I have lost my way

[aura_enchanted]

I am at a loss brothers, and I seek your greater wisdom.

 

I have the index in front of my and I'll be upfront I am afraid to build a list. I feel paralyzed and unable to find recourse. I sort of start and then my ability to formulate a lineup sort of runs aground. In 6th edition and in 4th many moons ago I found my way. In 7th it took me a while but I eventually made it work. With the index in front of me. Nothing makes sense and I just feel so lost with it all.

 

So I have come seeking council. Everything feels grossly over valued, and the general upmark on everyone's armies aside I don't feel like I can carve out a force without surrendering an incredible amount of quality in order to ensure I have enough quantity within a list.

 

I feel like TAC's just can't assemble themselves in 8th for me.

Edited July 6, 2017 by aura_enchanted

[Frater Cornelius]

As a kid I was afraid to jump into deep murky water. What helped? Someone throwing me inside :D

 

Just build random stuff and keep trying. We are all so used to standard setup and netlisting that the great joy of a new installment is lost on us. The best part about a new edition is noone knows what works. It is a case of trying and failing and trying against. Sort like a TCG, where is a new set just released, everyone got the cards and noone knows what works. There will always be theorycrafters, who tell you to avoid certain models, but this usually falls flat at one point or another.

 

Here's a hint for getting into it. Get yourself a unit or a theme and build around it, then make the necessary alterations as you try it. For example, I really like Ezekiel. What looks cool with it? Maybe some more Psykers. I enjoy the mysterious theme of it, so Scouts and Dark Shroud are a thing. Cowled DWK with a Watcher and maybe Tacs as fillers and the Darktalon in the sky. That sort of thing. Maybe not the most optimal setup, but in my eyes it has certain flavour.

 

If you want to do efficient list-testing, find someone to play engineered scenarios or quick 2 turn games with to see how units perform. Something I also like to do is play a unit from each organisational slot, maybe even equal-ish point distribution across the slots to try out stuff I never played before. Also, remember that this is an Index, not Codex, so you are naturally you are limited in terms of flavour.

 

You can always wait for the internet to figure it out, but that sort of defeats the purpose of playing. In this case it is not about optimizing, but just trying things out.

[dtse]

Could look in list forum for help. Lots of people posting lists there. Start from there and change things or just take one and play it and see what you like

[Caboosegg]

probably because they have changed everything drastically. you can rely on old themes or list.

 

im having the same issue to the point im sticking to my HH with 7th until the DA codex comes out.

 

alot of the rules seem weaker (darkshroud) but without playing the game and understanding how it actually impacts play it gets hard to judge for list building.

[dtse]

Er yea. Darkshroud is much stronger. Play the game. Don't be afraid.

[jbaeza94]

I'm in the same boat. What i ended up deciding is, im gonna build the models I want. Plasma cannon tacs, gun slinger vets (I hope that's still a thing), drop pods, razor backs. I guess I'm just not too worried about how effective they are for now. I'll just make them and have some fun. If you don't mind losing a bit, just go fluffy and fun

[aura_enchanted]

Well I'm not even a comp player or a guy who copycats others lists. I'm afraid to pick almost a single thing because of how expensive stuff. I've picked one or two things out as stuff to build around but when I get going. I sort of run aground time and again and it's starting to get agitating

 

Like if you guys want I could show you how and what I'm doing in a seperate thread or maybe a mod could move this to the army list threads and I could start a list and maybe you people could help me from there. As I really don't know where to go from the start.

Edited July 6, 2017 by aura_enchanted

[stuka06]

Up until now, I've only played a single game. 

The main things I've learned are, anti Tank weapons make sense. Focus them. Get units that give you rerolls. Get units that give you more dice.

Deathwing Terminators got tarpitted by some CSM cause they have too few attacks that only hit on a 4+

[dtse]

Yea. Just post s list in other forum. Do what everyone else does. Not sure why you are so afraid. Nothing bad can happen

[Brother Worsey]

I'm afraid to pick almost a single thing because of how expensive stuff. 

 

Pretty much everything got more expensive in general so you're never going to field the same list in 8e as you did in 7e. Try and avoid thinking like that. You could start with a 7e list, calculate it for 8e and then trim it down until you get to 2k, which is how I did it for my first game last week - had to drop a couple of RWAS comprising 2 x LS and 3 MM AB's bikes total. I'll be trying the theme route over the next few weeks and just generally playing as many flavours of units as I can until I see what I like and how they work. 

[Berzul]

The best thing this edition is that everyone got their prices upped, so even though making a list in the way we were used to from 7th ed, everyone is dealing with the same, so it is somewhat of a leveled playing field.

[Brother dean]

First start with what you know.  Right now for me that is Termies...  Probably expanding to Bikes.

[Xenith]

Sounds like you should start with power levels.

 

No point trying to build an optimised min-max army before you've even played a game.

[SvenONE]

I've played about 5 games so far, and I've got a campaign more or less finished and ready to go with my Necron friend of mine who is coming back into the game as well.  I'm probably on pace to play more in the month of July than I ever did in 7th edition.  I used 2 old lists that I liked in 6th/7th and then just kind of went all over the place with the various things I had in my collection (using points, not power).

 

To me, GW's pushing this game to the brink of dysfunctional to now forced me to stop caring and adopt a different perspective.  That worked for me, maybe it could work for you?  Or at least help ease you back in?  I just embrace the dice rolling and the fun, even if DA has lost just about ALL of its personality.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I am at a loss brothers, and I seek your greater wisdom.

 

I have the index in front of my and I'll be upfront I am afraid to build a list. I feel paralyzed and unable to find recourse. I sort of start and then my ability to formulate a lineup sort of runs aground. In 6th edition and in 4th many moons ago I found my way. In 7th it took me a while but I eventually made it work. With the index in front of me. Nothing makes sense and I just feel so lost with it all.

 

So I have come seeking council. Everything feels grossly over valued, and the general upmark on everyone's armies aside I don't feel like I can carve out a force without surrendering an incredible amount of quality in order to ensure I have enough quantity within a list.

 

I feel like TAC's just can't assemble themselves in 8th for me.

 

Hi aura,

 

hope you don't mind a Wolf player like me advising you. I'll try to be methodical to elevate your stress because I felt like I was playing a whole new ball game too when the Index came out and everything looked almost alien.

 

You remember the old meme "Keep Calm and make a list?" It applies here. Except don't burden yourself with point costs yet. Just make what you want, maybe something you were already using in 7th Ed.

 

For me, I used to make my lists in Excel in order to train myself to eventually learn/memorize the costs of individual units.

 

1) Close to the back of the Index Imperium 1, focus on 4 sections: 

 

  a) The Space Marine Equipment Points Lists, which will have the list of the usual suspects in Space Marine armoury like melta, plasma, flamers and grav.

  b)The Space Marine unit Points Lists, which will have the basic units like tacticals, Librarians, devastators and Captains.

  c) The Dark Angel Equipment Points Lists, which will have the list of your Unforgiven stuff like Blade of Caliban, Plasma Battery, Corvus hammers etc.

  d)The Dark Angel unit Points Lists, which will have the unique stuff like Deathwing, Ravenwing, Azrael and Ezekiel

 

2) Try to copy the names and point costs of as many of them into a worksheet, one for Units, another for equipment. You don't need to copy all, just the ones you know you will probably buy and use, like special weapons, heavy weapons. Obviously you  won't be using a Stormraven or Centuriouns so forget about them.

 

3) Prepare a list using your usual stuff in 7th Ed depending on playstyle. Start small, like 2 HQs and 2 Tacticals, or maybe what the old squads in Dark Vengeance box uses. Put the units and equipment first. Then after that reference to the appropriate costs.

 

Now some things to note especially for a non-codex compliant chapter

1) costs have gone up and down quite a bit. Combi weapons for example, are no longer the same, with melta being the most expensive instead of plasma. In contrast, plasma is now more reliable and cheaper, especially pistols which are nearly pennies compared to before.

 

In regards to Power weapons, main thing to take note is that power swords are better than axes in armour piercing potency now, except they are at user strength. But as a Dark Angel, I expect most of your CC weapons are swords.

 

2) All unit costs DOES NOT INCLUDE their weapons. Meaning the cost listed for a Captain for example, is assuming he has no weapons, frags or kraks. So you must buy all weapons from the equipment list. That being said, weapons like bolters, frags, kraks and chainswords are normally Zero anyway.

 

3) In the Dark Angels section, you may think you are missing stuff like Librarians, Company Masters and chaplains. Not to worry, there is a list of units/characters that the Dark Angels can take from the Space Marine sections which is stated in the DA section. You still have your Deathwing, Azrael, Ravenwing, Dark Talon, Darkshroud and others in your DA section.

 

4) Take your time and practice with Excel until you are familiar with new costs and options.

 

5) Weapons wise, plasma no longer blows up in your face unless you WANT to risk it. They're good backup anti-tank but role is still anti-infantry. Plasma pistols are cheap as chips and can fire into combat during shooting phase. A lucky overcharged shot can kill a Dreadnought or a two wound terminator.

 

Won't confuse you anymore but I hope this helps.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Kasper_Hawser

[Brother_Bethor]

I'm yet to play my first 8^th ed. game (which is going to happen on Sunday) but I have one thing to say: just bring the points/power level cap up. Play some games with different points cap and see for yourself how much is best for you. Maybe we all will be soon playing battles of 3000 or even more points per side.

[Kasper_Hawser]

One golden unit I'll mention now: The Razorback with Twin Assault cannon. Twelve shots baby! Oh yeah! Finally Marines can bring in the dakka.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

One golden unit I'll mention now: The Razorback with Twin Assault cannon. Twelve shots baby! Oh yeah! Finally Marines can bring in the dakka.

 

Two of them are staples in my lists these days. 100 points for T7 10W 3+ tank with 12 shots is a great deal for reliable horde clearing, and somewhat reliable MEQ killing. Put em next to Azreal and they are downright deadly.

[ValourousHeart]

My suggestion is to pull back and only use power level to start with. When you don't even know what you want to field, sorting out points is just an exercise in self-flagellation.

 

95-105 power is in the neighborhood of 2000 points. And at this point is good enough, until you get a better idea about the list that you want to run.

 

Playing 25 to 50 point games goes super fast. And if you are simply looking for 2 turn games to test units they go even faster.

 

Try units and options you have always used, try units and options you have never used. Try a theme. Try no theme, you know chaos (but not that chaos).

 

The beauty is that there are no wrong choices.

 

I'm running a list completely made up of land speeders, and it is a blast to play. Sure they aren't as durable as land raiders, but they never were. But the list is giving what it gets and usually better.

 

And that is refreshing, because in previous editions the list either wasn't viable.

 

Now I probably won't stick with this list forever, but for now I'm having a ton of fun.