Help with my Crusade.

[Gendo]

Hi Brothers,

 

Thus far 8th edition hasn't been kind to my Crusade, in 7th as a new player I've won half the games only struggling against strong shooters but now I badly lost every single game against three different armies

The dice gods are also against me and can't even get a reroll to work.

 

I'm spending countless hours remaking lists instead of painting or building and I'm non the wiser.

 

I have limited units to make a 2k list and would like your collective help with creating an all comers list so I can have some peace of mind at least until the new Codex comes out.

 

I'll list everything I have, you'll see that I like it fluffy and Combat oriented, have a limited budget at the moment but i take suggestions on 1 unit or vehicle to add that will make a difference.

 

HQs: Helbrecht, Grimaldus, EC, Chaplain, Techmarine, Captain in Terminator Armour

 

Heavy: LRC, Predator (using the hull as Rhino sometimes), TFC

 

Elites: 1 squad Assault Terminators with TH/Claws,

           1 squad of Vanguard Vets with TH/Claws (meant to use them as Company vets to take wounds for the EC but then glued the jump packs...)

           1 Apothecary, 1 Standard bearer, Cenobytes, Company Champion

           1 Venerable Dreadnought

 

Trans: 2 Drop Pod, 1 Razorback

 

Crusaders, Heavy weapons: Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannon,

                                              2 Power Axe, 1 Power Sword, 1 Power Fist

Crusaders, Special weapons: 3 Plasma Guns, Flamer, Grav-gun, Melta-gun

Crusaders: 14 Chainswords, 11 Boltguns

Crusaders, Sword Brothers: 1 Combi-Grav, 2 Power Axe, 1 Power Sword, 1 Power Fist

Neophytes: 19 (lost one in Cadia) sorted Chainswords and Boltguns

 

I know I'm asking a lot but hopefully will make for an interesting thread debating on what works and why in this edition!

 

Thanks!

Edited July 6, 2017 by Gendo

[HighMarshalAlex]

Perhaps others will disagree with me, but I think your main problem might be lack of transports. You have a lot of CC units and characters, but only a couple ways of getting them there. Footslogging marines this edition just doesn't work in 8th, at least, it hasn't for me. Drop pods are overpriced for what they do imo. Assault after disembarking in nice, but 9" is too much. Razorbacks are always good, but with their limited transport capacity, is better suited for carrying around a fire support squad. There is the LRC, but I'll come back to that in a second. So that leaves you with the Rhino, which is actually a predator. With the things you have, I don't think you should ever run it as a rhino, which brings me to my second point. You need that predator. Reason being is, when I look at your list of models, and think of things that are immediate threats that I NEED to deal with as an opponent, there's only two things that jump out at me: the predator, to an extent, and the Land Raider that's going to start barreling down on me with some Termies and the EC or Helbrecht or any other nasty combination. That's pretty scary, but if I focus down the LRC, and force those units to hoof it, it becomes less scary. The predator takes heat off of it a little bit, but not by much. I think you need a second dedicated "shiny" unit. Preferably, another LRC or even a Stormraven. That would fix both your transport problem, and take the heat off of your other LRC. I always run them in pairs and it works out great. It's a lot of points, but I think it's more effective to take two than one. I know you said you were on a limited budget, but I would definitely pick one up whenever you can. In the mean time, some rhinos would work wonders, but I could be wrong. What have your games been like? What units do you usually use? Edited July 6, 2017 by HighMarshalAlex

[Marshal_Roujakis]

You can pop off the Razorbacks turret and use it as a Rhino... that's what I've always done, and nobody complains... :p

 

But agree on lack of transports... especially for a 10-9 man squad that you want to go around and quickly capture objectives or to just get in your opponents face...

 

If you can get it, some bikes might be nice as well to use as screens if your opponent is more Assault oriented that you are... otherwise the Vanguard can do their job, but will be a lot squishier and pricier...

[Gendo]

Makes sense

 

Perhaps others will disagree with me, but I think your main problem might be lack of transports. You have a lot of CC units and characters, but only a couple ways of getting them there. Footslogging marines this edition just doesn't work in 8th, at least, it hasn't for me. Drop pods are overpriced for what they do imo. Assault after disembarking in nice, but 9" is too much. Razorbacks are always good, but with their limited transport capacity, is better suited for carrying around a fire support squad. There is the LRC, but I'll come back to that in a second. So that leaves you with the Rhino, which is actually a predator. With the things you have, I don't think you should ever run it as a rhino, which brings me to my second point. You need that predator. Reason being is, when I look at your list of models, and think of things that are immediate threats that I NEED to deal with as an opponent, there's only two things that jump out at me: the predator, to an extent, and the Land Raider that's going to start barreling down on me with some Termies and the EC or Helbrecht or any other nasty combination. That's pretty scary, but if I focus down the LRC, and focus those units to hoof it, it becomes less scary. The predator takes heat off of it a little bit, but not by much. I think you need a second dedicated "shiny" unit. Preferably, another LRC or even a Stormraven. That would fix both your transport problem, and take the heat off of your other LRC. I always run them in pairs and it works out great. It's a lot of points, but I think it's more effective to take two than one. I know you said you were on a limited budget, but I would definitely pick one up whenever you can. In the mean time, some rhinos would work wonders, but I could be wrong. What have your games been like? What units do you usually use?

 

Makes sense, my dislike for the Predator is that so far I average 1 shot each turn for 1-2 damage.

 

And as I recently expanded my Crusaders with more CC I ideally want to field 3x 15-16 man squads with some shooting in them to thin the opponent before the charge, which makes the Rhino too small and to have them all in LRC would be prohibitive.

 

Let's say I have 15 man in the LRC and 2x 10 man in Rhinos, all mostly CC, where do I put the small heavy shooting squads? A plasma squad out of a Deathwind Pod will take them in rapid fire range and surely a threat but they'll last a turn, Pod will keep shooting for a bit and help funnel the enemy or offer cover.

 

Briefly, my last list aimed at Nids (ended up being AdMech sob...) was:

 

-3x 16 man Crusader sq with HB, Flamers and Power Axe or Sword, and 5 Neophytes with Bolguns.

The idea behind it was that Nids would want to get closer as well so HB with rerolls from Helbrecht should be fine, Flamer if they charge first, Neophytes to put on more fire before the charge and first casualties to go, leaving the CC for when needed.

-LRC in the middle with Helbrecht and Grimaldus embarked, Cenobytes covering all three units and Apothecary somewhere in there.

-2 AC Razorbacks with a Melta unit and a Grav unit

-Vanguard vets jumping into cover 9" away

 

And with 3 Twin AC in total (chosen to make up for punchier shooting), 3 Heavy bolters should have been enough dakka.

 

The deployment zone was the one each deploys in opposite corners and he setup 36" away from me and he having a LOT of strong distance shooting meant my vehicles were reduced to 3" movement after first turn and when i got closer with the crusaders i got shot with everything and went quickly.

 

The buff bubbles worked well in that kind of formation and with my HB took on his snipers to preserve my HQs, Gravs and Melta did well the turn they were in range.

 

Will probably try the same vs Nyds on Sunday and see how it works as intended originally.

 

Also, the game was Eternal War that's why all the mid range shooting, didn't need to sit on objectives, literally shoot and charge army.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Gendo

[Gendo]

You can pop off the Razorbacks turret and use it as a Rhino... that's what I've always done, and nobody complains...

 

But agree on lack of transports... especially for a 10-9 man squad that you want to go around and quickly capture objectives or to just get in your opponents face...

 

If you can get it, some bikes might be nice as well to use as screens if your opponent is more Assault oriented that you are... otherwise the Vanguard can do their job, but will be a lot squishier and pricier...

 

Yeah the hulls are pretty much used as either Rhino or Razorbacks, let's say I'm on the way to get a unit, which one and what do i give away list wise.

 

I can get a LRC or a Razorback (need the weapon models), a Razorback plus a Bike Squad, as they all equate to the same amount.

[Gerhard]

When looking at your models, and then at how I've played my games, the difference is transport capacity, flyers and troopsize. That is of course assuming my "default" list and not talking about fighting specific armies such as Ork hordes.

 

I am not particularly fond of big groups unless I can ensure that I don't fail morale tests. Up until now I've played mostly Power Level games and as such do not have to worry much about points. The lists I've been succesful with have contained multiple small Crusader Squads (5 without neos) which allowed me to field a lot of power weapons and get them around the map quickly either by combining two in a Rhino or using a Razor per squad I wanted to cross the battlefield with.

 

The LRC is in there in larger PL games and carries either a combination of Crusader Squads & HQ or Assault Termies.

 

If possible I try to squeeze in some form of flyer support (if the opponent would allow it), as so far I've been really satisfied with how they perform.

 

Thus... when I analyze your models, I would say you could benefit from expansion of your army, focussing on the weaknesses. Maybe other people will have ideas of how your army could work but I have too little experience to give further advise other than telling you what I've been succesful with.

[Gendo]

When looking at your models, and then at how I've played my games, the difference is transport capacity, flyers and troopsize. That is of course assuming my "default" list and not talking about fighting specific armies such as Ork hordes.

 

I am not particularly fond of big groups unless I can ensure that I don't fail morale tests. Up until now I've played mostly Power Level games and as such do not have to worry much about points. The lists I've been succesful with have contained multiple small Crusader Squads (5 without neos) which allowed me to field a lot of power weapons and get them around the map quickly either by combining two in a Rhino or using a Razor per squad I wanted to cross the battlefield with.

 

The LRC is in there in larger PL games and carries either a combination of Crusader Squads & HQ or Assault Termies.

 

If possible I try to squeeze in some form of flyer support (if the opponent would allow it), as so far I've been really satisfied with how they perform.

 

Thus... when I analyze your models, I would say you could benefit from expansion of your army, focussing on the weaknesses. Maybe other people will have ideas of how your army could work but I have too little experience to give further advise other than telling you what I've been succesful with.

 

So far I didn't fail a single morale test because of Grimaldus or the amazing 12" bubble from the Cenobytes or CP unless the whole squad dies at once by AdMech.

 

Thought about multiple smaller squads in transport but that would make it difficult to give all of them buffs from HQs, with larger units you'll have a tail end which can converge towards the HQ, until you want to move up with it and still will benefit more models. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Gendo

[HighMarshalAlex]

I would agree with Brother Gerhard that smaller crusader squads, however wrong it may feel, is what I've had success with. That would also solve your problem of wondering where to put your fire support squads, Brother Gendo. Currently I run 2 LRCs, each with 2x 5 man Crusader squads with a TH and power sword. Each LRC also has a 5 man company veteran squad with combi-plasma sand a character. It's been working out great for me!

 

But agree on lack of transports... especially for a 10-9 man squad that you want to go around and quickly capture objectives or to just get in your opponents face...

Forgive my ignorance, brother, but "capture objectives"? I am not familiar with the concept ;) Edited July 6, 2017 by HighMarshalAlex

[Gendo]

Made this with having one more Rhino hull:

 

-LRC with Helbrecht and EC, 14 man squad with 2 Swords, 1 Flamer, 3 Shooty Neophytes (even two squads but don't have models for P Weapons)

-Rhino with Chaplain, 9 man CCsquad with 2 Axes, 1 Flamer

-Rhino with Apothecary, as above

-Drop Pod with 5 man squad with Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma and 5 man squad with Grav Cannon, Melta-Gun and Combi-Melta (To drop on their flank, still want them to move towards me).

-Las Predator

-Vanguard Vets (considered same loadout on Termis but are 300pts) 

Cenobytes on tow somewhere

 

Gaining the LasPredator, have everything in a box.

 

Losing about 15 CC Crusaders, 2 Twin AC and Chaplain instead of Grimaldus, some area buffs, and 3 Hunter Killer Missiles which always missed anyways.

[Gendo]

I would agree with Brother Gerhard that smaller crusader squads, however wrong it may feel, is what I've had success with. That would also solve your problem of wondering where to put your fire support squads, Brother Gendo. Currently I run 2 LRCs, each with 2x 5 man Crusader squads with a TH and power sword. Each LRC also has a 5 man company veteran squad with combi-plasma sand a character. It's been working out great for me!

 

But agree on lack of transports... especially for a 10-9 man squad that you want to go around and quickly capture objectives or to just get in your opponents face...

Forgive my ignorance, brother, but "capture objectives"? I am not familiar with the concept

 

I like that, what specific loadout on the Vets (could use termis and vanguard "as" to try out) and what the rest of the list looks like?

 

Also agree on objectives, always place mine in their half ;)

[Gerhard]

My terminators in groups of five tend to be equipped with 3 TH/SS and two Dual LC. Vanguards I have a lot of options and field them depending on enemies and what I intend to do with them. Generally it's a "I want something dead on turn one" and equipped with TH/SS/Lightning Claws or its a squad of 10 with a Chaplain for general assault and equipped with a more regular loadout of Chainswords & Plasma Pistols. Edited July 6, 2017 by Gerhard

[Gendo]

 

Latest addition, disappointed so far, meant to be Company Vets, then glued Pack, then glued wrong load out, Classic

[HighMarshalAlex]

 

 

I would agree with Brother Gerhard that smaller crusader squads, however wrong it may feel, is what I've had success with. That would also solve your problem of wondering where to put your fire support squads, Brother Gendo. Currently I run 2 LRCs, each with 2x 5 man Crusader squads with a TH and power sword. Each LRC also has a 5 man company veteran squad with combi-plasma sand a character. It's been working out great for me!

 

But agree on lack of transports... especially for a 10-9 man squad that you want to go around and quickly capture objectives or to just get in your opponents face...

Forgive my ignorance, brother, but "capture objectives"? I am not familiar with the concept

I like that, what specific loadout on the Vets (could use termis and vanguard "as" to try out) and what the rest of the list looks like?

 

Also agree on objectives, always place mine in their half ;)

My opponent always looks at me funny when I pick the side with no objectives.

 

My company vets I run all have combi-plasma sand chainswords, with the sergeant having a TH. They are pretty devastating, but pretty fragile, so I usually only pop them out to deal with really nasty stuff.

 

The rest of my list varies, but usually I run Marshal LeVeque (counts as Helbrecht) as my warlord. His rerolls on shooting as well as Melee does wonders with the veterans and LRCs. He's no slouch in combat either.

 

I usually take 1-2 bike squads to run interference for the LRCs, and a squad or two of Devastators with LC or ML for some long range fire support. I only take 5 man Devastators with 1 or 2 heavies per squad so they almost never get shot at. Another option I like for long range support is the ven dread with LCs.

 

I really like the EC and Grimaldus too, but by far my favorite HQ choice is a captain on a bike with a TH and SS. He is absolutely horrifying. I run him up between the LRCs and then just point him at a vehicle/monster/character/anything and he kills it.

 

I haven't tried terminators yet, because I don't have any. But I'm confident in my sculpting skills enough now to make tabards for them, so that will change soon. A friend of mine always runs them and he's been liking them so far.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Terminators are great... when I don't feel like running special characters, I usually take my Cataphractii Marshal with Shooty Terminators... yes you read that right, Indomitus shooty Terminators...

 

The Marshal is slow but he can tank... he can tank a lot... I haven't had a game where he died and he's just walking around alone in the front lines... it's like Wonder Woman but a man... in a tank suit... with a Hammer and a combi-melta... no shields... and colored in gold... just like papa-Dorn... :D

 

I usually sit the objective on their side too, but my opponents here are smart enough about my tactics once they see that I've placed 1 on their side of the field and they usually put some in the middle to bait me into holding for 1-2 turns :p Some of them are Tau after all... they think everything is fish :D

 

Terminators are durable, but will be susceptible to overwhelming fire... mine have died most of my games, but it usually takes 1-2 turns of most of their shooting to get rid of them while my entire army close in using Land Raiders and Rhinos... the Terminators don't do enough damage in range, but if they get to charging distance, try to multi-charge if you have the numbers... they can survive overwatch and can squish some guys and lock them in melee so that your Crusaders can charge in without getting Overwatched... also a good alternative for a bike squad... wait 1-2 turns until your vehicles are close enough then Deep Strike, and charge...

[Drac0]

The Marshal is slow but he can tank... he can tank a lot... I haven't had a game where he died and he's just walking around alone in the front lines... it's like Wonder Woman but a man... in a tank suit... with a Hammer and a combi-melta... no shields... and colored in gold... just like papa-Dorn...

 

So... Is he Thor? xD

[Gendo]

Last game vs Necrons (didn't expect so many combat units) got another Razorback hull and run them both as Twin AC, got charged by some sort of millipede dropping in and never got to fire at full BS with them, the Plasma squad inside got into cover and did well the rest of the game, the Grav squad in the other Razorback got charged...

Vanguard Vets got charged first and dropped like flies.

My LRC and 2 large Crusader squads got stuck on the other side of the map with a huge and tall piece of terrain in the middle, by the end of the game only one squad made it into combat with the Chaplain and Cenobytes, doing good but too late.

LRC got shot into oblivion pretty quickly like my LasPredator, the only performing unit was the VenDread with 2 Autocannons who was as well on the other side of the map pretty much alone and shooting at a Flyer all game long.

 

Next game (vs Dark Eldar) i'm planning to go with 2 smaller units (4 P.swords in total) in the LRC with Helbrecht and Techmarine dropping the HQs turn 2 to regain wounds and reroll hits for the LRC, Rhino with Chaplain and CC Crusaders and another Rhino with 3x Company Vets, the EC and Melta/Plasma squad. 

Again Vanguard Vets and LasPredator and see if they will do better, plus the 2 Autocannon VenDread, thought I fear they all get charged by some Eldar bikes and be useless.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

No wonder your tanks were dropping so much wounds... Necrons are tough against vehicles... and the millipede thing is a Forge World unit... pretty obscure rules regarding that one, and it might suit you better to fight Forge World with Forge World... a Fire Raptor should do the trick ;)

 

Against DEldar, they are going to be fast and nasty, try to always get the charge if you can, and remember that you can't use Helbrecht's bubble abilities if he's not dissembarked from the transport... so you'll need to pop him out once in a while....

[Gendo]

No wonder your tanks were dropping so much wounds... Necrons are tough against vehicles... and the millipede thing is a Forge World unit... pretty obscure rules regarding that one, and it might suit you better to fight Forge World with Forge World... a Fire Raptor should do the trick

 

Against DEldar, they are going to be fast and nasty, try to always get the charge if you can, and remember that you can't use Helbrecht's bubble abilities if he's not dissembarked from the transport... so you'll need to pop him out once in a while....

 

He had 3 of those bugs, think 11-12 wounds each plus some beetles on round bases, scary.

 

At least if the Eldar wants to charge my Rhinos I've got CC stuff out of it this time, I like the two Autocannon on the Dread but will probably get charged fast, maybe will get a Multi-Melta and Fist/Flamer and get stuck in instead 

[Gendo]

Little update on my ongoing struggles, keeping the discussion on what works and why ;)

 

Last played vs Dark Eldar, he had a huge FW vessel and plenty skimmers, some bikes and little "birds" with 4 wounds in CC.

 

I had:

2x 7 man CC squad with 4 Swords in the LRC (MM) with Helbrecht and Techmarine, Cenobytes on tow.

2x 5 man CC squad with 3 Axes in Rhino

1x 5 man Squad with MM and 2 Plasmas, Honour Guard with Axes and EC in Rhino

LasPredator, Ven Dreadnought with Autocannon and fist/flamer babysitting the Pred 

Vanguard Vets and Jump Pack Chaplain to either support them or the squads in the Rhino.

 

Recap:

Kept Helbrecht between the Crusaders and the LRC to gain reroll for both, did amazing as did the Techmarine strapped to the LRC always staying above 9 wounds.

The 2 smaller squads in Rhino failed the charge and got shot at a few times by skimmers falling back, Chaplain failed charge as well and got killed.

The other Rhino disembarked the shooty squad into cover in range of a large flyer and went forward ahead with Champ.

Predator did good in a round of shooting and got killed same round, Dreadnought did good an lasted most of the game, not degrading is nice.

Vanguard Vets failed the charge to the vessel but managed to last a couple of rounds of CC with the 2 sets of Claws killing a whole unit.

 

Thoughts:

The addition of the MM on LRC and Squad plus Melta on Helbrecht did very good and killed a large flyer plus dropped the huge vessel to 2 wounds pretty quickly aided by the LasPred, Thinking of putting suicide meltas in a Pod and deal with stuff right away and maybe take the heat off the Pred.

Helbrecht himself is amazing with a LRC in range and CC squads and the Techmarine will always be there from now on.

Jump Pack Chaplain, did that so I could fit 2 squads in a Rhino and even if he failed the charge would give the rerolls to units that did, in this case all failed but seems sound.

This time tried for a straight charge from dropping with the Vets, they failed and are expensive, they'll probably stay at home next time.

Rhinos are amazing, not such a target as the Razorback and with 2 Storm Bolters each in rapid fire range or not they support a lot, the opponent didn't even realise until turn 4 all the hurt they've been dishing out before being finally targeted.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Yeah, Rapid Fire 2 is going to hurt Eldar and most armies out there.... hence Terminators, but they cost heaps of points

 

I usually just use Assault Marines instead of Vanguard Veterans for my JP Chaplain... 3 Plasma Pistols and 1 Power Weapon fired in Overcharge can deal some damage even before I go charging in melee... if they fail the charge after deep striking, atleast the pistols did some damage... if I was fighting Eldar, I'd probably just use Flamers though

 

Also, if you failed the charge with the Vanguard, don't charge in with the Character if he can't tank melee, it makes him susceptible to Overwatch, and even if he gets in, the squad can fall back leaving the Chaplain the closest target for return fire...

 

Techamarines are great... even in 7th, they were an HQ choice w/c had heaps of firepower, but for some reason are always neglected...

Edited July 13, 2017 by Marshal_Roujakis

[Gendo]

Yeah, Rapid Fire 2 is going to hurt Eldar and most armies out there.... hence Terminators, but they cost heaps of points

 

I usually just use Assault Marines instead of Vanguard Veterans for my JP Chaplain... 3 Plasma Pistols and 1 Power Weapon fired in Overcharge can deal some damage even before I go charging in melee... if they fail the charge after deep striking, atleast the pistols did some damage... if I was fighting Eldar, I'd probably just use Flamers though

 

Also, if you failed the charge with the Vanguard, don't charge in with the Character if he can't tank melee, it makes him susceptible to Overwatch, and even if he gets in, the squad can fall back leaving the Chaplain the closest target for return fire...

 

Techamarines are great... even in 7th, they were an HQ choice w/c had heaps of firepower, but for some reason are always neglected...

 

Vanguard were by themselves against the vessel, Chaplin jumped in to support two units charging into open topped skimmers since they had a closer charge distance.

Still charged with Chaplin as he had nothing else to do after jumping and a skimmer had 2 wounds left, hopefully forcing a disembark by wrecking it and be locked into combat with him.

Why flamers? he didn't have many troops at all and nothing really wanted to charge into me.

Also he had some wicked HQ with a 2+ invuln save until he failed once, after I've won all the other CC he was locked alone with EC (warlord with +1A), Helbrecht, Honour Guard and 2 Power Axes, I charged all at once so they all hit first and he saved everything lol, mortal wounds on the EC on 6s seems reasonable. Until he failed one save and the EC took his head, still took two turns which was annoying.

 

Next game will drop the Vets and Honour Guard for a Melta Drop, 2 larger CC squads on each Rhino with Flamers, Meltas with Helbrecht for the rerolls. And a Conversion Beam on Techmarine.

Like the idea of multiple units in Rhinos but leaves no space for HQs which I need for CC, so larger ones with Chaplin and EC each, until I get a second LRC

Edited July 14, 2017 by Gendo

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Flamers because Eldar have T-shirts for Armor... but I guess with the lack of Infantry and more into vehicles, Flamers aren't so good...

 

Also, be cautious about killing vehicles in CC, they have a somewhat low chance to explode, but if they do, they can take out 3 Wounds for anything around 3"-6" making HQs die easily...

Yeah, those 2+ Invuln. Save will get annoying, usually concentrated shooting takes those down, but killing it w/ an Emperor's Champion is much more epic ;)

[Gendo]

Another game today vs Renegades and "something", my little "deathstar" of LRC with MM, Helbrecht, Techmarine with Conversion Beam and 2 CC squads with 4 Power Swords and Melta did great, the Meltas took town 2 tanks and LRC never below 12 wounds ending up on 14.

 

Ven Dread with 2 Twin Autocannons did great again mostly at BS 2+, and 1 wound left at the end of the game, Predator did poorly again and considering to run 2 Ven Dread with Twin Lascannon and Twin Autocannon each instead, BS 2+, no degrading and 2 targets.

 

CC squads did great in combat but once out of it got shredded by out of sight artillery.

 

Champion, still struggling to get him to fight an HQ and Honour Guard with him, will sadly drop him vs shooty enemies (since they'll have HQs well far away) and leave space in the Rhino for 2 squads.

 

Also Melta drop did good and didn't get charged for 2 turns, Deathwind Launcher rolling 1 attacks each time... 

 

Edit: Liking Meltas now and looking at a Bike Squad, 3 Meltas 14" Movement for 152 pts, a Melta Drop it's 236 pts. So next buy will be a Dreadnought and a bike squad

Edited July 16, 2017 by Gendo