Looking for some advice so I can help a friend

[chapter master 454]

Recently, one of my friends has begun the hobby of 40k and he has gone with the Tau. Prior to the edition shift he had picked up 2 riptides, 2 'start collecting' tau, a commander and a pathfinder squad.

 

Now the big draw for him is the battlesuits (which it always is as far as I know with tau XD) which means he would really really like to be able to use those riptides in an effective manner. Now this is hard because of the following which was found out in recent games:

 

1. Drones DO NOT hold up well against weapons that deal multi-damage. We had during his first game an entire set of 14 drones wiped out because of how the drone saviour protocols work (he was hit by a stormwolf firing 2 twin-multimeltas, 2 lascannons and twin helfrost. twice, there were two of these cheeseboats flying around) and even then the riptides took a few extra wounds on top of that. Quite underwhelming sadly, was hoping the drones would actually do something other than being extended statline for the riptides.

 

2. Their ballistic skill sucks. For a base 209 point body, he sure as heck does't bring the talent. What the heck happened? Markerlights can help but they themselves are underwhelming until you hit someone 5 times which requires pathfinders on stats 10 shots to do. So what? Got to run a full squad of pathfinders with marker drones per riptide now?

 

3. The non-invunerable save. 5+ is really really really bad as an invunerable save for units with a 2+ because of how common -3 is. Only useful vs. melta and even then it's likely to fail and result in on stats about 4 wounds to be lost.

 

4 and finally: Ion Accelerator blows for it's points cost. That's all, it blows. Looks like a leaf blower, now shoots like one.

 

Now this was against space wolfs who were running around in the prior mentioned cheeseboat which btw contained wulfen, arjac and a wolf lord. We found the accelerator was incredibly lackluster in it's performance even when nova-charged (even began to just fire it normally and got marginally better results...) along with the problem of drones not be as effective. He only got to fire his riptides repeatidly because of it being a dual game (1000 points each player) and I used my mass of marines to try and speed bump HALF of the space wolf forces (the wulfen literally bulldozed half my army by themselves).

 

So may not of been the best game for Tau but to be honest, the writings on the wall for those riptides from such poor performance. The main issue being the random shots from nova-charge making it extremely dicey (no pun intended), We even command re-rolled one of the dice for it and only got 4 shots from one and the other only got 2.

 

Sorry for being a bit pessimistic but I do seek help. Thankfully the riptides do not have their main guns affixed (only their smart missiles are and those did work, advanced targeting systems make them so good) so we will be testing them with their Heavy Burst cannons next time. Main reason being that if they are going to have bad aim, may as well give them a gun that doesn't care too much for aiming.

 

With what he has, any advice I could take to try and guide him along and make use of those riptides to better effect. 

[Vector Strike]

1. How can drones not live up to multi-wound weapons?

This is how the process of Saviour Protocols used to be pre-FAQ:

a. Enemy hits

b. Enemy wounds

c. You allocate to either your unit or the drone unit nearby

d. Drone makes saves against the wounds

c. dDone takes damage of unsaved wounds. If said damage isn't mortal wound, excess damage are lost, not passed to the original target unit.

 

The new FAQ transforms the wound allocated to the drone into mortal wounds, so no save are made - you just apply one damage to the drone.

 

2. The new markerlight table isn't as good as it was. Yeah, one squad just for them seems intesresting, lol

 

3. Well, use the Nova for 3++ while the big guns are still alive. Ethereal aura and Stimulant Injector will help it vs wounds

 

4. HBC is just a better deal now (and yet I'd use a Fire Support Hammerhead from IA Index Xenos or a Tiger Shark Fighter-Bomber instead)

 

The Riptide came from being a harasser to a walking turret. But we already have Broadsides for that...

 

I'd advise your friend to convert his Riptides into a Y'vahra and a R'varna. Both are more expensive in points, but do much more work than the Riptide

[chapter master 454]

1. How can drones not live up to multi-wound weapons?

This is how the process of Saviour Protocols used to be pre-FAQ:

a. Enemy hits

b. Enemy wounds

c. You allocate to either your unit or the drone unit nearby

d. Drone makes saves against the wounds

c. dDone takes damage of unsaved wounds. If said damage isn't mortal wound, excess damage are lost, not passed to the original target unit.

 

The new FAQ transforms the wound allocated to the drone into mortal wounds, so no save are made - you just apply one damage to the drone.

 

2. The new markerlight table isn't as good as it was. Yeah, one squad just for them seems intesresting, lol

 

3. Well, use the Nova for 3++ while the big guns are still alive. Ethereal aura and Stimulant Injector will help it vs wounds

 

4. HBC is just a better deal now (and yet I'd use a Fire Support Hammerhead from IA Index Xenos or a Tiger Shark Fighter-Bomber instead)

 

The Riptide came from being a harasser to a walking turret. But we already have Broadsides for that...

 

I'd advise your friend to convert his Riptides into a Y'vahra and a R'varna. Both are more expensive in points, but do much more work than the Riptide

 

The converting sadly won't be happening. Like mentioned he just started wargaming for the first time, including building and such. I have had to help him learn and build those models so sadly as much as I love converting, not possible.

 

As for the drones...I have just re-read the rule and we were DUPED. To be fair there is some really bad wording by GW. Noted for next time...thank you for that

[Vector Strike]

 

1. How can drones not live up to multi-wound weapons?

This is how the process of Saviour Protocols used to be pre-FAQ:

a. Enemy hits

b. Enemy wounds

c. You allocate to either your unit or the drone unit nearby

d. Drone makes saves against the wounds

c. dDone takes damage of unsaved wounds. If said damage isn't mortal wound, excess damage are lost, not passed to the original target unit.

 

The new FAQ transforms the wound allocated to the drone into mortal wounds, so no save are made - you just apply one damage to the drone.

 

2. The new markerlight table isn't as good as it was. Yeah, one squad just for them seems intesresting, lol

 

3. Well, use the Nova for 3++ while the big guns are still alive. Ethereal aura and Stimulant Injector will help it vs wounds

 

4. HBC is just a better deal now (and yet I'd use a Fire Support Hammerhead from IA Index Xenos or a Tiger Shark Fighter-Bomber instead)

 

The Riptide came from being a harasser to a walking turret. But we already have Broadsides for that...

 

I'd advise your friend to convert his Riptides into a Y'vahra and a R'varna. Both are more expensive in points, but do much more work than the Riptide

 

The converting sadly won't be happening. Like mentioned he just started wargaming for the first time, including building and such. I have had to help him learn and build those models so sadly as much as I love converting, not possible.

 

As for the drones...I have just re-read the rule and we were DUPED. To be fair there is some really bad wording by GW. Noted for next time...thank you for that

 

How about letting him use those Riptides as proxies for both FW variants? If he likes its rules, he'll might buy them

I wouldn't field more than 1 Riptide whatsoever!

[depthcharge12]

1.) don't rely on Riptides. I think they got some just desserts from the past two editions, but they did get a bit heavy handed with it

 

2.) use the riptide to soak up charges and be a big distraction if you intend on using one. Failing that, the Y'vahra isactually really good this edition.

 

3.) SYNERGY SYNERGY SYNERGY. Tau lists this edition can't just throw units at lists and expect them to do well. Crisis suits are good for an alpha strike, and then after that, anything else is a plus. I'm running three wth 3 plasma rifles (super inexpensive comparatively and can really hurt expensive units).

 

I'm hearing good things from cyclic ion blasters with an advanced targeting system. Missile pods are great but expensive.

 

4.) with the synergy, you're going to need to use pathfinders this edition, like it or lump it. You can use drones but pathfinders get cover and have a better BS. I'm taking ten, but let your friend know how to use his commander's Kauyon ability. You use it as long as the models within 6" don't move and they get to reroll failed hits. Only hitting 5 MLs with ten guys? This turn, watch your squad get 5 hits on two separate squads (not super statistical, but can definitely happen). Or, tell your friend to take a cadre Fireblade to chain markerlights by firing his first at BS2+, then the pathfinder squads so they reroll 1's.

 

5.) take firewarriors. Lots of em. In an edition where you can hurt everything, these guys are the gods of infantry. S5 wounds at worst on a 5+ against 99% of the models you will see on the other side of the table. They synergize really well with the Fireblade and the pathfinder's pulse accelerator drone. Watch your 20 firewarriors now put out 60 S5 shots at 18" with both of the above.

 

 

6.) here's my list. Definitely an aggressive one, but Tau just can't play all suits anymore and can't sit back and shoot like previous editions. You're gonna have to play aggressively and lose some units in an edition where you see frequent T1 charges :devil:

 

HQ

Shas'o R'alai - 158

+ blacklight drones

 

Cadre fireblade - 42

+ markerlight, pulse rifle, photon grenades

 

 

Elites

Ghostkeel battlesuit - 195

+ target lock, cyclic ion raker, 2 fusion blasters

 

3 Crisis suits - 225

+ 3x plasma rifles

 

2 XV9 Hazard suits - 266

+ 2x2 fusion cascades, 2 VT

 

 

Troops

5 strike fire warriors - 40

+ 5 pulse rifles

 

5 strike fire warriors - 40

+ 5 pulse rifles

 

5 strike fire warriors - 40

+ 5 pulse rifles

 

10 breachers - 80

+ 10 pulse blasters

 

 

Dedicated Transports

1 devilfish - 127

+ burst cannons, gun drones

 

 

Fast Attack

 

10 pathfinders - 96

+ pulse carbines, markerlights, photon grenades, 2 drones: grav wave and pulse accelerator

 

 

Heavy Support

1 Broadside Battlesuit -191

+ HRR, 2 SMS, ATS

 

=1500 points

 

It's by no means a win all list, but it's a starting point. Have your buddy find what his threats are (anti tank, anti heavy infantry, anti mob) and build a list with redundancy on tackling those threats.

 

Let him play the units he thinks are cool (rule #1) but also let him know where the list could use some help if he wants it! :) hope that's helpful.

[chapter master 454]

I appreciate the advice. Like mentioned, the main issue is him starting out and thus limited model pool however with what has been said, he certainly has what is needed. His battle suits are set-up like such: 2 with Burst cannon and shield generator, 1 with 2 missile pods and advanced targeting system and the other 3 are twin-burst cannon with advanced targeting systems. They looked awesome that way.

 

Looks like the Riptides can be brought down to being the main support. He has access to 8 gun drones along with 4 marker drones at the ready. The Pathfinders he has has their grav and recon drone ready. On top of that he still have 20 firewarriors to be built (along with some etherals) so it seems like despite a rough first game, he has a solid core to build around. He does also have a coldstar commander.

 

Thanks all, really good words and sounds like it was only just a rough run with the rather heavily knee-capped riptides. Good to know.

[depthcharge12]

Coldstar is really good with the Advanced targeting system giving -1 AP to all its weapons. Unfortunately burst cannons are...underwhelming when you have S5 all over the list. I completely understand the whole limited by models thing.

 

Did he already glue and paint the burst cannons on already? If not, try to blue tack them on or magnetize until he finds a happy medium. If he is a burst cannon aficionado, maybe show him an XV9 with double burst cannons lol.

 

Riptides will just be bleh until the Codex comes and (possibly) fixes them. I'd honestly lobby for the heavy burst cannon. Maybe slap on an advanced targeting system if you'd like, but don't dump points into the riptide thinking it will take on the whole enemy force. Maybe if he likes big shooty things, point him towards a stormsurge :)

[Panzer]

Well one thing he could do is use all of his Crisis Suits as Commander. Should be fine against 99% of his opponents and the 1% who don't like it are not worth playing against.

Commander are simply better than regular Crisis in any situation.

I've seen some lists based around 6 Coldstar Commander even who swap around whenever one of them got too low on wounds so the enemy can't shoot at that model anymore, however regular Commander with 4 Fusion Blaster, 4 Missile Pods or whatever are really good as well.

 

Riptides are pretty meh right now. Take them to annoy the enemy. With their 2+ armor, 5++ (potentially 3++), 6+ not-FnP and the ability to let Drones tank multi-damage wounds they are incredibly tanky even for their points.

I'd definitely go with the HBC there. It's cheaper and does more damage. Don't forget Target Locks on all the big suits unless you can be sure to have enough Markerlight support or else their main guns will hit on 5+ or worse.

 

Definitely take at least 5 Pathfinder in any list. Such a unit costs only 40p and even if it's just the first bonus (re-rolling 1s on to-hit rolls) lets a T'au list perform that much better.

 

Also what kind of Drones did he take with his Riptide? Shield Drones are basically useless and Markerlight Drones are okay-ish...those really need a Drone Controller nearby which uses up a valuable hardpoint. Something you'd rather want to use for an Advanced Targeting Array.

However Gun Drones are REALLY good. 8p for 4 S5 AP0 shots is incredible value even with just BS5+. Add to that, that they have T4 Sv4+ and the Fly keyword AND can get used to tank multi-damage shots....yep Gun Drones are one of the best units in the whole T'au Index at the moment.

 

Pro tip: magnetize Crisis and bigger suits. That's literally the most important thing to learn when starting a T'au army unless you go for a very explicit narrative where every suit has their fix weapon loadout (like I did with my Crisis Bodyguards...now they run around with 2 Fusion Blaster +1 Cyclic Ion Blaster...which is not bad, but not as good as it was in 7th).

 

 

Anyway, the best advice I can give is that your friend should try to be patient. A codex should come this year already and GW already said that the Codices are going to shake things up once again. I'd bet the Riptides will become cheaper or maybe even get a BS3+ or whatever.

Until then he should just go and try things he finds interesting and concentrate on building the army the way he likes it from a fluff and visual point of view. Rules change all the time, but you are going to have to look at the same army every time you play.

Edited July 9, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Trevak Dal]

His battle suits are set-up like such: 2 with Burst cannon and shield generator, 1 with 2 missile pods and advanced targeting system and the other 3 are twin-burst cannon with advanced targeting systems.

D:

 

Tau do not have a lack of s5 shooting in their armies. That many burst cannons on your premium points cost suits...kinda saddens me.

 

While it's good he's concentrating the suits weapons. Missile pods are good all arounders and pay a premium. Plasma rifles are okay.

 

Personally I got a soft spot for Fire Knives (plasma rifle and missile pod) and Fire storms (burst cannon and missile pod) my one unit of three suits (that aren't my commander or Farsight or the other Named guys from The Eight) that aren't magnetized are my Fire storms with 2 burst cannons and a missile pod each (10 shots per guy, 30 per unit).

 

They are kind of expensive in 8th (what isn't for Tau) but where I've been collecting them since 5th I got a lot of firewarriors, Kroot and such.

 

Have your buddy build his firewarriors with pulse rifles (the long skinny ones, not the cool looking carbines or the shotgun looking ones)

Edited July 13, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[Inquisitor Fox]

My own Crisis Suits are set up to have 2 Missile Pods and a Cyclic Ion Blaster for a bazillion S7 shots with good damage.  Range on them is pretty good too :)

[the jeske]

avoid crissis suits . commanders and broad sides to everything they can do . only better, and for fewer points. 4-5 commanders that are hard to targets, because they have stealthsuits near by [which are harder to hit themself] can do ok.

[Panzer]

Also ignore Jeske. :D
Commander are awesome indeed. However I've seen more lists winning with Crisis Suits than I've seen lists winning with Broadsides in 8th so far.

[depthcharge12]

avoid crissis suits . commanders and broad sides to everything they can do . only better, and for fewer points. 4-5 commanders that are hard to targets, because they have stealthsuits near by [which are harder to hit themself] can do ok.

It's just so...dry and gamey. I'm sure GW intended for you to have one or two commanders that do really well, but you shouldn't be fielding an army of them. I can give a dirty look for a fusionmander, but it's still acceptable, 2+ is where I personally have an issue with.

[Trevak Dal]

Regular elites choices shouldn't have average shooting since their markerlight synergy isn't what it once was. That table needs to either be rebalanced and shuffled around or they need to be bs3+.

 

I can't fault someone using a lot of commanders, because it sucks when you have to fight against the rules to try and make your army work. This seems to be the edition of Chaos marines, which is excellent-but old GeeDub is turning the screws to Tau as the wheel turns.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[jeffersonian000]

I prefer my Tu'na in a can, so it's Mobile Suit Gundrone all the way!

 

That said, the key to Tau this early in the new edition is to take what you want with an eye on each unit having a specific job that also includes supporting the other models near it. Gundrones support Suits while dealing damage and filling space. Suits support each other whe dealing damage to specific targets. Infantry take ground and support big box models. Big box models draw attention while supporting the popcorn units with suppressive fire. It's a circle of support while doing the job.

 

Doesn't matter what you take in the end, just that you take what you do to fill a role in your army while not being left to hang on it's own. Things may or may not change when the codex comes out, but the meta will shift as it always does, which will effect the units you want to use. Just be mindful of jobs tgat need to be done and how best that unit can support the rest of the army.

 

SJ