Summoning With Cypher

[Closet Skeleton]

Currently this means that if you want an Daemon Army Faction units without Faction Keyword Daemon cannot be part of this unless they have it even if the Datasheet contains Keyword Daemon.

 

There's no such thing as army faction, units have keywords, armies do not. Some rules only work if detachments only contain units with a certain keyword and armies have to make sure that all contained units all share at least one keyword but neither the detachment nor the army has a keyword.

 

This is different to Age of Sigmar where armies can choose allegiance abilities.

 

 

Index Xenos 2 page 112

If your army is Battle-forged, a unit can only make use of this ability if every unit in its Detatchment has the Genestealer Cults keyword.

 

This ability which is tied to only having pure faction detachments is clearly a unit ability, the detatchment has no status that affects anything, only the unit trying to use the rule and the other units in its detatchment matter.

 

One last question, partially for the sake of arguement and partially for completeness, what if all non-Chaos Imperium units in the army were dead? In otherwords, what if the only units still active as a part of the army were Cypher and maybe some Fallen? Everything currently in the army would then share the Chaos keyword.

 

Cypher and Fallen are always both Imperium and Chaos at all times, so an army consisting of just Fallen after all the Imperium models are dead is indistinguishable from a chaos army because as above, armies (and not even detachments) do not have keywords, only units do.

 

Similarly, if all the Genestealer Cult units die in a mixed Cult/Militarum army using the Brood Brothers rule then that army is indistinguishable from a Imperium Astra Militarum force. Death to the False Emperor will trigger against Brood Brothers just as it triggers against Cypher.

 

The Army Faction does not change once it is chosen. Even if you have 0 models left you still have the same chosen Army Faction. 

 

 

No, because army faction does not exist. You have to choose one keyword for all your units to share but that's not actually a thing that interacts with any rules, once you choose the keyword and make sure every unit shares it then that keyword is irrelevant and nothing interacts with it. Army Faction is a header on page 214 but isn't mentioned in the paragraph underneath it and is not a concept in the rules.

 

The question of whether or not units having to share the same keyword no matter when they're added to the army is important but it has nothing to do with the army, only the units because they're the ones that have keywords.

 

 

 

First I'm not freaking out about Death Guard. I just think that it is a pertinent example of how faction keywords work because they have a codex incoming. Any chaos faction more specific than Chaos will also illustrate it. But I'll stick with DG for now to explain.

 

Okay so you get your new DG codex and it has some special booger pistol relic. To take it you must have a faction keyword Death Guard army. Okay so you just take some Plague Marines, some Pox Walkers, a bell ringer, and a Chaos Lord armed with the booger pistol. Awesome! You also want to summon some daemons though so you set aside some points for some Plague Bearers. According to your interpretation he cannot summon anything without breaking his pure Death Guard faction keyword army. But who cares, they both have Chaos and Nurgle keywords, right? No. Death Guard is not Nurgle is not Chaos. You took the booger pistol. The booger pistol is not a relic of a keyword Nurgle army. You are not running a Nurgle army. You have now made your list illegal. According to you.

 

That's only relevant if the Deathguard book says all units have to be Deathguard to unlock anything. Its more likely that even if such a rule exists it will be on a detachment basis so having a deathguard detachment and a separate one for your daemons (or even khorne marines or whatever) will be legal.

 

Summoned units aren't in detachments so they won't care. They're still in the army but are otherwise loose, which technically violates the battleforged rules but that's clearly not RAI so should be overridden by the other rules that says battleforged armies can summon.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Commissar K.]

There is such a thing as Army Faction. Page Matched Play: Army Faction.

 

Daemons and Deathguard:

Daemons do not have Faction Keyword Death Guard so they cant be part of Army Faction Death Guard. Chaos is an option. Nurgle is an option. Keyword <Legion> is exclusive to Heretic Astartes.

 

Nothing is loosey goosey. Its understanding keywords. The simple yes or no principle.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Doom Herald]

Doesnt say that. What is stated is that you must reserve points. Adding units to an army at any stage still has to follow the Army Faction rule. As its part of the rules for Matched play and thus also Battle Forged armies.

 

I cannot find where GW tells you to ignore Faction Keywords at any point in the game. What I can find is that its confirmed that Faction Keywords work as regular Keywords aswell but not the other way around.

Kol posted the link, i showed a direct quote about faction keywords.

 

Yes, it does say that you have an army faction, but it is very vague about what impact that has.

[Commissar K.]

Yes, it does say that you have an army faction, but it is very vague about what impact that has.

How? Pick one Faction Keyword that must be the same throughout the army.

 

Pick Death Guard, whole army needs that Keyword.

Pick Nurgle, whole army needs that Keyword.

Pick Chaos, whole army needs that Keyword.

Pick Imperium, whole army needs that Keyword.

 

Its really simple actually. The fact that there is currently no bonus to picking Nurgle or Death Guard does not mean its an invalid option.

 

Currently picking Khorne or Tzeentch in AoS for that Keyword grands you an additional bonus. Blood Tithe and Destiny Dice to be precise. Picking Nurgle or Slaanesh currently in AoS does not gain an additional bonus.

 

If you want Cypher to be there for your Imperium army you choose Imperium as your faction keyword. A keyword Chaos Daemons do not have.

 

If you want to go solely Death Guard, you pick it as your faction keyword. If you wanted Daemons to be part of it, pick Nurgle or Chaos. As from that moment on there is no limitation for mono Death Guard...

[Paradigm]

You don't pick the summoned daemons at army creation. You merely set aside points for additional reinforcements. Those points do not contain keywords. Adding daemons via summoning is not a part of army creation. You can summon any stripe of daemon you choose unless you are otherwise restricted. They covered this in an QandA weeks ago, they become a part of the army after they enter play, and so faction keywords don't apply.

 

Furthermore Keywords do not work in 40k like they do in other game systems. Keywords in brackets are like sockets that get a something slotted into them. The replace term does not mean all identical keywords are unified, nor does it mean the opposite, or that keywords aren't somehow linked. An astartes chapter can be named the same as a chaos legion, but that doesn't mean they share a keyword.

[Closet Skeleton]

There is such a thing as Army Faction. Page Matched Play: Army Faction.

 

 

It doesn't say that at all. The term army faction is a paragraph header, not a rule. On that same page there are 4 paragraph headers, two of them then go on to define game terms that are the same as the paragraph header (REINFORCEMENT POINTS and ARMY ROSTER) while the other two (POINTS LIMIT and our ARMY FACTION) do not. If you actually read the text under that header;

 

 

 

All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS), even though they may be in different Detachments.

8th edition 40k rulebook page 214

 

 

It does not say "you must select an army faction, once you have done so you can only include units with that faction", it only cares about units. Even if you want to use Army Faction as concept for convenience sake, that paragraph defines what it means and it doesn't define it as a thing you choose that is then in anyway a set attribute from then on, just a relationship between units.

 

Compared to Age of Sigmar

 

 

Every unit and warscroll battalion in Warhammer Age of Sigmar is part of one of the Grand Alliances - either ORDER, CHAOS, DEATH or DESTRUCTION. Many units and warscroll battalions also have more specific allegiances, for example, STORMCAST ETERNALS or SYLVANETH.

 

When your army qualifies for more than one allegiance - e.g. all of the units are ORDER and STORMCAST ETERNAL - you must choose which allegiance your army will use before each game.

 

General's Handbook page 156

8th edition 40k might use an Age of Sigmar inspired keyword system but its rules are written differently. Allegiance is not a 40k rule and no equivalent concept that says you choose one faction keyword to mean anything over any other currently exists. All that exists are abilities that care about what other models are in the same detachment.

 

 

The idea of armies with a faction does turn up occasionally in the Index books (such as in the Genestealer Cult rules) but every time it explains that all it means is that an army entirely contains specific units, its not a general game term that has a set definition.

 

 

Currently picking Khorne or Tzeentch in AoS for that Keyword grands you an additional bonus. Blood Tithe and Destiny Dice to be precise. Picking Nurgle or Slaanesh currently in AoS does not gain an additional bonus.

 

If you want to go solely Death Guard, you pick it as your faction keyword. If you wanted Daemons to be part of it, pick Nurgle or Chaos. As from that moment on there is no limitation for mono Death Guard...

 

 

In AoS you have allegiances, which are unlike anything in the 8th edition 40k rules. The General's handbook has specific rules that say you can choose an allegiance and that it can be either a grand alliance one or a subfaction one. The subfaction system isn't even the same as the keyword system since Tomb Kings is a legal allegiance that unlocks some unit role changes but not a keyword.

 

Even if you have only Death Guard units, you're not only Death Guard army because all Death Guard units are also chaos and heretic astartes so those are still legal. A pure Death Guard Army is still just as much a Heretic Astartes army and a Chaos army because all its units share those keywords. There's nothing in the rules that says you can choose to limit your army choices like AoS allegiance, the only rule is that all units have to share at least one faction keyword.

 

For convenience sake you have to select a keyword for all your units to share but that doesn't make it a set thing since all the rules care about is the units and how they interact with each other.

 

The actually important thing is that since summoned units are added to the army (but not any detachment) they would still follow the limitation that units in an army have to share a faction. But unlike in the AoS General's Handbook there's no rule that says you can ignore the CHAOS faction keyword on your Deathguard units so you'll always be able to add summoned CHAOS daemons (and any UNALIGNED Daemons if they ever existed) even if your army is pure Deathguard.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Commissar K.]

You don't pick the summoned daemons at army creation. You merely set aside points for additional reinforcements. Those points do not contain keywords. Adding daemons via summoning is not a part of army creation. You can summon any stripe of daemon you choose unless you are otherwise restricted. 

You actually do pick the summoned Daemons the moment you make use of the Reinforcement points. You set aside those points and the moment you continue the creation of the army happens in the game. Adding Daemons through Reinforcements is adding units to your army. You cannot summon any Daemons unless you have the specific Keywords to do so. The relevant part here is:

 

 

 

 

 

 The term army faction is a paragraph header, not a rule. 

 

Completely incorrect.

 

 

- Using a Battle-forged army set up is a rule.

- Choosing an Army Faction is a rule. <- All of the units in a matched play army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. Daemons do not have Faction Keyword Imperium. As such they cannot be added in an otherwise Imperium army. 

- Determining a points limit is a rule.

- Using Reinforcement Points to add units to your matched play army (during a game) is a rule.

- Recording the detailes of your matched play army on an Army Roster is a rule.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Doom Herald]

You don't pick the summoned daemons at army creation. You merely set aside points for additional reinforcements. Those points do not contain keywords. Adding daemons via summoning is not a part of army creation. You can summon any stripe of daemon you choose unless you are otherwise restricted. They covered this in an QandA weeks ago, they become a part of the army after they enter play, and so faction keywords don't apply.

 

Furthermore Keywords do not work in 40k like they do in other game systems. Keywords in brackets are like sockets that get a something slotted into them. The replace term does not mean all identical keywords are unified, nor does it mean the opposite, or that keywords aren't somehow linked. An astartes chapter can be named the same as a chaos legion, but that doesn't mean they share a keyword.

Do you have a link to that Q&A? It would be most helpful.

 

Also, this question was asked on the 40k FB page and they said they were bumping it up to the rules guys, so hopefully we can get a definite answer.

[Paradigm]

I couldn't find it, though I think it was on the community website. It wasn't a csm or daemons specific qna so I'm not sure which it was a part of. However I'm pretty sure it was a video.

 

Commissar K, I'm not sure if you realize what you posted actually confirms what others are saying.

 

Based on your post: you can summon anything so long as all models (including those you choose to add during play) share a single faction keyword, since Death Guard models all also have the chaos keyword, and share it with all daemons, unless otherwise restricted, they can summon anything that has any one of their several faction keywords.

 

Faction Keyword isn't the same as faction. It's an inclusive system, not exclusive. They are hold all faction keywords, and do not cease to be "Death Guard" with the inclusion of units that do not share that faction.

 

The QnA went further saying it didn't matter at all, but they were talking about reinforcements in general and summoning was a small part of the discussion. I doubt they considered this particular context. Based on rules quoted, I don't believe cypher can summon when he is in an imperial army. Due to the line requiring all units to have a common faction keyword. Now, this doesn't mean he cannot attempt it, just that they can't be placed, so it is a moot point.

[Doom Herald]

So, if what youre saying does turn out to be the case, could cypher summon in a scenario where all the non-chaos imperium units died? Cypher as the last man standing would mean everything left in your army has the chaos keyword.

[sanityimpaired]

So, if what youre saying does turn out to be the case, could cypher summon in a scenario where all the non-chaos imperium units died? Cypher as the last man standing would mean everything left in your army has the chaos keyword.

That's one of the reasons we need this clarified.  The RAW are wonderfully well written in terms of picking them up and getting a basic understanding, but there's a lot of ambiguity in how they can be interpreted.

 

There's a lot of arguments going on right now, including this one, which boils down to how the rules are interpreted.  Both sides have a valid point here, because the rules don't properly define terms and how they apply.

 

My favourite example of this to date is somebody pointing out that units which reach 0 wounds are "slain or destroyed," without any explanation of how to determine which, but battleshock only counts slain models so destroyed ones don't apply.  It's very obviously not RAI, but there's a perfectly valid RAW interpretation that battleshock never happens at all, especially with inorganic armies like 'crons since the word slain requires the subject to have been alive and thus organic.

[Paradigm]

I think the ruleset is actually pretty tight. The problems arise from the long history of poorly worded loose rules. People expect any minor disparity to matter, when in this edition it doesn't seem to matter at all.

 

Don't get me wrong though, there are certainly a few very interesting conundrums in there.

[Paradigm]

Still can't edit...

 

As far as if Cypher can summon in a situation where his allies are removed from play, I don't believe so. Models that have been removed from play are still part of the army for the duration of the game.

[sanityimpaired]

I think the ruleset is actually pretty tight. The problems arise from the long history of poorly worded loose rules. People expect any minor disparity to matter, when in this edition it doesn't seem to matter at all.

 

Don't get me wrong though, there are certainly a few very interesting conundrums in there.

The ruleset is exceptionally good, and they made the right choice by streamlining it significantly.

 

It's still got some messed ups, but if GW keeps listening to the community the way they have been recently, they'll get resolved.  I suspect the game is going to even better in six months or so.

[Commissar K.]

@Fortnight in regards to Keyword Death Guard, my point was and remains that it isnt sufficient to summon Daemons. Chaos is required and Character is too.

 

This relates to the question at hand because where we agree is that an Imperium army usually does not have the other sufficient Keywords and Daemons do not have Keyword Imperium.

 

Technically/maby a lone Cypher could summon Daemons but then reality kicks in and often shows that if he is the sole summoner hes actually the largest walking target in the army. As his destruction would prefent all Daemons from entering play.

 

Personally if someone would play an army like that I wouldnt be bothered too much as all a opponent would have to do is leave one additional Imperium model alive to prefent Cypher from summoning. As indeed creating an army in game follows the same principles outside of a game. Being:

- Points are set aside

- Army must contain one of the same faction keywords throughout

- Reinforcement still must have a viable way to enter the army in game e.g. summoning Daemons

 

For me personally this rule isnt vague. There are just some who somehow thought these where not rules and adding units to your army in game would not follow the same rules as adding units outside of a game.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Paradigm]

Ah, I think I missed the point, and I was interpreting the rules through that QnA, but after re-reading the rules, I think I took it out of context a bit.

 

Any chaos character can summon daemons, however they can only be added to your army if all models in the army have the chaos keyword. So, it seems we are in agreement.

In the QnA they say you can summon whatever you want, however it was a chaos space marine sorcerer, so he can indeed summon any daemons he wants. My mistake was assuming that you can always summon whatever you want whenever you want.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Fortnight

[Doom Herald]

New FAQ says Cypher can't summon at all. Problem solved.

[Raven1]

New FAQ says Cypher can't summon at all. Problem solved.

Correct I came here to post that