Raptor modifiers do or don't stack?

[Doom Herald]

Page 175, under Modifying Characteristics states that "All modifiers are cumulative," in sentance 2 of paragraph 2.

 

I took this to mean that the increased difficulty to Moralle that Raptors impose stacks with multiple units.

 

But then the FAQ came out:

"Q. Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?

 

A. Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these models are within range."

 

So, this example does specify bonuses, but i will assume it extends to penalties aswell.

 

Now, this makes perfect sense when it comes to the Icon of despair which says models within 3" of ANY models with an Icon of Despair get a penalty. That makes perfect sense for not stacking.

 

The Raptor rules though say add 1 to the morale test of enemy models within 1" of THIS unit. Does this stack? The rules specify within 1 " of THIS unit not, 1" of a Raptor. Also, I noticed the answer to the FAQ states "model" not unit. So, if this applies to the Raptor rule, does it mean to say each model in a single unit of Raptors does not apply this effect cumulitively or does it mean multiple UNITS of Raptors do not apply this effect cumulitively?

For example: I have one unit of Raptors in combat, the enemy unit increases the morale test they have to pass by 1, another unit of my Raptors charges in. The enemy unit has not yet taken a +1 to their Morale test for being within 1" of "THIS UNIT" (per Fearsome Visage), but it has the effect of +1 to their morale test for the other unit and it is within 1" of the both Raptor units, so is it in compliance with the Fearsome Visage from both units by only taking +1 to the test?

 

If this is the case, does a unit within 3" of an Icon of Despair and 1" of a Chaos Spawn take only a total of -1 to Leadership for the effects of the Icon and Chaos Spawn since by the same reasoning, a -1 to leadership would satisfy the rules for both units.

 

This seems to be the case based on the Imperium1 FAQ for Blood Angels:

 

Q. Are the +1 Strength boosts from the Blood Chalice and Red Grail abilities cumulative, for a total of +2 Strength? A. No. It’s only +1 Strength, even if the unit is within range of both these abilities.

 

So, if modifiers dont stack, unless they specificly say they do, why place a section in the rules to say modifiers do stack? The rules haven't been Errata'd here and the FAQs only adress bonuses, so should i opperate on the assumption that penalties still stack?

 

How would you go forward with multiple Raptor units and the Morale penalty based on this?

Edited July 8, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[McGibs]

This is a weird issue that the faq didnt answer very clearly. Csm especially has a tonne of different leadership modifiers to the point of being able to actually make viable 'spooky' armies. If different leadership penalties dont stack, that really sucks all that fun synergy away.

 

Off the top of my head:

Raptors -1

Spawn -1

Icon -1

Zhufor -1

Phobos landraider -1

Butcher cannon -2

Renegade psykics -1

[Doom Herald]

Plus Furies pick off extra from units that fail and slaanesh discipline has a psychic power vs. leadership... and belakor and the bell guy from deathguard.

 

I love the idea of a morale crushing army.

 

I ask because I was planning on a Nurgle Raptor and summoned Furie army, maybe with the bell guy added in. But, if they cant stack, thats a problem. I guess i just assume the FAQ is only related to bonusses then? That is, after all, all it specifies and the rules do still say modifiers are cumulitive.

Edited July 9, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Brother Aiwass]

Don't stack if the ability is identical, otherwise, unless stated, they do stack.

 

Nurgle raptors with icon would have an effective -2 debuff.

[Commissar K.]

This is unclear as heck. AoS has a house rule of one where same named abilities do not stack but otherwise do.

 

The suggestion left by A1 is that this applies to 40K. The suggestion left by A2 is that this is not the case.

 

Rushed rules design is really a massive headache to 8th. The datasheets are nice but too much is not explained well or logially.

[Brother Aiwass]

AoS and house rules have nothing to do with this?

[Commissar K.]

AoS and house rules have nothing to do with this?

As we do not know GW's intend in this case, it could have been a help. The key subject however is:

 

 

So, if modifiers dont stack, unless they specificly say they do, why place a section in the rules to say modifiers do stack?

The rules haven't been Errata'd here and the FAQs only adress bonuses, so should i opperate on the assumption that penalties still stack?

How would you go forward with multiple Raptor units and the Morale penalty based on this?

 

A1: We don't know why this section is there now, as GW has contradicted themselves with the latest FAQ.

A2: I would discuss it with your opponent. Based on GWs FAQ.

A3: I would add the abaility, making the Morale substraction cumulative. Likewise I have played against my BA player who I still allow the Strenght bonus to be cumulative. 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Paradigm]

I'm playing it the same way as Commissar K here. I agree it seems per the book they should stack if they have a different name but the same effect. The FAQ gives a specific example of one that doesn't, but doesn't invalidate any others in my opinion. Considering so, it seems incredibly unfair to prevent an opponent from stacking even the specific case used in the FAQ.

[Azekai]

Sometimes the FAQ reads a lot more like errata. This seems to be one of those times. The 'clarification' completely changes how the plainly stated rule works.

[Cryptix]

I'd lean more to it stacking if it doesn't have a different name AND (this is important) it isn't a duplicate but better effect of another model. The reason why the Red Grail and the Sanguinary Chalice are like that is because Corbulo is an upgraded version of a Sanguinary Priest, so they weren't made with stacking in mind.

[Doom Herald]

I'd lean more to it stacking if it doesn't have a different name AND (this is important) it isn't a duplicate but better effect of another model. The reason why the Red Grail and the Sanguinary Chalice are like that is because Corbulo is an upgraded version of a Sanguinary Priest, so they weren't made with stacking in mind.

Do you mean to say different names DO stack?

 

As for the Blood Angels issue, that explains a lot. So, likely the Raptor debuff from 2 units of Raptors wont stack, but the Icon debuff and Warpspawn debuff will?