Black Tide in 8th

[Ebon Hand]

If they get killed, so what, they are only 6 points. Keep Chaplains with your squads and use the auto pass morale strategem if you must.

 

I played an Apocalypse game for my first game of 8th and my Cenobites didn't even get looked at because there were just way more pressing matters for the opponents at all times.

 

A combination of pressuring your enemy and keeping them out of sight when you can will protect them decently, and if the opponent wastes artillery on them it's a victory for you anyway. Just play as if you aren't depending solely on them, Cenobites are more like morale insurance.

[Gendo]

Gendo, I think that is a fine tide imho. A tide is 2-4 Big Squads + 2-6 supporting Squads. Through I have to ask, have you not been having trouble with your Squads tripping over another? It's why I switched to 2 14 Man and 2 Intercessor Squads. From 3 14 Man Squads

 

Depends on the terrain, I don't move them as a blob but with Power weapons in front so they can surely get attacks off when in the fight, the rest can trail off and pile in later. With Cenobytes advancing each turn and trying to max the 2" unit coherency.

 

If you have a LRC in the middle it's an hindrance as it always get shot into oblivion and down to 3" movement pretty quickly, making it hard to move around it.

[Brother Talarian]

What about running a ride with an ancient?

[Medjugorje]

If they get killed, so what, they are only 6 points. Keep Chaplains with your squads and use the auto pass morale strategem if you must.

 

I played an Apocalypse game for my first game of 8th and my Cenobites didn't even get looked at because there were just way more pressing matters for the opponents at all times.

 

A combination of pressuring your enemy and keeping them out of sight when you can will protect them decently, and if the opponent wastes artillery on them it's a victory for you anyway. Just play as if you aren't depending solely on them, Cenobites are more like morale insurance.

because deployment and first kill,... last time i´ve played i had one unit more to deploy then my enemy, and i was playing Cenobits. Then first kill in the first round goes to my enemy - ya ya... you know which unit he killed .

 

They need the charakter rule  -  then they would be nice

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

If they get killed, so what, they are only 6 points. Keep Chaplains with your squads and use the auto pass morale strategem if you must.

 

I played an Apocalypse game for my first game of 8th and my Cenobites didn't even get looked at because there were just way more pressing matters for the opponents at all times.

 

A combination of pressuring your enemy and keeping them out of sight when you can will protect them decently, and if the opponent wastes artillery on them it's a victory for you anyway. Just play as if you aren't depending solely on them, Cenobites are more like morale insurance.

because deployment and first kill,... last time i´ve played i had one unit more to deploy then my enemy, and i was playing Cenobits. Then first kill in the first round goes to my enemy - ya ya... you know which unit he killed .

 

They need the charakter rule  -  then they would be nice

 

 

Servitors though as characters? That's just unfluffy... just hide them in a Rhino or a Land Raider next time you deploy... or put them behind a vehicle... just make sure that the enemy has no LOS to them if you think that the enemy would shoot them first... I've never run them in 8th, but I ran them in 7th and 6th and they were a much bigger pain then... stuck w/ Grimaldus and forcing him to run by himself...

 

or you can have a much bigger threat straight at the front of his forces... would he shoot Cenobyte Servitors if you have 2 Land Raiders in the front lines? or maybe a couple of AC Razorbacks?

[Drac0]

 

If they get killed, so what, they are only 6 points. Keep Chaplains with your squads and use the auto pass morale strategem if you must.

 

I played an Apocalypse game for my first game of 8th and my Cenobites didn't even get looked at because there were just way more pressing matters for the opponents at all times.

 

A combination of pressuring your enemy and keeping them out of sight when you can will protect them decently, and if the opponent wastes artillery on them it's a victory for you anyway. Just play as if you aren't depending solely on them, Cenobites are more like morale insurance.

 

They need the charakter rule  -  then they would be nice

 

 

Not really, just make them upgrades to chaplains, kinda like familiars used to work for witches (filth) that way they would become untargetable as they are "one with the character"

[Medjugorje]

would be more better to be a unit with grimaldus - and still gain the charakter keyword because of grimaldus.

[Firepower]

It's a mixed bag.  I like having them available to armies without Grimaldus.  This is the way it was way back in the day.  Grim just had super special Cenobytes.  But yeah, it's easier to keep them around when they're wargear, tied to a unit, what-have-you.

 

Between the two choices, I think it's better as they are rather than tied to Grimaldus specifically.  It would be interesting if they went closer to their original status though, allowing them to be tied to any Chaplain, not just Grim.

 

But for a paltry 6 points, alongside the power of their buff, their vulnerability seems appropriate.

 

But getting too hung up on them right now may not be important soon, if they're fiddled with in the upcoming C:SM.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Firepower

[Gendo]

 

If they get killed, so what, they are only 6 points. Keep Chaplains with your squads and use the auto pass morale strategem if you must.

 

I played an Apocalypse game for my first game of 8th and my Cenobites didn't even get looked at because there were just way more pressing matters for the opponents at all times.

 

A combination of pressuring your enemy and keeping them out of sight when you can will protect them decently, and if the opponent wastes artillery on them it's a victory for you anyway. Just play as if you aren't depending solely on them, Cenobites are more like morale insurance.

because deployment and first kill,... last time i´ve played i had one unit more to deploy then my enemy, and i was playing Cenobits. Then first kill in the first round goes to my enemy - ya ya... you know which unit he killed .

 

They need the charakter rule  -  then they would be nice

 

 

 I always have them behind my LRC at deployment, enough cover especially if you have buildings nearby. Also nobody in my local area thought about getting first blood that way ;)

[Medjugorje]

Take a flyer or units who reach per deepstrike. And there are a lot of them

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Take a flyer or units who reach per deepstrike. And there are a lot of them

 

Does everybody in your meta, automatically aim for your Servitors? I mean yeah, they give 1 Warlord kill, but if I'm going to waste a deep striking squad or a flyer to shoot some Servitors, then they have also done their job... i.e. instead of shooting my exposed HQ in the back, or instead of shooting some Lasscannons off the table, or instead of some Bolter fire towards my backfield artillery, they have wasted Alpha Strike towards some defenseless Servitors... and I can pay them back in full by wiping the Deep Striking Squad or that flyer with retaliatory fire...

 

It's a really dumb tactic to use an Alpha Strike over a non critical target...

 

If I had a Flyer or an Alpha Strike unit, and I really want to claim first blood, I'd aim it at something important... like a backfield Devasstator Squad, or your aforementioned Razorback w/ Guilliman... I'd throw all my Flyers and my Deep Striking Meltaguns at those tanks and whatever's left can fire at Guilliman, same case if I was facing Templars... I wouldn't aim at the Servitors, I'd aim my Alpha Strike at the Land Raider or any nearby transports, and watch as they try to hobble across the battlefield soaking up heavy fire, or any backfield support such as Predators or Thunderfire Cannons or the Dual Autocannon Dreadnoughts... but Servitors? as initial targets? really?

 

Swatting flies with Rocket Launchers much?

[Medjugorje]

• it needs just one weapon of the whole flyer.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

• it needs just one weapon of the whole flyer.

 

 

It needs a weapon that can do 3 Solid Hits and 3 Solid Wounds... that goes w/ Heavy Bolters, Flamers (which only a few Flyers have), Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters, that Las Weapon thing that Valkyries have and a plethora of other weapons that you'd rather shoot at something else... 3 solid hits is something I wouldn't want to waste on Servitors, even Heavy Bolters... how many Flyers out there have a weapon that can do a solid 3 shot, that you decide to waste on Servitors... even still there's no guarantee that they would actually die, you'd need to pout more shots to ensure that they die within 1 shooting phase, and doing so wastes bullets that you can direct at something else... If I had battlesuits, it would be a waste of shots to waste on them... and tbh, I'd rather do solid shots on some Primaris Hellblasters than waste shots on them... you're a Mathammer guy, how many shots do I need to waste the three Servitors in 1 round w/ Heavy Bolters?

 

edit: also, mind you, but they are affected by their own Special Rule, so they are immune to Battleshock rolls while they are active, so you'd need to actually kill them instead of making them run off the battlefield...

Edited July 17, 2017 by Marshal_Roujakis

[Gendo]

I wouldn't expose a flyer for the chance of taking down servitors who are likely to be not far from my LRC with MM rerolling and some other Storm Bolters, in all the games I've had they only got targeted once and still had one left.

 

I rather take off wounds from LRC, Predators and Rhinos or deal with a Drop, first blood it's only 1 point (think).

Edited July 17, 2017 by Gendo

[Gendo]

On the Tide note, I've faced strong artillery and mobs on my last game, Crusaders chewed through the mobs but as soon as they were out of combat they're as good as dead with a volley from out of sight artillery.

 

Came to the conclusion that a proper Tide can't work for me as I need all the upgrades on squads and all the buffs I can get to make them effective and that cuts deep into the body count.

 

I still pretty much field only Combat Crusaders but I'm leaving half the bodies home lately because of the cost and I rather give them transports to get a change of getting into Combat, not much worried about losing them if exposed but I rather move 12" and have 2 Storm Bolters to support them with a turn 2 charge very achievable. 

[Acebaur]

You need 10 heavy bolter shots to kill the servitors on average, 14 if you moved and don't have potms

[Schlitzaf]

Gendo, if run a Tide you have to run a pretty sizable contingent of Deep Strikers for precisely that reason. I run Scions, Ponies, alongside Assault Terminators, Jump Marshall, and an Interceptor Squad (potentially replaced by two Reivars post Codex).

 

Essentially it's the old fashion 5th Ed Nid Tactic of the Wave Strike. You hit hard and fast with units like Stealers and Lictors. Followed up by Tervigons and Gaunts. Then go for the killing blow using Trygons and company. Save here you instead go

 

Ponies + Scions or Interceptors (depending on avaliable targets. Interceptor may be replaced by Assault Marines. The idea is fast moving target, which can shred Infantry)

Turn two the bulk of your army should be engaged + Scions or Interceptors

Turn three remaining deep strikers. They may also come in turn two (or even one). That is just my specific brew anyways. An unsupported tide is a dead tide.

 

Cenos are vital to keeping your tide Squads up and functional. A core cadre of forward or fast striking units to keep enemy big guns off Crusaders. And enough little targets to keep enemy small guns off Cenos.

 

---------

I learned 40k by dividing each list in three kinds of armies. Percision Strike, Point Control, or Sledghammer. Precision Strike are traditionally armies like Eldar or Tau, they lack effective unit count to go unit on unit. Instead they focus on key targets and seek to remove key figures or units from an army. They are strong vs Point Control but Weak to Sledgehammer. They seek to force the enemy to engage on all fronts by choosing point of engagement.

 

Point Control is a list with 'effective' large unit count and able to control the entire battlefield at once. They rely on a select few units to carry the game. Other units are their to provide objective claim, and support. Tyranids with Synapse or Drop Pod List is a classic Point Control. They seek to engage on all fronts by deploying everywhere. Due to their army being essentially resolving around a couple linchpins they are weak to precision strike. But due to forcing a Sledgehammer to engage on all fronts, is strong vs Sledgehammer.

 

Sledgehammer, is Deathstar or Blob army. These are armies which are focused on a single effective "unit". For example Helbrect providing buff to a force of two Centered Crusader and building an army to defend and support the center. They lack mobility. And choose to force engagement on one specific point. They lack linchpins of point control and mobility of precision strike. They are strong vs Percision Strike due to Precision being forced to fight on Sledge Term. Due to only having one effective front, Percision is forced to fight Sledge on Sledge Term. They are weak to point control, because they are forced to separate to try and control battlefield.

 

--------

A good tide is a Sledghehammer. You want to force engagement on one zone. But most lists are actually a hybridization of two list type. Rarely will one list be purely one type or another to cover up one weakness. Often times a list can transition between two. Drop Pods can switch to being Percision Strike instead of Point Control for example.

 

My tide list is a hybrid Point Control-Hammer. Cenobytes, and Characters being linchpins. But my Crusaders and Intercessor are not less effective without Cenos, because they their number of attacks and damage doesn't immidately decrease. Even losing 4 guys a turn you need 5+ roll to fail and that is rerollable.

 

Even without character they are acceptable units because they can tarpit and put out 12-18 attacks a turn. However I still I want to force a centered engagement using my Crusader and Intercessor center.

 

My army is also point control because I can force engagement on all fronts because I have 9 deep strike units. And I can transition into weak precision strike, if needed due my large number of deep strikers. However I say weak because my only reliable shooting from Deep Strike is Interceptors and Scions. Compared to Tau which can mass strike Crisis suites and then rapidly redeploy to fight another front.

 

Those three categories are broad and most good lists will have elements of all three. But will lean very heavily into one of three categories, the best ones well have very notable elements of the second, to avoid unwinnable match ups. I tangetend.

 

My point here is a Tide alone will lose. It is pretty hard countered by a list like artillery armies which can force engagements on all front (or point control). You need to support the tide properly. I don't know what list you were playing Gendo so I cannot comment too much. But this is also a response to Med, when we said "Kill Gulli using Crusaders," a tide shouldn't be just characters, Crusaders and Cenos.

 

A tide should be a combined arms using a variety of units to support and defend the tide from its opposition as you seek to best implement your game plan.

[Gendo]

Not sure where to post it but someone in my gaming group on FB found leaked tactics:

 

Ultras: +1Ld, can fall back and still shoot at -1 to hit
RG: -1 to hit them at 12" or more away
WS: Can fall back and charge
IF: All shooting is ignore cover. Rerolling to wound against keyword Buildings
IH: ignore wounds on a roll of a 6
BT: rerolling failed charges
SAL: every unit can reroll one failed hit AND wound dice every time it shoots or fights

 

Not sure I like it, rather have +1A and use CP to reroll charges.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Gendo

[Gendo]

Gendo, if run a Tide you have to run a pretty sizable contingent of Deep Strikers for precisely that reason. I run Scions, Ponies, alongside Assault Terminators, Jump Marshall, and an Interceptor Squad (potentially replaced by two Reivars post Codex).

 

Essentially it's the old fashion 5th Ed Nid Tactic of the Wave Strike. You hit hard and fast with units like Stealers and Lictors. Followed up by Tervigons and Gaunts. Then go for the killing blow using Trygons and company. Save here you instead go

 

Ponies + Scions or Interceptors (depending on avaliable targets. Interceptor may be replaced by Assault Marines. The idea is fast moving target, which can shred Infantry)

Turn two the bulk of your army should be engaged + Scions or Interceptors

Turn three remaining deep strikers. They may also come in turn two (or even one). That is just my specific brew anyways. An unsupported tide is a dead tide.

 

Cenos are vital to keeping your tide Squads up and functional. A core cadre of forward or fast striking units to keep enemy big guns off Crusaders. And enough little targets to keep enemy small guns off Cenos.

 

---------

I learned 40k by dividing each list in three kinds of armies. Percision Strike, Point Control, or Sledghammer. Precision Strike are traditionally armies like Eldar or Tau, they lack effective unit count to go unit on unit. Instead they focus on key targets and seek to remove key figures or units from an army. They are strong vs Point Control but Weak to Sledgehammer. They seek to force the enemy to engage on all fronts by choosing point of engagement.

 

Point Control is a list with 'effective' large unit count and able to control the entire battlefield at once. They rely on a select few units to carry the game. Other units are their to provide objective claim, and support. Tyranids with Synapse or Drop Pod List is a classic Point Control. They seek to engage on all fronts by deploying everywhere. Due to their army being essentially resolving around a couple linchpins they are weak to precision strike. But due to forcing a Sledgehammer to engage on all fronts, is strong vs Sledgehammer.

 

Sledgehammer, is Deathstar or Blob army. These are armies which are focused on a single effective "unit". For example Helbrect providing buff to a force of two Centered Crusader and building an army to defend and support the center. They lack mobility. And choose to force engagement on one specific point. They lack linchpins of point control and mobility of precision strike. They are strong vs Percision Strike due to Precision being forced to fight on Sledge Term. Due to only having one effective front, Percision is forced to fight Sledge on Sledge Term. They are weak to point control, because they are forced to separate to try and control battlefield.

 

--------

A good tide is a Sledghehammer. You want to force engagement on one zone. But most lists are actually a hybridization of two list type. Rarely will one list be purely one type or another to cover up one weakness. Often times a list can transition between two. Drop Pods can switch to being Percision Strike instead of Point Control for example.

 

My tide list is a hybrid Point Control-Hammer. Cenobytes, and Characters being linchpins. But my Crusaders and Intercessor are not less effective without Cenos, because they their number of attacks and damage doesn't immidately decrease. Even losing 4 guys a turn you need 5+ roll to fail and that is rerollable.

 

Even without character they are acceptable units because they can tarpit and put out 12-18 attacks a turn. However I still I want to force a centered engagement using my Crusader and Intercessor center.

 

My army is also point control because I can force engagement on all fronts because I have 9 deep strike units. And I can transition into weak precision strike, if needed due my large number of deep strikers. However I say weak because my only reliable shooting from Deep Strike is Interceptors and Scions. Compared to Tau which can mass strike Crisis suites and then rapidly redeploy to fight another front.

 

Those three categories are broad and most good lists will have elements of all three. But will lean very heavily into one of three categories, the best ones well have very notable elements of the second, to avoid unwinnable match ups. I tangetend.

 

My point here is a Tide alone will lose. It is pretty hard countered by a list like artillery armies which can force engagements on all front (or point control). You need to support the tide properly. I don't know what list you were playing Gendo so I cannot comment too much. But this is also a response to Med, when we said "Kill Gulli using Crusaders," a tide shouldn't be just characters, Crusaders and Cenos.

 

A tide should be a combined arms using a variety of units to support and defend the tide from its opposition as you seek to best implement your game plan.

 

Thanks for the write up, I had LRC and 2 Rhinos full of CC Crusaders with Helbrecht, Chaplin, Techmarine and EC, Cenobytes and Honour Guard with EC. Las Predator and Autocannon Ven Dreadnought plus melta drop.

I've tried Assault Termies and Vanguard Vets but I usually fail the 9" charge and they are just expensive furniture, even tried maxing out on Rhino capacity and having a chaplain jumping in to support both but all failed the charge haha.

Will probably give deep strikers another go with the new CT, but for now I rather have a strong punch out of vehicles.

[Schlitzaf]

What do you mean by EC? You can only have 1 E Champion

[Medjugorje]

You need 10 heavy bolter shots to kill the servitors on average, 14 if you moved and don't have potms

 

should be no problem for no one!!!!

[Medjugorje]

Not sure where to post it but someone in my gaming group on FB found leaked tactics:

 

Ultras: +1Ld, can fall back and still shoot at -1 to hit

RG: -1 to hit them at 12" or more away

WS: Can fall back and charge

IF: All shooting is ignore cover. Rerolling to wound against keyword Buildings

IH: ignore wounds on a roll of a 6

BT: rerolling failed charges

SAL: every unit can reroll one failed hit AND wound dice every time it shoots or fights

 

Not sure I like it, rather have +1A and use CP to reroll charges.

 

think so too.

 

reroll charges is okay but not enough.

[Schlitzaf]

 

You need 10 heavy bolter shots to kill the servitors on average, 14 if you moved and don't have potms

 

 

 

should be no problem for no one!!!!

That is an entire unit of Bolter Devies. Or 105 points. Killing 6 Points. Instead of 2 Initaites or Neophytes.

[HenricusTyranicus]

You'd want to watch out for mortars and their equivalents. A 27 point unit might not kill them in one turn, but barring horrible luck, should in two. 

[Schlitzaf]

Cenos should only need to last a couple turns. Once your squad down to 7-8 men. Battle Shock is not much of an issue. It's losing the first 4-6 is when BattleShock hurts the most.