you protest.

 

Simple, it doesn't. According to Black Crusade, the contest of wills which occurred in your second fragment that controls the daemon is completely absent in the process of Daemon Engine creation. According to the Tome of Decay, the contest is overriden by the Ritual of Binding, which is the process that puts the daemon inside of the machine. In no place does it say or imply this ritual enslaves the Daemon to it's creator. In fact, it is kept in chains (struggling against them) and sold, yet still chained up until battle where they have been described to take their rage out on anyone. Anyone.

 

So we're getting there, but unless you can cite a ritual or something that has the same effect on *Daemon Engines*, I'm afraid your argument is still invalid.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So let me pose a question to you, then, 88.  If Daemon Engines are uncontrollable rage monsters that will destroy the closest things at hand, then why do the Warpsmiths create them in the first place?  Unless they drop pod them directly into the midst of the enemy, they're useless as weapons.  You have to devote equipment and manpower in keeping them imprisoned when not in combat, resources that could be better employed elsewhere.  Going into combat, you can't actually control them.  The moment you deploy in a battleline on the tabletop, they'll attack the closest unit -- your own units -- which makes them nothing but a liability.  So again, what is the point of making them in the first place?  Would you voluntarily carry a rifle into war knowing that the rifle will kill your squadmates rather than your enemies?

 

Without some means of controlling the engines, they make zero sense.  So without the ability to command built into the rituals of binding, how else can you possibly explain why the engines are seen as useful weapons of war?

[Berzerker88]

So let me pose a question to you, then, 88.  If Daemon Engines are uncontrollable rage monsters that will destroy the closest things at hand, then why do the Warpsmiths create them in the first place?  Unless they drop pod them directly into the midst of the enemy, they're useless as weapons.  You have to devote equipment and manpower in keeping them imprisoned when not in combat, resources that could be better employed elsewhere.  Going into combat, you can't actually control them.  The moment you deploy in a battleline on the tabletop, they'll attack the closest unit -- your own units -- which makes them nothing but a liability.  So again, what is the point of making them in the first place?  Would you voluntarily carry a rifle into war knowing that the rifle will kill your squadmates rather than your enemies?

 

Without some means of controlling the engines, they make zero sense.  So without the ability to command built into the rituals of binding, how else can you possibly explain why the engines are seen as useful weapons of war?

That's precisely my point! It makes no sense and is not useful. I made a whole post ranting about this on the first page, you must have missed it. There is no logical explanation as to why Daemon Engines are even a thing, it's just grimderp and bad narrative.

 

...Or at least that is the conclusion if no evidence to the contrary is provided. And it hasn't so far, but I still have hope someone will find the spell/ritual/mechanism that prevents them from going hostile on your forces.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And now you're missing my point.  Can we provide evidence that satiates you?  Apparently not.  But yet, the fact remains that daemon engines are built, are infested, are employed successfully on the field of battle.  Ergo, there must by definition be a means of controlling them at least to a great degree that justifies the resources that go into creating them.  That we can't find it -- or that you won't accept that it exists -- doesn't mean it isn't there.

[MoGuy]

I knew I had read proof somewhere but now I found the quote! From the novel "Skitarius":

 

 

Warpstreams from totem node columns passed across the surface of furious pits of molten iron, churning them to a vortex. From these hellish gateways, daemonic manifestations and entities were drawn, dragged forth from the horror of the immaterium. As fluxing monstrosities of otherworldly energy seared to form they were scalded into reality by the Abystra-Dynomicron’s molten iron. The polychromatic sheen of liquid metal gave the daemons the monstrous appearance of forge fiends. They screeched. They hissed. They thundered. The spidery automata-arms of possessed machinery moved in with damned choreography, covering the abominations with clinkered plates of barbed, black armour. As the plates were agonisingly riveted and plasma-fused to the daemons’ forms, winches and infernal cherubim manoeuvred mountings and brute experimental weaponry into place.

The forges shook with the corporeal sufferings of the creatures as Dark Mechanicum warpsmiths enslaved them to their will and the underforge crafted them into daemon engines. Stroika watched as the daemon engines stomped forth from their molten birthing pits at the curse-coded command of their warpsmith handlers. Towering walkers of defiled metal and daemonflesh. Scuttling monster-machines of cutting claws and many legs. Cannon-fused traitors whose spiked, glowing tracks chewed up the temple flooring. Forge fiends and maulers that furnace-roared their destructive appetites.

 

There you have it. The Warpsmiths ENSLAVE the Daemon Engines and COMMAND them. So yes, the Daemons bound within suffer and are angry etc but they are subordinate to their Warpsmiths and are indeed controllable enough to be produced in great numbers. Where's my cookie? :P

[Terkael]

So let me pose a question to you, then, 88. If Daemon Engines are uncontrollable rage monsters that will destroy the closest things at hand, then why do the Warpsmiths create them in the first place? Unless they drop pod them directly into the midst of the enemy, they're useless as weapons. You have to devote equipment and manpower in keeping them imprisoned when not in combat, resources that could be better employed elsewhere. Going into combat, you can't actually control them. The moment you deploy in a battleline on the tabletop, they'll attack the closest unit -- your own units -- which makes them nothing but a liability. So again, what is the point of making them in the first place? Would you voluntarily carry a rifle into war knowing that the rifle will kill your squadmates rather than your enemies?

 

Without some means of controlling the engines, they make zero sense. So without the ability to command built into the rituals of binding, how else can you possibly explain why the engines are seen as useful weapons of war?

Good inductive reasoning, i think often times the idea of daemon engines going crazy is mostly meant to increase drama because we all know chaos is crazy amiright? But really we chaos worshippers have been doing this for thousands of years and why make them if they dont work? Oftentimes they are treated as almost disposable compared to our other engines of war so the process must be pretty streamlined and at least somewhat reliable.

[Berzerker88]

I knew I had read proof somewhere but now I found the quote! From the novel "Skitarius":

 

 

 

 

 

Warpstreams from totem node columns passed across the surface of furious pits of molten iron, churning them to a vortex. From these hellish gateways, daemonic manifestations and entities were drawn, dragged forth from the horror of the immaterium. As fluxing monstrosities of otherworldly energy seared to form they were scalded into reality by the Abystra-Dynomicron’s molten iron. The polychromatic sheen of liquid metal gave the daemons the monstrous appearance of forge fiends. They screeched. They hissed. They thundered. The spidery automata-arms of possessed machinery moved in with damned choreography, covering the abominations with clinkered plates of barbed, black armour. As the plates were agonisingly riveted and plasma-fused to the daemons’ forms, winches and infernal cherubim manoeuvred mountings and brute experimental weaponry into place.

The forges shook with the corporeal sufferings of the creatures as Dark Mechanicum warpsmiths enslaved them to their will and the underforge crafted them into daemon engines. Stroika watched as the daemon engines stomped forth from their molten birthing pits at the curse-coded command of their warpsmith handlers. Towering walkers of defiled metal and daemonflesh. Scuttling monster-machines of cutting claws and many legs. Cannon-fused traitors whose spiked, glowing tracks chewed up the temple flooring. Forge fiends and maulers that furnace-roared their destructive appetites.

There you have it. The Warpsmiths ENSLAVE the Daemon Engines and COMMAND them. So yes, the Daemons bound within suffer and are angry etc but they are subordinate to their Warpsmiths and are indeed controllable enough to be produced in great numbers. Where's my cookie? :P

At last! Praised be the almighty Bloodfather! Here you go, have whole plate of them:

 

 

But seriously, well done. You killed two birds with one stone. So it was 'cursed codes' in the end, part of the machinery instead of 'magic'. Really makes you think.

[Kol Saresk]

What's that? Scrapcode is a binary translation of the Dark Tongue, the language sorcerers use to work their magic, including in the summoning, binding, and banishing of daemons? Of which I provided examples of Ctesias speaking when he said the true names of daemons?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Tongue

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Tongue

If someone has Wrath of Magnus, can they provide the relevant passage? it's somewhere in Chapter 4.

[MoGuy]

 

 

But seriously, well done. You killed two birds with one stone. So it was 'cursed codes' in the end, part of the machinery instead of 'magic'. Really makes you think. 

 

Thanks, glad I could help! Now to enslave those cookies to my stomach...!

[Berzerker88]

What's that? Scrapcode is a binary translation of the Dark Tongue, the language sorcerers use to work their magic, including in the summoning, binding, and banishing of daemons? Of which I provided examples of Ctesias speaking when he said the true names of daemons?http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Tonguehttp://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Tongue

If someone has Wrath of Magnus, can they provide the relevant passage? it's somewhere in Chapter 4.

Didn't the fragment state the Daemon was controlled by the Warpsmith, though? Furthermore none of the images you posted say anything about controlling Daemons, only corrupting machine spirits. So if you clear that up it's be appreciated... It'd make sense that both Sorcerers and Warpsmiths could control Daemon Engines, since there are warbands which lack one or the other.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Dude, your own go-to source, the Tome of Plague, even stated that they were controlled. You mention the Ritual of Binding rules, but missed that under Price of Failure it states "the binding fails and the daemon breaks free of the Heretics control", which obviously means that if the ritual succeeds then the daemon engine is under control. Now "with their mighty daemon engine created and (hopefully) under control", it goes on to detail the Binding Strength of the daemon determined by how well your ritual of binding went, and which are the rules used for daemonhosts and daemon weapons to determine how controllable they are.

 

It then also has the rules for daemon engine Minions, stating "most commanders unleash daemon engines, letting the enraged beasts slaughter what they want with no direct control. However, some hold power over these colossal beasts and command them at will, often with a simple gesture". The rules then state you can take a Daemonic Mastery test to see if the daemon engine does what you want, exactly like any other daemon.

 

Your entire argument was "the rules in this one rpg call rituals two different names", and that Defilers are mentioned killing frielndly troops, ignoring that the rpg infers that the rituals act the same in every other way, only differing in one summoning daemons normally, and the other putting them inside something, and also that killing friendly troops is what daemons do. They're daemons. Daemon engines just give you something to chain down first, rather than having cultists standing ready with handcuffs to stop your Bloodletters from killing anyone whose blood they think is tasty.

 

No, nothing's really been written much about "to control daemon engines you must do xyz", but then again, we haven't had anything written on how Tau get food brought to their infantry while on campaign, but nobody argues that the Tau should have starved to death by now. Instead, we assume that it must happen in the background without us necessarily being told, because they obviously haven't starved. Same thing here.

[Panzer]

Extrapolating really isn't one of your strengths, Berzerker88. :D

[Kol Saresk]

You have access to the Brass Scorpions. I assume that means you have access to IA13? Try reading it. Then use deductive reasoning from the two places where it talks about Warpsmiths, Sorcerers, and Diabolists making daemon engines.

[Berzerker88]

Dude, your own go-to source, the Tome of Plague, even stated that they were controlled. You mention the Ritual of Binding rules, but missed that under Price of Failure it states "the binding fails and the daemon breaks free of the Heretics control", which obviously means that if the ritual succeeds then the daemon engine is under control. Now "with their mighty daemon engine created and (hopefully) under control", it goes on to detail the Binding Strength of the daemon determined by how well your ritual of binding went, and which are the rules used for daemonhosts and daemon weapons to determine how controllable they are.

 

It then also has the rules for daemon engine Minions, stating "most commanders unleash daemon engines, letting the enraged beasts slaughter what they want with no direct control. However, some hold power over these colossal beasts and command them at will, often with a simple gesture". The rules then state you can take a Daemonic Mastery test to see if the daemon engine does what you want, exactly like any other daemon.

 

Your entire argument was "the rules in this one rpg call rituals two different names", and that Defilers are mentioned killing frielndly troops, ignoring that the rpg infers that the rituals act the same in every other way, only differing in one summoning daemons normally, and the other putting them inside something, and also that killing friendly troops is what daemons do. They're daemons. Daemon engines just give you something to chain down first, rather than having cultists standing ready with handcuffs to stop your Bloodletters from killing anyone whose blood they think is tasty.

 

No, nothing's really been written much about "to control daemon engines you must do xyz", but then again, we haven't had anything written on how Tau get food brought to their infantry while on campaign, but nobody argues that the Tau should have starved to death by now. Instead, we assume that it must happen in the background without us necessarily being told, because they obviously haven't starved. Same thing here.

I thought that too at first, but then if you read carefully it clearly refers to how well caged the daemon is, not how controllable. On the Price of Failure at the ritual of binding, the daemon bursts out of his prison and attacks everyone. Note that it exits the machine first. The book then mentions how some individuals are able to control them 'with a gesture', but does not explain how, so my question was perfectly valid.

 

@sfPanzer Well the reason I made this thread was because I didn't want to make assumptions.

 

@Kol Saresk I don't have that book.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I thought that too at first, but then if you read carefully it clearly refers to how well caged the daemon is, not how controllable. On the Price of Failure at the ritual of binding, the daemon bursts out of his prison and attacks everyone. Note that it exits the machine first. The book then mentions how some individuals are able to control them 'with a gesture', but does not explain how, so my question was perfectly valid.

Yes it does. You do so with a Daemonic Mastery test, which you have first done while summoning the daemon to bind it, too, and which is described as a "battle of wills between the summoner and daemon", and which is modified by the Binding Strength of the daemon engine, ie hoe easy it is to control. A low binding strength means the daemon has higher Willpower, and thus is harder to overcome in your mastery test. So yeah, it actually does say how you control them with a gesture.

 

You seem to be under the impression that a daemon engine is some radically different entity from a standard daemon, but it really isn't. The bound daemon controls the engine, and you control the daemon the same way you do any other daemon. With ritual. With sorcery. With the favour of the gods. With fear of banishment.

 

Or, to translate that into rpg terms, with a Daemonic Mastery test, the exact same way you control any other daemon, as we've been saying, and you've been denying, all through the thread.

 

Scrapcode? That's just 40k-talk for technomancy. It's a summoning circle in javascript. It's Chaos sorcery, broken down into its fundamental binary, and forged into programming language incantations. The only difference is you don't need to be a psyker to use it, you just run BIND.DEF1LER.exe, and sit back.

 

Sure, there are probably hereteks out there that have bound engines so thoroughly that you can control them like a daemonic remote control car, but most are done the same way as a summoned Bloodthirster, like in every extract we linked, but you dismissed because the Ragged Knight wasn't wearing a Rhino chassis. The engine just gives the daemon something stable to tether it in reality, like a metal daemonhost.

 

And yes, it also gives you something solid to already have AxeSlaughterKill the Bloodthirster chained down with, rather than simply trusting your pact will hold. Now, if he decides to get uppity and test your power, he's already chained down, rather than elbow-deep in the viscera of your bodyguards, and looking hungrily at your organs. Sure, he promised to serve faithfully when he was summoned and bound, but can you really trust that it was due to your bindings? He's a friggin daemon, they lie all the time.

 

Some, however, don't give a damn about their cultist hordes, think time strengthening bindings is valuable time not hitting things with a chainaxe, and so bind it just enough to keep it in the shell, chain it down, and let 'em loose when the time is right.

[Kol Saresk]

Wait. The progression of this whole thread is you asking a question, people answering that question, you telling everyone who answered all of your questions that they're wrong because even though they're providing source after source, you have your one source, and at the end of it all, you're saying "you didn't want to assume"?

Oh boy.

Well I'm going to show you some pictures from IA13. I'm positive that through the powers of extrapolation and deductive reasoning(or elementary reasoning as Sherlock Holmes would describe it), that your first response is going to be "why didn't you show this earlier?"

To which my answer will be "I showed you three passages concerning the summoning and controlling of daemons and your response was 'that has nothing to do with the topic'. So, since these pictures are to do with the creation of daemon engines and not the controlling of after a battle, it was obvious you'd just ignore these."

[Panzer]

I think this thread should get closed now. The question got answered (multiple times) and it's only going downhill from here on.

[Cryptix]

Just leave it alone guys before someone gets in trouble, he got his answer 

[Kol Saresk]

I was just answering the last question of how sorcerers are involved in the creation of daemon engines. That's it. I plan on looking at the pretty pictures in IA13 for the rest of the day. Like the Sons of Malice Thunderhawk. So pretty.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Just going to close this topic to let thing settle down a bit.  This topic will be re-open once I've had time to look though post & get this back on track.