Gunline Canoness

[Purifying Tempest]

Sorry if this has been asked earlier, but has anyone tried a variant of the Canoness with trading her Bolt Pistol for a Bolt Gun, and then her second Bolt Gun for a Ranged Weapon?  I would think a Combi-Plasma or Storm Bolter would be good here, depending on the points crunch.

 

She can now fire both weapons in the same shooting phase, and comes in around 50-60 points depending on configuration. Down side is, she is not the type you want muddling around in melee unless it is something that just needs to not be shooting at other elements of the army.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[Jacinda]

Tempest, my initial thought is "sure, why not."  If you have a Canoness in the back with your ranged support for the re-rolls anyway this would be a nice loadout.

 

Let me do a little "accounting" to see what we will need to make her cost effective.

 

My first look is that for 50-ish points, the Canoness' ability makes nearby units about 17% more effective.  Nice boost.

 

Anyway, counting in her number of shots and the better BS, she needs to be near 78 points of Retributors to be more effective than just adding 50 points more Rets.  But that's just math.  A Canoness going Rambo with  bolter and stormbolter is the cool part.  Two thumbs up!

Edited July 6, 2017 by Jacinda

[A.T.]

I don't think I would take over and above the required just because imagifiers exist, but finding the right place for any required canoness is an interesting question.

 

Though even with its high price i'm always eyeing the eviscerator.

[Purifying Tempest]

Storm Bolter is by far the cheaper, but the interesting thing with the Combi-Canoness comes that she is only 1 shot less effective, but one of those shots has a beefy str/ap boost on it, albeit at a -1 BS penalty.  Speaking of which: does the -1 apply to just the Combi-weapon shots, or ALL weapons fired during that shooting phase?

 

Canoness with Bolter + Storm Bolter: Rapid Fire 1 + Rapid Fire 2 - all STR 4 AP -.

 

Canoness with Bolter + Combi-Plasma: Rapid Fire 1 + Rapid Fire 1 + (optional) Rapid Fire 1.  One of these can always be STR 7, AP -3.  Dropping BS by 1 for the Combi-shots doesn't seem like a dreadful penalty, given that she's rerolling half of her fails... and if you overcharge it, that'd be the dangerous result that's getting rerolled.  I personally still would not go bonkers with overcharged shots, but strategic placement throughout the game could be beneficial.  At least the option is there.

 

But the Plasma is +11 points over the Storm Bolter, so there is a REAL cost with it.

 

This whole line of thinking came about with me trying to do things like Brigade detachments, and eventually a Brigade + Battalion Detachment.  15 CPs in a 2000 point game, 12 in a 1000-1500 level game.  But the problem is the mass of HQs required, and how to keep them cheap enough to fill other slots.  This has been where Storm Bolters really shine.

 

Tossing out Celestine and 4 Canonesses with Eviscerators and a Combi-weapon gets 1) expensive quick, and 2) saturated with units that may not perform the role they need in mass.  I don't need 3 Canonesses roaming the back lines with Eviserators, just seems overkill and a point sink.  :)

 

Not knocking them at all, just after 1 or maybe 2, seems to me like diversity may be better.

[taikishi]

Storm Bolter is by far the cheaper, but the interesting thing with the Combi-Canoness comes that she is only 1 shot less effective, but one of those shots has a beefy str/ap boost on it, albeit at a -1 BS penalty.  Speaking of which: does the -1 apply to just the Combi-weapon shots, or ALL weapons fired during that shooting phase?

 

Canoness with Bolter + Storm Bolter: Rapid Fire 1 + Rapid Fire 2 - all STR 4 AP -.

 

Canoness with Bolter + Combi-Plasma: Rapid Fire 1 + Rapid Fire 1 + (optional) Rapid Fire 1.  One of these can always be STR 7, AP -3.  Dropping BS by 1 for the Combi-shots doesn't seem like a dreadful penalty, given that she's rerolling half of her fails... and if you overcharge it, that'd be the dangerous result that's getting rerolled.  I personally still would not go bonkers with overcharged shots, but strategic placement throughout the game could be beneficial.  At least the option is there.

 

Just the combi-weapon but....

 

The canoness' BS isn't dropped by 1, the attack has a -1 penalty. There is a difference and the difference is this:

 

Per the core rules and first FAQ two weeks ago, re-rolls apply before modifiers but the drawback for overcharging plasma is after modifiers. If your canoness fires both barrels of a combi-plasma and the plasma barrel comes up a 2, you can't re-roll it because it's not a 1. Then the die roll gets modified to a 1 and she dies. Also, if you roll a natural 1 and the re-roll comes up a natural 1, she still dies because the FAQ says to-hit rolls can't be lowered below 1.

 

With re-rolls, a canoness has a 22% chance of dying per shot when firing both barrels of a combi-plasma:

1/6 chance of rolling a 2, 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 followed by a 1/3 chance of rolling a 1 or 2

1/6+1/6*1/3 = 1/6+1/18 = 4/18 = 2/9

 

With re-rolls, a canoness has at 39.5% chance of dying when rapid firing a combi-plasma and firing both barrels

C(death) = 1 - (C(not death)

C(d) = 1 - (2/3 + 1/6 * 2/3)^2

C(d) = 1 - (2/3 + 1/9)^2

C(d) = 1 - (7/9)^2

C(d) = 1 - 49/81

C(d) = 32/81

 

Conversely, if she only ever fires the plasma gun portion she has a 1/36 chance of dying per shot, and a 5.5% chance of dying if her targets are in rapid fire range.

 

A canoness firing both barrels of an overcharged combi-plasma:

* is 11 times more likely to die vs. just firing the plasma barrel overcharged

* is 7 times more likely to die when firing at targets in rapid fire range vs. just firing the plasma barrel overcharged in RF range

* is 78% more likely to die when rapid firing both barrels of an overcharged combi-plasma vs. firing at models over 12" away when firing both barrels of an overcharged combi-plasma.

 

TL;DR, don't overcharge plasma if you're going to fire both barrels unless it's a last-ditch effort to kill something. Then you better make damn well sure you kill it!

Edited July 6, 2017 by taikishi

[Sir_Gaea]

So, is there any reason not to take a combi-melta? Shorter range and more expensive yes, but more likely to deal more damage to tough enemies.

[Purifying Tempest]

The reroll nonsense injected by the new edition makes overcharging even worse, agreed.

 

I don't know of any scenarios where risk/reward justifies one-shotting your 5W ranged buffer, but if someone finds themselves in that position, at least the option is there.

 

Otherwise, it is a 24" Rapid Fire weapon with a STR 7 and -3 AP modifier, which I think does a fine job in mostly any scenario.  The 24" part is really nice, though, as it pairs better with the ranges you'd probably want that Canoness at.  Overall, a Combi-melta would be superior, but that 12" range really makes that Canoness want to advance to get some benefit out of it.

 

I'm really interested in how it looks with the Combi-Plasma vs Storm Bolter, like on a per-point comparison.

 

Combi-Plasma firing both barrels:

 

.66 chance to hit, rerolling natural 1's - should give her about 77% chance to hit with each barrel of the weapon, fired simultaneously.

Assume Toughness 4 (seems a normal number to try to wound vs): needs 3s to wound, or 66% chance to wound.

 

50% Chance to wound with the bolter part.

 

77% Chance of landing a shot, and then 66% chance to wound gives... around 51% chance to inflict a Wound overall vs a T4 model with the plasma portion.  Or .51 wounds per shot, yes?

 

38.5% chance of landing a shot and wound with the bolter portion, or .385 wounds per shot.

 

Total of: .895 wounds per shooting phase vs T4 models.

 

Again, assume Armor 3+ (hi space marines!): 3-3AP = 6+ save = 16.667% chance to save, means that the plasma shot has a 42.5ish% chance of inflicting a wound against that model.

 

Bolter gives no AP, so its chance of inflicting a failed save vs it is: 12.83%

 

Which means the combi-plasma deals .55 wounds per turn?  Sound about right?  Which is a grand total of... 0.0366666 wounds/point.

 

 

Storm Bolter:

 

.83 chance to hit, rerolling 1's, which ups it to about 96-97% hit chance?  Sounds right.

Wound stats will be the same as the bolter in the above example.  So 50% chance to wound, no AP.

 

.965 x .50 x .33333 = .1608 wounds per shot, double that for non-rapid fire range = .3216 wounds per round of firing.  Which is a total of .1608 wounds/point.

 

So it looks like the point/wound of the Storm Bolter is higher, which shouldn't be surprising, that is pretty uniform across our index.  But scoring wounds with the Combi-Plasma are something like 70% more likely.

 

There's so many more things that'll skew the math (toughness being one of the biggest), but I tried to look at something favoring the most likely target, not a preferred target or what-have-you.

 

And that's if my quick math is even accurate.  Which it probably isn't!  But it makes it look like Storm Bolters are still the weapon dealing the most efficient purging!

 

Edit: I will learn how to use the spoiler tags to clean this up, in the future :)

Edited July 6, 2017 by Purifying Tempest

[taikishi]

 

I'm really interested in how it looks with the Combi-Plasma vs Storm Bolter, like on a per-point comparison.

 

 

Combi-plasma vs SB:

 

Wounds per shot vs MEQ

* Combi-Plasma, both barrels: 0.500 -- 0.130 with bolter barrel, 0.370 with plasma barrel

Formula: Wounds per shot = shots * hit chance * wound chance * failed save chance

Bolter: WPS = 1 * (2/3+1/6*2/3) * 1/2 * 1/3 = 1 * (2/3+1/9) * 1/2 * 1/3 = 7/9 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 7/18 * 1/3 = 7/54 = 0.130

Plasma: WPS = 1 * (2/3+1/6*2/3) * 2/3 * 5/6 = 7/9 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 14/27 * 5/6 = 60/162 = 10/27 = 0.370

 

 

* Storm bolter: 0.162

1 * (5/6+1/6*5/6) * 1/2 * 1/3 = 35/36 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 35/36 * 1/3 = 35/216 = .162

 

 

Wounds per turn::

* Combi-plasma: no change outside RF range, 1.000 inside RF range

* Storm bolter: 0.324, 0.648 inside RF range

 

 

Probability of inflicting at least one unsaved wound:

Outside RF range

* Combi-plasma: 45.2%

1 - (47/54) * (102/162) = 1 - .870 * 0.630 = 0.452)

* Storm Bolter: 30%

1 - (181/216)^2 = 0.300

 

Inside RF range

* Combi-plasma: 70.0%

1 - (47/54)^2 * (102/162)^2 = 0.700)

* Storm Bolter: 50.7%

1 - (181/216)^4 = 0.507

 

Edit: Doesn't say it later, but all of that is against MEQ.

Edited July 6, 2017 by taikishi

[Daimhin]

Don't know if I missed it in the above, but remember, if you roll a 2 to hit on your overcharged plasma your Canoness is dead! 

 

Roll 2, can't re-roll (because it's not a 1), then subtract 1, giving a Hit Roll of 1 and therefore a dead Canoness.

[Gen.Steiner]

But why are you subtracting one to hit? You'd only do that if you were firing both barrels of your combi-weapon; and if you're overcharging your plasma gun... why would you do that?

[A.T.]

and if you're overcharging your plasma gun... why would you do that?

 

For those awkward moments when you've forgotten what edition you are playing and want two extra faith points?  :p

[Daimhin]

But why are you subtracting one to hit? You'd only do that if you were firing both barrels of your combi-weapon; and if you're overcharging your plasma gun... why would you do that?

 

I agree entirely - but it's something people might have missed that could have a significant impact in a game.

[Purifying Tempest]

Because it is still strength 7 with -3 AP without overcharging, at a 24" range?

 

It can be fired all game long at that profile (rapid fire, to boot), safely.

 

So for a bulk of the time, it would seem sensible to fire the boltgun + combo-plasma with both shots (2 bolt rounds + plasma shot every turn between 13 and 24 inches).

 

Overcharging the weapon is something one would do in a specific scenario, and then likely it would be fired on its own to not risk blowing up the canoness.  But, specific scenarios aside, as a general, the weapon will perform as above stated.

 

The only model that may go around flinging overcharged plasma shots like candy would be the poor Superior unlucky enough to pick one up from the armory.

 

Tactics, folks, tactics :D

[Gen.Steiner]

Absolutely; if it comes to the time when you need an overcharged shot, the bolt shell is probably not going to do much harm anyway! So losing the bolt shot in favour of making it easier to keep your Canoness alive is an easy decision to make.