Black Tide in 8th

[Drac0]

So I've been pretty much out of the game since flyers came out and we lost our codex.
With 8th edition I decided to have a look at the game, and with all of the changes would the black tide be viable again?

 

+ There are no blast weapons

+ Characters bubble buffs

+ Mixed armour

+ Massed firepower

+ Conga line of doom (?) grab objectives and other shenenigans

 

 

- No vows -.-

- Leadership tests will hurt us

- Marines are expensive

- Armour save reducing weapons*

 

* That's what the neos are for, right? 

 

Anyways, this is what's going through my mind at the moment, I haven't played any game yet, only had a quick glance on the Index, but 2 blobs with Helbrecht, EC (its over 750 poits we must take him  ) banner and apoc might work the rest of the army would be fire support.

 

So has anyone tought of this? Or has any comments?

[Jacques Corbin]

Grimaldus and Cenobytes, then Morale is a non issue.

[Drac0]

Grimaldus and Cenobytes, then Morale is a non issue.

 

That solves one of the problems, but overall, would it be a viable list?

Suppose the big squads would have to be a mix of bolter and BP + Chainsword marines to shoot on the go and get more shots if charged.

[Firepower]

The topic was sort of covered here- http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334665-tide-v-horde/

 

But it wandered a lot.  Anyway, cenobytes are a must for Tide on account of new Ld issues.  But there are other problems without solutions, or solutions that negate the 'Tide' part altogether.  The main one is mobility.  The old notion of 4th edition Tide where you could smack a load of foot slogging Templars on the board and march them up field is not applicable today, because Righteous Zeal doesn't exist.  No Chapter Tactics exist at all right now of course, with Characters filling in the gaps somewhat, but that free movement from casualties was key to Tide.  We can once again consolidate into combat though, which was the other half of RZ, because the bonus move was a consolidation move.  

 

So the main issue being mobility means a need for Transports, which doesn't 'look like' Tide.  You can still put a lot of boots on the board, but it doesn't resemble the classic 4th depiction.  But then do you want a bunch of 10 man units in Rhinos, or a couple of LRCs filled to the brim?  Well in either situation, you're arguably better off splitting the transport capacity between multiple small Crusader Squads so you can fit in more Power Weapons, Special Weapons, and/or Heavy Weapons than if you took a single squad.  For example, an LRC with 3 units of 5, each with 2 stabby special weapons and one shooty special weapon, accompanied by a Character for buffs, versus a single 15 man unit with just a few special tools and a Character for buffs?  Of course if you go with the former to maximize potential, you're spending a lot more points, meaning even less boots on the field than already lost by relying on transports in the first place.  And if you go with Transports, and in particular with the mixed small units, those cenobytes aren't really so necessary anymore.

 

That also raises the issue of what you want a Crusader Squad to do.  Weight of attacks versus quality of attacks.  If you want to use elite or special units like Vanguard to do the actual heavy hitting in melee, then larger squads in Transports save points, but are more at risk for LD losses.  But if you go that approach, why give the really expensive buggy to the Crusader Squad instead of the real heavy hitters?  I'd much rather be able to deploy the sucker punch of an army to where I need it when I need it, than give a unit with limited capability a very expensive ride.

 

As an aside, you don't have to take Grim to get Cenobytes anymore.  Just something worth mentioning if you missed that like I did.

 

In short, no, Tide doesn't seem especially useful as a tactic right now.  Without the mobility buff and a proper mitigation for Ld issues, it loses out to more...'main stream' styles of Vanilla marines.  That's because right now we almost are Vanilla marines, with one extra unit at the expense of 1 standard unit (Crusaders instead of Witches).  There are no special rules to make LRC a dedicated transport, rules to make the Templars any better at CC or surviving the Ld losses which turn those ablative Neophyte wounds into a liability rather than a boon, etc.  That's not a lament, mind you, just an acknowledgement of where we are until more specific rules come out.  The stop gap Index left the role of every C:SM Chapter's specialties to their Characters' buffs. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Firepower

[Drac0]

I've been watching some battlereps with marines the thing that marines seem to suffer the most in this edition is how easy it is to kill them with all of the saves modifiers. Add to this the fact that their point cost has been increased to elite fighting force status, and it becomes fairly easy to deal with them.

 

When the tide crossed my mind, the first obvious drawback was the lack of mobility (RZ) there's advance now, but nowhere near as good (no shooting and no charging). The second drawback was Ld tests, which it seems cenobites help out with that.

 

So far it does seem like the most viable tactic is MSU in Razorbacks or in 10 men crusader squad in rhino and then combat squad them.

I've been also musing with the idea of a fast striking force (using the models I have) so bikes, jump infantry and land speeders. Infantry would be either scouts ou tacticals depending on points possibly with Helbrecht to hold the line.

 

Seems like I'll have to wait for the codex to see if it will be possible to black tide again or not, all up to the chapter rules.

[Firepower]

If you'd have to build and paint a whole lot of models to follow any of those tactical approaches at the moment, yeah, I would recommend against it.  Best to wait for the next dex.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Firepower

[Drac0]

If you'd have to build and paint a whole lot of models to follow any of those tactical approaches at the moment, yeah, I would recommend against it.  Best to wait for the next dex.

 

Plenty of models for either of the tactics, just need to paint most of them xD

[Kastor Krieg]

Firepower - in 8th Rhinos do not limit you to 10-man units. You can take a full 20-man Crusade Squad and place them in any combination you wish into two Rhinos. 

 

Transports can be shared by many units and units can be split between transports. You just need to disembark them in coherency with each other or they won't move.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Kastor Krieg

[Medjugorje]

the problem is to hide the cenobites against other units... If u hide them behind a vehicle, a few LasCanons later the Rhino doesnt excist any more.

 

I think that we need lot of CP for a black tide.

 

- reroll charges

- because of moral

 

For a good list I think we need a 3 times a brigade detachement ( 2HQs + 3 Troop Choices).

Helbrecht for a few 5-man-squads with lascanons and grimaldus + EC for the big ones for the offense

[HenricusTyranicus]

Couple of things. First, Cenobytes are not really necessary for a black tide list. Being immune to morale if your opponent can't kill a couple toughness 3 models is known as not being immune to morale at all. Even if you hide them out of sight, they can still be targeted by artillery, and their mobility goes down massively. Hide them behind a Rhino, you're basically wasting that Rhino, since it can't move more than 6 inches. Welcome to your 76 point Cenobytes. Second, I think that Black Tides are viable still. The biggest problem is mobility, but that can be mitigated by placing plenty of objectives in the center, and creating a multitude of threats that force your opponent to give your Templars time to reach them. 

 

Consider an army built around 8 man crusader squads, a SB, 4 initiates, and 3 Neophytes, with that the same 8 man unit repeated over and over again. Now throw three chaplains into your army to create bubbles of LD 9 and rerolling. Between LD and the Rerolls, you'll hardly ever lose anyone to Morale. And for around 800 points, you can have around 60 crusaders charging upfield. At 2000 points, that leaves plenty of room for Helbrecht in a LRC with some Vanguard Vets and Honor Guard, and Grimaldus with a Stormraven, more vanguard, and an Ironclad Dread. (I'm kinda guesstimating on those points, but I think it works.) That's 80 Crusaders, basically all rerolling in CC, with plenty getting in your face turn two, and depending on the deployment type, and advancement rolls, everyone else closing turns 3 and 4. Not too bad.

 

This build will also have the pleasing side affect of giving loads of command points, which will matter a lot more in the new codex, when we get stratagems that that will mega boost our CC abilities. 

[T-Rock]

I really hadn't considered black tide until reading that, Henricus. Some interesting ideas to mull over.

 

I feel like it might be worth while to sit a RL/LC dev squad or two in the backfield for objective squatting and anti-vehicle, as mechanized lists are becoming increasingly prevalent. Combine that with the stormraven zipping around and board control from the crusaders, and your pretty set for objective grabbing.

 

My main worry would be against other CC oriented armies or hordes, though. Maybe I've come up against genestealers one too many times since 8th dropped, but even with buffs our CC output is solid, but not sensational. I feel like this list would struggle to chip enough wounds off horde lists and go punch for punch with CC armies.

 

Still though, I'm intrigued by the idea.

[Honda]

Couple of things. First, Cenobytes are not really necessary for a black tide list. Being immune to morale if your opponent can't kill a couple toughness 3 models is known as not being immune to morale at all. Even if you hide them out of sight, they can still be targeted by artillery, and their mobility goes down massively. Hide them behind a Rhino, you're basically wasting that Rhino, since it can't move more than 6 inches. Welcome to your 76 point Cenobytes. Second, I think that Black Tides are viable still. The biggest problem is mobility, but that can be mitigated by placing plenty of objectives in the center, and creating a multitude of threats that force your opponent to give your Templars time to reach them. 

 

Consider an army built around 8 man crusader squads, a SB, 4 initiates, and 3 Neophytes, with that the same 8 man unit repeated over and over again. Now throw three chaplains into your army to create bubbles of LD 9 and rerolling. Between LD and the Rerolls, you'll hardly ever lose anyone to Morale. And for around 800 points, you can have around 60 crusaders charging upfield. At 2000 points, that leaves plenty of room for Helbrecht in a LRC with some Vanguard Vets and Honor Guard, and Grimaldus with a Stormraven, more vanguard, and an Ironclad Dread. (I'm kinda guesstimating on those points, but I think it works.) That's 80 Crusaders, basically all rerolling in CC, with plenty getting in your face turn two, and depending on the deployment type, and advancement rolls, everyone else closing turns 3 and 4. Not too bad.

 

This build will also have the pleasing side affect of giving loads of command points, which will matter a lot more in the new codex, when we get stratagems that that will mega boost our CC abilities.

 

 

THIS IS HOW A BLACK TEMPLAR APPROACHES A PROBLEM.

 

WITH ZEAL!

[Medjugorje]

Yesterday I was on the first tournament and Infanterie is sooo bad. No real chance to win anything. Not against that spam of Assault Cannons and those Mechanicus Robots with 9 shots... Its just crazy.

 

If you have a Vanguard, they are fully ripped if your enemy have a few vehicles to charge your troop - you need 3-4 Rounds to kill them with a full troop. Its just crazy. Close Combat is more a way to discourage from shooting instead of killing something.

[SydonianDragoon404]

My winning record with my Templar army says otherwise. Infantry need guns to do their work. Flamers, melta guns, plasma guns, lascannons, heavy bolters, all things Crusaders can take better than the other chapters. I don't run black tide, but when backed up by special characters who do a lot of heavy lifting, Crusader squads do work.

[Medjugorje]

If i talk abaut Crusadersquads - then i mean 6-10 Initiates + 2-10 Scouts - all with CC-weapons.

 

I talk abaut close combat. I know that we are good in shooting already. But thats the problem... i want to play them like they have to be,.... if not - i can play Robot Gulliman.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Sorry but that's an extremely poor way to think about the game and the fluff. Are you trying to tell me that if a Black Templar Initiate takes a special weapon, or a squad of Black Templars take special weapons like meltas, heavy bolters, or flamers, that they might as well be an Ultramarine? I mean, it's fiction and everything is up for interpretation but that's probably the most far out interpretation of the fluff for Black Templars I've ever seen. You do you, but don't imply that Crusaders who are entrusted to take special weapons to support the squad might as well be an Ultramarine just because they aren't rocking a bolt pistol and chainsword. Templars aren't crazed Berzerkers of Khorne who throw themselves at the enemy for the sake of it, the difference between righteous zeal and madness is temperament, the ability to see where and how a sword is thrust to cause maximum damage to the enemy on the attack, not just throwing your life away for the sake of a glorious death. 

 

Go read Helsreach, take note of the parts where Grimaldus is tempted to act out of rage, out of a thirst for glory, or even just out of tradition in accordance with Templar doctrine, and yet he stays his hand, keeps his mouth shut (sometimes) where prudent. He takes calculated risks both in battle and in conversation. Templar battle doctrine isn't about your equipment, it's about how you use it. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Closet Skeleton]

Or you could just look at the 3rd edition box art and clearly see bolters then look harder to notice the flamer and melta gun and what's probably a heavy bolter and that the prominant guy with the power axe has a combi-flamer. The only Sword Brethren there has a plasma pistol and power sword while appearing to be leading a bunch of regular initiates as a sergeant.

 

Yes that art predates all real BT fluff and rules but if you try and tell me that the 3rd ed box art isn't what Templars are really about and it might as well be depicting Ultramarines then most people in this sub forum will stop valuing your opinion pretty quickly.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Schlitzaf]

What Sydonian said. Furthermore stop trying to think as of our Crusaders as CCW monsters, we're not. While Hel, and Grim provide a very nice set of bonus. Let me personally iterate, those buffs are not one round only buffs.

 

We are Scions of Dorn, We are Sigismund Legacy, We are Black Templars, and We Will Endure. Our army is not an Imperial Berzerker Army, save that dishonor for the Blood Angels. We are not ranged weapon specialists like Dark Angels. You know what we are? We are Black Templars.

 

Our Crusader Squad strength, is because unlike the likes of Blood Angels, we don't lose anything for the combat going multiple rounds. Unlike Wolves our bonus are not only one turn, our bonus are permanent. The reason why Cenos are good is that they allow us to play like we did in 4th-5th Edition.

 

Stick in combat and not budge. For we shall make our grave upon that spot and not take one step back. To quote our dear Grim, "I have dug my grave in this place, I will either triumph or I will die!"

 

You intend to kill? Good. But our strength does not allow us to do so as well as other Marine Armies. Instead we endure. Our Marines are point cheap effectively if you take equal marines to neophytes. Or they are 24 points, 4 attacks, 2 wound models.

 

So I ask what is your goal with the Crusader Squads?

[Acebaur]

If i talk abaut Crusadersquads - then i mean 6-10 Initiates + 2-10 Scouts - all with CC-weapons.

 

I talk abaut close combat. I know that we are good in shooting already. But thats the problem... i want to play them like they have to be,.... if not - i can play Robot Gulliman.

 

 

Not sure if you ever played during the time when we had our own codex, but even it says "Initiates are armed primarily with the holy bolter though given the Black Templars preference for fighting their foes face to face many choose to carry equipment more suited to close combat. Some squad members carry more specialized weaponry such as plasma guns, flamers or might power fists. Black Templar squads are highly flexible and have the tactical ability to deal with virtually any foe, instructing their neophytes by bloody example."

 

So just because we like to right in the face of the enemy doesn't mean we throw our guns away, on the contrary, many weapons are perfectly suited for this kind of warfare, including the bolter itself. Now that there are no longer any charge restrictions, running a mixed squad may actually be more beneficial than going pure CC or pure shooting. 

[Gendo]

Haven't played a proper Tide yet but i usually run 3x 15 man CC squads on foot and it's the only thing I'm not having an issue with this edition.

 

Never failed a morale test, I just advance the Cenobytes every single turn and with them not really being a priority target they usually last all game long, also 12" bubble it's lots.

 

I think on foot beats transport, get a Razorback and it gets charged asap and mostly shooting at 4+ as you want to move and deliver something, get a Rhino an it's 72pts to just deliver stuff and gets in the way of other troops movement. I rather take the chance to lose up to 72pts worth of models whilst advancing.

[Schlitzaf]

Gendo, I think that is a fine tide imho. A tide is 2-4 Big Squads + 2-6 supporting Squads. Through I have to ask, have you not been having trouble with your Squads tripping over another? It's why I switched to 2 14 Man and 2 Intercessor Squads. From 3 14 Man Squads

[Drac0]

I have a feeling Cenobytes will be gettin a faq.
on the BT index section they are listed as elites, as such they can be shot at even if other units are closer to the enemy.

 

BUT on page 203 they are listed as Named Characters would this be a loophole to the rule?

 

P.S - I had never thought I'd live to see the day when a servitor is listed as equal to chapter masters and even a primarch  

[Gerhard]

I have a feeling Cenobytes will be gettin a faq.

on the BT index section they are listed as elites, as such they can be shot at even if other units are closer to the enemy.

 

BUT on page 203 they are listed as Named Characters would this be a loophole to the rule?

 

P.S - I had never thought I'd live to see the day when a servitor is listed as equal to chapter masters and even a primarch

 

I would say lore-wise (at least thats how I like to think of it), it's not the Servitor that is the elite / has the elite status... but more the ancient chapter Relic they carry which inspires the troops.

[Kisada]

Firepower - in 8th Rhinos do not limit you to 10-man units. You can take a full 20-man Crusade Squad and place them in any combination you wish into two Rhinos. 

 

Transports can be shared by many units and units can be split between transports. You just need to disembark them in coherency with each other or they won't move.

 

where are you seeing the ability to split between transports??

[Medjugorje]

they havent the keyword "character" - so they can be chosen as target as usual.

 

and 3 toughness 3 guys with a 4+ save are not a impossible mission - even not in this edition.