Gav Thorpe as a BL Writer - Honest Review Please?

[Augustus]

There's lots I like about Gav. He makes the 40k universe seem really big and everyone in it rightfully ignorant. "His" universe really conveys the myth, ignorance, and overall grimdarkness of 40k. Sometimes though, his characters actions seem ignorant --to me.

 

It seems to be his style. Like... In his books he has an event or plot he wants to happen and he sees it through which might come off forced.

 

Conversely some other authors might be considered to take a more character driven story. There could be downsides to that as well.

[Midgard]

I think that with Gav, there is a definite upward trend in the quality of his writing. I might be in the minority here, but I did not really care for "Angels of Darkness" all that much, especially as I was just getting into BL fiction at the time, and thought it was not equal to other bigger name BL authors. That said, Gav's works over the last 4-5 years seem to be getting much stronger, as if he is building up on his strengths as a writer and learning from his past literary experiences. That latter part cannot be underestimated, and to me it makes much of a difference in my perception of Gav as a writer.

 

His Raven Guard works are a good example of it. I thought that "Deliverance Lost" was one of the weaker Heresy novels, but even there he had glimpses of excellent writing (check out the scene of Corax's arrival on Lycaeus as a child, for example, or parts towards the end where Navar Hef was introduced). Surprisingly, the subsequent Raven Guard novellas assembled in the "Corax" anthology (and previously as standalones) were very good, ranging from decent-not-spectacular "Soulforge" to pretty-good "Ravenlord" to (IMHO) very-good "Weregeld". Similarly, Thorpe seems to get the Dark Angels feel right to me, especially in his recent works, from "The Lion" novella to "Angels of Caliban" (and his Dark Angels trilogy makes for very good reading). While I have had only minimal exposure to his Eldar stories (I only have read the Asuryan novel, and as someone who does not generally have much interest in the Eldar I liked it), he seems to be all about getting the feel right, pacing the story generally well and providing good amount of color and personality to it via flashbacks (which were, IMHO, the best thing about "Deliverance Lost" as well).

 

Add to it the general approachable and friendly quality of his online presence, a definite upward trend in his writing, and, at least to me, it warrants a buy if it deals with a topic I find interesting. While I have not been shelling out for the Primarchs novel(las) in limited edition, I have every intention on catching up on them all eventually, and look forward to seeing what Gav did with Lorgar.

 

On a side note, I would be very interested in checking out his original universe fantasy trilogy and seeing how it compares to his BL writing. It is always interesting to see how much of a role do the confines of a shared universe play in how an author writes, and what their writings would be like when they have free reign to define their world.

[HeritorA]

What Gav is good with:

 

1) "His" universe really conveys the myth, ignorance, and overall grimdarkness of 40k. - as Augustus mentioned.

2) His ability to create in his mind an 'AWESOME' battle scene - which fails for us, cause through it was awesome in his mind, while he written it  it lost the most cool moments. (Ravenwing and Azrael are the best examples of this).

3) He do respects lore, which is more than could be said about a lot of good/bad BL authors.

4) He is amazing writing WFB stuff.

5) He is one of the  truly friendly authors. A D-B could answer us on forums, but it is Gav who write the best newsletters and blogs.

[DaanofWar]

I only read his raven guard stuff, but IMO Gav is a good writer and a nice guy. He can either pleasantly surprise you or kick you hard in the nuts with a random plot twist that he probably thought was cool/dark/tragic, but noone at BL had the heart to tell him was :cuss.

 

Deliverance Lost: lots of good bits, but a lot of meh bits as well.

 

Soulforge: Pretty good and satisfying.

 

Ravenlord: Good stuff.

 

Shadowmaster/The Value of Fear: short and sweet.

 

Raptor: Pretty good until the kick in the nuts.

 

Weregeld: Awesome wrap-up and redeems the suckage of Raptor a bit.

 

The Grey Raven: Why, Gav why?!?! I now need my 3 euro's back so I can go get a large bag of crushed ice to apply directly to my unbearably bruised ballsac.

[HeritorA]

'He can either pleasantly surprise you or kick you hard in the nuts with a random plot twist that he probably thought was cool/dark/tragic, but noone at BL had the heart to tell him was :cuss.' - YES, YES AND YES.

'Deliverance Lost: lots of good bits, but a lot of meh bits as well...Soulforge: Pretty good and satisfying.' - well, for me both goes into meh. But still they are better than utter MEH of the 'Ravenwing'

[rendingon1+]

His wh40k books were unfortunately a source of constant dissappointment to me - though sometimes he manages to make quite an interesting and likable characters (often 3rd plan sadly).

 

His WHFB dwarfs - man... They are ace. He can write great Dwarf stories, balancing humour, epicness, gravity etc into very nice mix. His High Elves are stron either - I really enjoyed Shadow King, with a view of pre Sundering Nagarythe, elf customs and so on. This book feels very like HH novel.

 

Unfortunately the Old World is no more, so...

[Gen.Steiner]

I think Gav's work in the Old World is wonderful, primarily because, like many of the Old Guard, I think he inhabited that world for longer than 40K. On the other hand, and I do sound like a broken record here, you really should all be reading Last Chancers.

[Sothalor]

I think, for me, Gav is great as a "high level blurb" sort of guy. I think he's great at little paragraphs describing some event or action from distant, omniscient-narrator-esque perspectives. His works often try to incorporate grand ideas, sweeping events, and plot/universe twists that seem designed to make long-time fans go, "Wait what? Whoa!"

 

However, is execution just misses the mark for me. I find his prose perfunctory and lifeless. He lacks a certain deftness of characterization the likes of ADB and Dan Abnett have demonstrated with characters like Eisenhorn, Talos, Argel Tal, the Ghosts. Beta, Grimaldus, etc. There's something about his dialogue that never quite clicks with me; one standout being the Dreadwing standing around chanting in Angels of Caliban. "We have come. We are death."  

 

The other thing with his characters is that I don't really get the sense that they're driving the plot - rather the other way around. I always come away with the impression that  events just happen and people do things because the plot demands it - established characterization be damned.

 

I'd say he tries to be almost... operatic with his stories. Larger than life characters and stakes and interactions. This worked for me in his Sundering series for Warhammer Time of Legends, in part because that sort of stilted, formal, melodramatic presentation and dialogue worked well with the setting and the feel of it all. For the 40k stuff however, not so much.

 

That's why I think he's a high-level, distant summary kind of guy. If you condensed down some of his novels into fluff blurbs, I can see how they'd make great little snippets in a codex or a background section somewhere.

 

Think: "After a harrowing escape from the killing fields of the Dropsite Massacre, the Primarch Corax beseeches the Emperor for the means to recreate his Legion and continue the fight against the traitor Warmaster. Alpha Legion infiltrators, working from within the unsuspecting Raven Guard, bring the Primarch's desperate dream to ashes and alter the destiny of the Legion."

 

Or: "Lion El'Jonson pursues Konrad Curze across Imperium Secundus. The Dark Angels Primarch, aloof and detached from all others, even his erstwhile brothers, inadvertently lays the groundwork for the sundering of three Loyalist Legions from each other."

 

They make great little fluff bits, but Gav just isn't as adept at making the stories come to life as things to be experienced through and alongside the characters.

[b1soul]

I think, for me, Gav is great as a "high level blurb" sort of guy.

 

However, is execution just misses the mark for me. I find his prose perfunctory and lifeless.

 

There's something about his dialogue that never quite clicks with me

 

The other thing with his characters is that I don't really get the sense that they're driving the plot - rather the other way around.

I think you hit the nail on the head

 

His prose is very bland...like codex writing

[DaanofWar]

well, for me both goes into meh. But still they are better than utter MEH of the 'Ravenwing'

 

Well, although I disagree with some of the choices Gav made for the novels, I find it hard to dismiss an entire book as "meh" because of them. Part of reviewing a book is also remembering the bits that were enjoyable and well done. Allow me a moment to sing some praises Gav's way from my readings of Deliverance Lost and Corax

 

- Amazing descriptions/inventions of Khiavaran stealth-tech (reflex shields, whispercutters, etc). If FW ever make a whispercutter I'm auto-buying it right away.

- That moment when Corax times the warp jump out of the Istvann system precisely so that it tears apart an enemy ship in the most horrific way possible.

- I loved the moments of tension when RG ships are conducting ambushes in stealth mode and wait in silence for long periods of time while running their ships on minimal systems before launching the perfect strike.

- Void combat is generally something Gav handled very well in these books IMO.

- I loved everything about the moments in the emperor's maze. From Corax's genius to the action scenes to how he described the working of the maze.

- The descriptions of Corax's childhood, his moments with the Emperor and the liberation of Lycaeus. Satisfying to read as a RG fan and kept enough mystery to explore in the future.

- The bet between Branne and Noriz is one of my favorite moments in the Heresy.

- Branne is a great character and throughout both books he remains sympathetic and relatable.

- I studied biology and was impressed by how Gav handled Corax's work on the primarch genetics. I was looking for them, but I couldn't find any fundamental science mistakes that broke my immersion.

- The descriptions of the Raptors and their transformation were great. The story of Navar Hef was suitably heartbreaking.

- The bits where alpha legion infiltrators were experiencing the challenges of posing as raven guard were nice. "Where did you learn to use a dagger like that?" and "Wait, one of us is a captain?" were memorable scenes.

- Although Agapito's behavior in Deliverance Lost was annoying at times, his character was redeemed in Soulforge and Weregeld where he was actually pretty badass and showed some real character growth.

- Action scenes with Corax were well done. They had enough awesomeness, but never made him feel invincible or over the top. As much as I enjoy Angron bench-pressing warhounds, there is a real risk of that stuff becoming silly if you overuse it, which Gav luckily never did with Corax.

- Although the ending of Raptor was a let-down, it was partially redeemed by Navar Hef's wrap-up in Weregeld.

- The novellas do a pretty good job of showing the Raven Guard's guerilla war against the traitors in a number of interesting scenario's. Gav did a good job of choosing interesting topics for them IMO.

- Although I really disliked the events that transpired in The Grey Raven, I begrudgingly respect Gav's ability to make me feel emotionally invested in the characters and going to certain lengths to illustrate his point.

- Corax is shown well. I get the feeling that Gav wanted to show that yes, Corax is a primarch and suitably intimidating, majestic, powerful and genius, but even a primarch is fallible and needs a little help from his marines sometimes. Also that even primarchs have a breaking point and that the Heresy really threatens Corax to reach his. That's a pretty poweful statement that I'm glad I got to see from my favourite primarch.

 

All in all I'd rate Gav as a pretty damn good writer and he has my utmost respect and gratitude for handling my favourite legion so well. Don't know if another BL writer could've done it better tbh.

Edited August 2, 2017 by DaanofWar

[Gen.Steiner]

/\ That. Excellent and well said sir. Makes me want to go and re-read the Horus Heresy books just to get to Deliverance Lost!

[DarkChaplain]

Well, I *did* do a re-read and review of Deliverance Lost before going for Corax (which I'd already read before, apart from Weregeld, but staggered as the stories became available outside of limited editions), and I found that I actually liked it better upon the re-read, aware of the twists and seeing all the neat little foreshadowing and plays with the reader's expectations.

 

Gav did a pretty good job, and I still can't really wrap my head around why these books are getting so much dung from the fanbase. They have very strong themes and progress all their character arcs well. Corax especially gets a good lot better if read in the collected volume rather than scattered over years, at premium prices, where you often can't even clearly remember elements that become quite poignant in a later installment. Every piece of Corax achieved certain goals that played into the overall tragedy of Corvus Corax and his good intentions gone bad, due to arrogance and a lust for vengeance he could ill-control. But he is no worse off in his flaws than his brothers, either...

[HeritorA]

Well, I *did* do a re-read and review of Deliverance Lost before going for Corax (which I'd already read before, apart from Weregeld, but staggered as the stories became available outside of limited editions), and I found that I actually liked it better upon the re-read, aware of the twists and seeing all the neat little foreshadowing and plays with the reader's expectations.

 

Gav did a pretty good job, and I still can't really wrap my head around why these books are getting so much dung from the fanbase. They have very strong themes and progress all their character arcs well. Corax especially gets a good lot better if read in the collected volume rather than scattered over years, at premium prices, where you often can't even clearly remember elements that become quite poignant in a later installment. Every piece of Corax achieved certain goals that played into the overall tragedy of Corvus Corax and his good intentions gone bad, due to arrogance and a lust for vengeance he could ill-control. But he is no worse off in his flaws than his brothers, either...

 

Partly cause it was released after the 'great' books from Mcneil, Abnett, Bowden.

Partly cause it was less fluetnly written.

Partly cause it has less interesting moments then a lot of amazing BL books.

If we could rate HH by A/B/C class - Deliverance is C. Horus Rising/First Heretic is A - for comparison. False Gods/Fulgrim is a B.

[DarkChaplain]

I think DL had a lot of memorable moments. DaanofWar pointed out the one between Branne and Noriz, the void battles early on, and I'll also mention the mid-battle mutations of the Raptors, the tragedy of Navar Hef, the infiltration missions and the way Corax addresses his new recruits. There were a lot of strong moments in there, overall. I'd say it has struck more of a chord with me than Fulgrim or Prospero Burns (the latter especially).

[Wintermane]

I've always liked the human/warrior aspect of his characters, if not always his stories. Being a vet I always liked they at least spoke and thought like warriors. His battlefield chatter has a "real" feel to it vice the "gamer" battlefield chatter many BL writers use.

[HeritorA]

I think DL had a lot of memorable moments. DaanofWar pointed out the one between Branne and Noriz, the void battles early on, and I'll also mention the mid-battle mutations of the Raptors, the tragedy of Navar Hef, the infiltration missions and the way Corax addresses his new recruits. There were a lot of strong moments in there, overall. I'd say it has struck more of a chord with me than Fulgrim or Prospero Burns (the latter especially).

 

I think Prospero Burns should be excluded from all comparisons - cause it was the most convoluted and strange novel ever, written by the author during his truly hard life period.

 

I've always liked the human/warrior aspect of his characters, if not always his stories. Being a vet I always liked they at least spoke and thought like warriors. His battlefield chatter has a "real" feel to it vice the "gamer" battlefield chatter many BL writers use.

 

He and Abnett always investigate the stuff they are writing for.

[ChildofFang]

Rubbish to exclude a book from comparisons based on your interpretation of what occurred. It is a piece of work put out as a finished piece, delayed and out of planned sequence due to life reasons for sure but how do you know what conditions other books were written under? 

 

Seriously awesome book as well (quite possibly my favourite), I seriously doubt it is either the strangest or most convoluted novel you have ever read and if it indeed is then you are lucky not to have touched the plethora of absolute trash that has been printed over the years. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by ChildofFang

[HeritorA]

Rubbish to exclude a book from comparisons based on your interpretation of what occurred. It is a piece of work put out as a finished piece, delayed and out of planned sequence due to live reasons for sure but how do you know what conditions other books were written under? 

 

Seriously awesome book as well (quite possibly my favourite), I seriously doubt it is either the strangest or most convoluted novel you have ever read and if it indeed is then you are lucky not to have touched the plethora of absolute trash that has been printed over the years. 

Well, in your opinion. Abnett himself told a thousand time in different interview how 'hard' it was to write/rewrite and finish PB

[ChildofFang]

What I said was you don't know the conditions other books have been written under. I am going to guess that more than one book has been written under 'hard' conditions. At no time did I say it wasn't hard for him to write it. 

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, but regardless of Dan Abnett's state of mind while writing Prospero Burns...

 

...what's that got to do with Gav Thorpe's stuff?

[HeritorA]

Yeah, but regardless of Dan Abnett's state of mind while writing Prospero Burns...

 

...what's that got to do with Gav Thorpe's stuff?

Nothing. Half of the threads on BaC deteriorates into other themes very quickly.

 

So please let's get back to the dicussion of Gav Thorpe prowess.

[Gen.Steiner]

As soon as I have finished reading my current book (Boys in Zinc by Svetlana Alexievich) I'm going to dig out Last Chancers and give it another read. Then I'm going to start in on the Horus Heresy series again; because this thread has made me want to re-read Gav's work.

 

That, to me, speaks volumes of his skill as an author!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Gav made a novel about the primarch Lorgar boring...that takes genuine effort.

 

Thorpe does great fantasy novels, but his 40k novels of the last decade have been meh at best

[Gen.Steiner]

To be fair, I've not read much of his latest work; but I think a lot of the disagreement here stems, really, from subjective ideas of what makes a good 40k/WFB book. I rather like his prose style - or at least what I remember of it - so I'm looking forwards to going back over Last Chancers and all that. It'll certainly make a nice change from the appalling woes of real people's real suffering discussed in Boys in Zinc.

[HeritorA]

Sadly I can only agree withJarl Kjaran Coldheart

Last Gav novels in W30/40K are absolutely blank and boring.

His last WFB/AoS novels are a blast and joy to read.

 

For example - as I mentioned in another thread - 'Lorgar' is a great investigation into religion, zealotry, idolatry, treachery and fatherly issues. But as a W30K/HH book tis horrible.

Previous title 'Azrael' fail under the same parameters - it is a good story about how Azrael became the way he is and DA hierarchy, but absolutely horrible bolter-porn, cartoonish villains and boring plot story.

His 'Unforgiven' (last in the DA trilogy) was better only due to the 'warp/time wrapping incident' and several answers to the long list of questions.

 

Gen.Steiner

Last Chancers were a decent read for their time. Now after all this years - you would chuckle at some points while reading it. I do not say tis bad - I'm saying it is majorily outdated and it did not aged well.