The fall of the mighty chainfist

[NightHowler]

I can't believe I only just now noticed that the Chainfist does less damage than the Thunderhammer. Is it worth the drop in damage from D3 to D2 for the increase to Ap4 as opposed to AP3?

 

I have so many Terminators armed with chainfists, but now I'm not sure how I feel about them...

[Hellrender]

So my first attempt at mathhammer (lol). Assuming a single terminator armed with either a chainfist or a thunderhammer. So thats 2 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+ (against most vehicles).

 

 

Chainfist: 

 

(2 * 1/2) = 1 = 50% attacks hit

1* 1/3 = 0,3333 = 33% attacks wound 

 

Against a 3+ save, which becomes no save:

33% chance to inflict 2 damage.

 

Against a 2+ save, which becomes a 6+ save:

0,333 / 6 * 5 = 0,2778 = 27,7% chance to inflict 2 damage.

 

 

Thunderhammer: 

 

(2 * 1/2) = 1 = 50% attacks hit

1* 1/3 = 0,3333 = 33% attacks wound 

 

Against a 3+ save, which becomes 6+ save:

0,333 / 6 * 5 = 0,2778 = 27,7% chance to inflict 3 damage.

 

Against a 2+ save, which becomes a 5+ save:

0,333 / 6 * 4 = 0,222 = 22,2% chance to inflict 3 damage.

 

-----------------------------

 

So in other words, what are you going to do with it? Attacking land raiders and vehicles, i would say that the chainfist beats the thunderhammer. However, when going after characters, who often have invulnerable saves, i would go with the thunderhammer.

 

 

Also, if my math is off, let me know, happy to learn :)

[DanPesci]

So CF has more chance to do damage, but the TH does more damage when it does....still seems pretty close.

 

I feel like the chainfist should get d6 damage against vehicles instead of d3 (perhaps at a slighlty higher points cost) to make it a more obvious specialsed tank hunter.

[NightHowler]

It's funny, because I assumed they would be d6 damage (at least against vehicles) and was really surprised to find out that they weren't. And as it stands, they are slightly more expensive (2 points more than a thunderhammer).

 

I'm seriously considering ripping the arms off all my chainfist terminators (and there's a lot of them) unless someone can talk me out of it.

[PeteySödes]

I very much prefer the flat damage weapons, like hammers, over swingy ones.  So far my fav weapon has been the tempest hammer on a TWolf Iron Priest, very reliable.

[Hellrender]

Like i said. What do you plan to do with them?

 

Against anything with 2 wounds or less the chainfist is better.

 

Against any vehicle with a 3+ save or better, the chainfist has a higher chance to do it's wounds (note i do not know how to calculate wounds delivered per chainfist terminator or thunderhammer terminator, just the probability of it delivering its damage).

 

However the thunderhammer is better agaibst anything with an invulnerable save and/or 3 wounds.

 

If somebody can help me calculste the dmg delivered per terminator, then we can see other cases too.

 

All in all. Depends what you are going to attack.

[Hellrender]

If im assuming right:

 

Chainfist against 3+ save or worse and no invul: 33% × 2 = 0.66 damage??

 

Thunderhammer 27,7% × 3 = 0.81 damage

 

Against 2+ saves

 

Chainfist: 27,7% × 2 = 0.55 damage

 

Thunderhammer: 22,2% * 3 = 0.666 damage

 

 

 

So thunderhammer seems to win in all cases ***IF MY FORMULA IS CORRECT***. But keep in mind that the thunderhammers 3 damage is wasted against stuff with 2 or fewer wounds. So for example against a 2 wound model with no invulnerable save, and a 3+ armour save:

 

Chainfist: 33% × 2 = 0.66 damage

Thunderhammer: 27,7% × 2 = 0,554 damage

 

Or against a 2+ save

 

Chainfist: 27,7% × 2 = 0.55 damage

 

Thunderhammer: 22,2% * 2 = 0.444 damage

 

In which case the chainfist wins out.

 

But as soon you then factor in invul saves, i expect the thunderhammer to equal chainfists against models with 2 wounds or less.

[Hoots]

Surely we all know that a chainfist is soley for the purposes of opening bulkhead doors on space hulks without having to roll a D6 and offers no improvement on attacks... at least against genestealers!

 

Actually also pretty peeved that these once mighty weapons have been nerfed against vehicles. I wouldn't even increase it's points cost I'd just give it the D6 against vehicles so you might roll high you might roll low.  Makes sense as you might only be cutting up armour or you might be cutting a vital cable in the tank?  

And it's still only mounted on a 2 wound 5++ termie.

 

Hoots

[Gherrick]

I think the CF should work similar to Arjac's hammer: d3 vs non-vehicles, but a flat 3 vs vehicles.

[Hellrender]

But why? I mean, Arjac's Hammer does that because of the skill of the wielder, and the extra effort he puts into killing characters.

 

The chainfist causes X damage regardless of what you put it up against. Smash that fist into somebodies face, and you have massive overkill. But smash it against a vehicle, and the chainfist doesn't suddenly chain harder, or have a bigger powerfield or whatever. The properties of a chainfist don't behave differently against a vehicle or against an ork boy. If anything, i would say that the Chainfist can do more damage, like 3 or 4, and be 25-30 points. It is still massive overkill against infantry and such, but vehicles will be piss scared. 

 

But then balance issues come into play. The Chainfist isn't that hard to get by, as most terminators can get it. A single chainfist with such stats is very good already, like a relic contemptor with a dread chainfist (does 4 damage :P). But once you have 1+ squads of chainfist wielding maniacs, that all deep strike right next to their target, the chainfist with all those extra properties is suddenly a lot more worth than 25-30 points. As a single squad can reliably take out a tank on the charge, and they can multicharge too! The chainfist would need to be costed more in the 40-50 point area in that case.

 

As such, i think the chainfist should do 3 damage, not 2. And cost 25 points. Then it has a clear buff up from the thunderhammer with better AP, but also costed more. Nothing else.