Power v Points (balance issue)

[LutherMax]

I have my first game of 8th coming up and my opponent and I decided to use a Power limit rather than points to keep it simple – and just to try out the new method.

 

We agreed a 100 Power limit, but when I asked (just out of interest) how many points that equated to in my opponent's list he said 2138 whereas I was on 1878 – a 260 point difference!

 

 

Not exactly balanced...

 

 

Is this just because Power levels are not designed for Matched play and should not be used? I don't remember that being explicit in the rules...

[WarriorFish]

I don't think they're meant to be comparative, if they were there wouldn't be any point in having two systems for the same result.

 

It's just two ways to get games in depending on your needs/wants. I imagine Power is great for quick games and introductions etc but if you want more parity (in theory) then Points is what you want :)

[LutherMax]

That makes sense. Seems as though there should be more explanation of that in the rules. Neither concept is even mentioned on the pages describing Open and Matched play. Weird.

[Marqol]

Yeah as WarriorFish said they work differently. From what I understand Power Points give a rough indication of effect a unit has on the field where actual points is more precise balancing. The main difference when converting to points comes from upgrades, they are free in Power Points generally but you can be paying a hefty price in points. 

[Commander Dawnstar]

Power Levels and Points aren't really designed to be used against each other. In theory it works out at approximately 20 points per 1 Power, but in practice a unit's Power Level represents a semi-kitted out version of said unit and thus units that either don't take much gear or go with the "Everything's free, so I might as well take everything" ethos can end up more than a little out of step with that ratio. Power Levels are more meant to get two reasonably even armies on the board (and give both players more scope to take whatever unit loadouts they want) than to achieve true parity.

 

 

[LutherMax]

In fairness it does talk about points under 'Battle-Forged Armies' in the Index – I still think some mention of it should be made in the main rule book but hey ho!

[Charlo]

Played 100PL last night. I think his was a little over 2k and mine was about 1800 in terms of real points.

 

Still felt very balanced - instances where you get a lot of wargear free comes out in the wash with both sides getting access to it. It's only in extreme cases (ALL of my death company have Thunder Hammers!) where it doesn't.

 

If you just want to play it works nicely, especially as you could be within 5 power level and it's pretty much all fine.

[LutherMax]

That's interesting. I'm not sure whether the points disparity was due to him going all out with wargear and me not (due to how my stuff is modeled and wanting to by WYSIWYG) – or my stuff just being cheaper?!

 

A 260 point gap between 2 Power seemed a lot but maybe it's not really that much...

[Halandaar]

It's going to be gear most of the time. An unupgraded 5-man Company Veterans squad is 9 power. You can give them all 150~ points worth of Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers, but they'd still cost 9 power.

[Charlo]

I think the consensus is that 100PL is ABOUT 1750 to 2k?

...I think

[the jeske]

Only it isn't. Power points are ok, if you play two armies with simiular options and no one uses FW units. If one side has an army that does not have a lot of upgrades on its dudes [lets say you have a swarm of dudes with no upgrades or you play something like SoB], then it is going to be drasticly different from lets say a marine player who suddenly has storm shields and plasma guns on every possible dude. Some examples are of course extrem, but they do show how "balanced" the system is. Just take a tooled up DC or any type of honor guard/venguard vet unit and compare it power points cost to a unit that little to no upgrades.

[Adeptus]

A fairly rigorous adherance to WYSIWYG makes power levels much more balanced. Your Death Company can only have as many Thunder Hammers as you actually have Thunder Hammer models. Since there's effectively no roster in a power level game (you just pay the points and add the unit to your roster, upgrades are free so why list them?) then really, WYSIWYG is the only way to tell how your various units are outfitted.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, I really like Power. I prefer it to Points to be honest. It's faster, easier, and gels well with the WYSIWYG ethos that I have always had (hail Stillman!). I've been writing a lot of army lists lately to update all my forces to 8th Edition and it is absolutely bang on that 1 Power = 20 points, and that a unit's Power Level is a mid-point between no upgrades and ALL THE THINGS.

Power > Points really, unless you're playing in a tournament environment. Power is awesome for PUGs.

[LutherMax]

Yeah, I really like Power. I prefer it to Points to be honest. It's faster, easier, and gels well with the WYSIWYG ethos that I have always had (hail Stillman!). I've been writing a lot of army lists lately to update all my forces to 8th Edition and it is absolutely bang on that 1 Power = 20 points, and that a unit's Power Level is a mid-point between no upgrades and ALL THE THINGS.

 

Power > Points really, unless you're playing in a tournament environment. Power is awesome for PUGs.

How do you explain the disparity between mine and my opponent's lists then? He had 100PL at 2138 points and I had 98PL at 1878 points – so a clear advantage to him of 260 points.

 

I could close the gap by adding upgrades in the list but then my pre-built models wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

 

To use Power effectively AND be WYSIWYG you basically have to give all your models all the best, most expensive upgrades – which then might not be good for points games.

Edited July 6, 2017 by LutherMax

[Noserenda]

How did the game actually go btw? Im interested if that gap was actually important? 

Power Level works fine depending on the units involved, some that have a huge amount of customisation tend the break it though :/

[LutherMax]

How did the game actually go btw? Im interested if that gap was actually important? 

 

Power Level works fine depending on the units involved, some that have a huge amount of customisation tend the break it though :/

The game hasn't happened yet – we're switching to points to make it balanced.

 

It may not have been a big deal, but it's the equivalent of one person having a free 10-man Terminator squad – so potentially fairly significant I would say!

[Xenith]

 

How did the game actually go btw? Im interested if that gap was actually important? 

 

Power Level works fine depending on the units involved, some that have a huge amount of customisation tend the break it though :/

The game hasn't happened yet – we're switching to points to make it balanced.

 

It may not have been a big deal, but it's the equivalent of one person having a free 10-man Terminator squad – so potentially fairly significant I would say!

 

 

Except a 10 man termie squad is 26 power, or about 500+ pts. You could take a power fist on every DC model in a 10 man unit to balance it up.

 

Sure, it's possible to abuse the power levels, but they are there to let you use "inefficient" units that wouldn't see the light of day in 7th.

 

I say play with the power levels and see if the point discrepancy actually makes a difference to the game.

[LutherMax]

 

 

How did the game actually go btw? Im interested if that gap was actually important? 

 

Power Level works fine depending on the units involved, some that have a huge amount of customisation tend the break it though :/

The game hasn't happened yet – we're switching to points to make it balanced.

 

It may not have been a big deal, but it's the equivalent of one person having a free 10-man Terminator squad – so potentially fairly significant I would say!

 

 

Except a 10 man termie squad is 26 power, or about 500+ pts. You could take a power fist on every DC model in a 10 man unit to balance it up.

 

Sure, it's possible to abuse the power levels, but they are there to let you use "inefficient" units that wouldn't see the light of day in 7th.

 

I say play with the power levels and see if the point discrepancy actually makes a difference to the game.

 

 

Ah my bad – I looked at the points cost per Termie (26) but that doesn't include even the basic loadout (storm bolter + power fist) right?

[Charlo]

 

To use Power effectively AND be WYSIWYG you basically have to give all your models all the best, most expensive upgrades – which then might not be good for points games.

 

And there in lies the beauty of both systems.

 

Power is aimed as more casual players who will equip models with what looks cool and what they like. More for the "I've bought this box of DC and so have given one a Hammer, two chainswords and two inferno pistols and power weapons." and not for the "I've bought a box of DC and 4 extra thunder hammers to make the ultimate killing unit and break the system."

 

If you already have a force built around points, it's more likely your opponent will too, so either system will be fine as long as you wysiwyg - it's only when people go mad and abuse the system at this early time you then get imbalance.

[Xenith]

 

 

 

To use Power effectively AND be WYSIWYG you basically have to give all your models all the best, most expensive upgrades – which then might not be good for points games.

 

And then you would be, quite literally, a Power Gamer....

 

 

I'll see myself out.

[LutherMax]

I think you're spot on Charlo. If your models were built based on points (which as pre-existing gamers all of ours were), when you needed to be somewhat conservative on upgrade spend, it won't be 'optimum' when using Power.

 

It probably wouldn't be that big a deal in most cases but with all the talk of 'balancing the game' that preceded 8th I think I'll stick to points for now. As I mentioned before points are mentioned under Battle-Forged Armies in the Index so to be honest I think that's the intention.

Edited July 6, 2017 by LutherMax

[Jacinda]

ta da BOOM
tish

[Charlo]

If you are playing with PL and also trying to use the word "optimum" then I think that means you need to be playing points :P

[LutherMax]

Yeah - basically it's not really for matched play: "where one side has no particular advantage".

 

I hope I don't come across as "that guy" - I've never considered myself a WAAC player, but I do like a level playing field. That doesn't make me a "power gamer", does it?!

 

I mean I can't be, because I never win :D

[Gen.Steiner]

I think Power Levels are best for quick pick-up games, homebrew scenarios, and casual play.

They do allow for a level playing field; and as for the question of how you can be 260 points but only 2 Power Levels out, that's easy: a few points off 'average' either way on each choice by each player soon adds up; but I think you'll find it doesn't make as much of a difference as you fear.