IG observations from todays game.

[Galron]

First, I dont know which crackhead said "1st turn charges are rare, you shouldnt have to worry that much about them." that guy. There is nothing rare about 1st turn charges or charges from DSing. Its not even hard. We played a 2k game, genestealer cult, might as well be nids proper. 

He had(note I dont have a clue about nid names btw)

Swarmlord

giant tentacle thing

2 of the drop pods

2 chimeras with genestealers driving(2 genestealer squads too)

15 man genestealer squad

genestealer HQ guy

2 of the big massive artillery bugs

1 FW hq bug that gave everything around it -1 to hit.

 

I fielded a combo of Elysian, scion, regular guard army

Elysian CO with plasma pistol

Vet squad 3 meltas, det charge

2 Venators with twin lascannons

2 Vultures with twin punishers

Valkyrie with missile pods

2x3 Sniper teams

 

Scion officer plasma pistol

2 Scion squads with 2 plasma

1 Scion squad with 2 melta

 

Guard CO with plasma pistol

Command squad 4 snipers

2 infantry squads with plasma and lascannons

1 infantry squad with plasma

Mortar squad

2 wyverns

Leman russ executioner and plasma cannon sponsons and lascannon

Leman russ demolisher with heavy bolters all round

 

Yeah so we set up in the angled corner(vanguard?) deployment. He finished first by a long shot. Mission was secure and hold. he put his artillery big guys and the fw hq on top of his objective. Drop pods and the 15 man squad and GS hq in reserves. His chimeras were at the deployment line. I had all my tanks with the wyverns behind a building, a mortar squad in the back corner preventing him DSing there, all three infantry squads spread out, one on the building in back corner, commander and the snipers behind them. Venators, vultures and valk along the back line.

 

First turn the genestealers, both drop pods carrying tentacle dude and swarmlord drop 9" Genestealer roll the ambush roll letting them move and charge. Drop pods were fully upgraded with strangle cannons(5 each) and rolled massive amounts of shots along with long range fire. Lost command squad, one elysian sniper squad and now that I think of it, somehow he shot my hq and killed him too. He assaulted my main building squad and a leman russ with genestealers, their hq, and the swarm lord. One drop pod and the tentacle guy charged the other LR. Steadily lost ground there.

 

Not going into the entire report. Needless to say he steadily squashed that corner despite all the indirect fire. On the other side, I ended up DSing my other sniper squad on a safe building and DSIng my scions behind his artillery dudes in plasma rapid fire range to the -1 to hit dude. So I successfully cleared that area once my melta vets joined in and his arty guys became animal instinct and unable to charge my aircraft. We called it as a draw since we pretty much swapped deployment zones and I had a good base of fire over there with all three aircraft and everyone I didnt start on the board. He had 2 chimeras, one partial GS squad,  a 2 man squad and however many in one of the chimeras, a degraded swarmlord, both drop pods and tentacle guy.

 

So one thing, not having dudes on the board is good, having guys on the board gets you charged first turn. So how do you mitigate 1st turn charges since they 'd over flamers for some reason. The only time my LRs fired the entire game was overwatch fire. Being able to drop my elysians behind his lines was key to pulling the draw since he put almost everything forward and almost lost the chimeras and probably would have the next round. I even DSd snipers because I ran out of room in my deployment zone in the beginning, should have dropped both.

 

Aside from conscripts, I refuse to use the stupid things and hate the concept, what do you do? Maybe instead LRs bring chimeras with heavy flamers? Deploy a hellhound or two forward to take the initial charge? After several games both against and with the guard, I cant see any reason not to go mech all the way with gun teams behind them. With this edition so biased towards assault armies, infantry lines are not survivable. Now granted I will be fielding more and more elysians as I build and paint them and dropping the normal guardsmen going more the the air drop thing.

Edited July 9, 2017 by WarriorFish
Swear filter dodges removed

[Otto von Bludd]

I hear you about hating Conscripts and not wanting to use them, I have a similar outlook.  I think heavy flamer scout sentinels (I give them chainblades too because why not at that price, it has allowed them to gore a few marines) are your answer here.  These guys want to be up close and personal and are going to be 9" out of your deployment zone before the game starts.  Now they may try to charge you out of your heavy flamer range, but they have a significant chance to fail that charge and if they do they are definitely getting roasted next turn.  With 6 wounds each and T5 these guys are surprisingly resilient even with a 4+ save.  I run them in units of 3. 

 

Chimeras with dual heavy flamers are also golden, there are so many potential tactics opened up by having a 10 man squad and officer riding inside:  do you block the charge with the chimera or the men?  Do you disembark the men in such a way that they cannot be charged without also dragging the chimera into combat and thus granting it an overwatch shot? Does the Chimera charge the melee unit to tie it up?  Do the men charge to tie them up, then fall back, receive orders and fire with the Chimera in support?  This just goes on and on.  They are also very resilient for a transport, think of them as a Hellhound-lite.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[Galron]

I disagree with you on the 9" charge thing. I have seen it fail once out of 7 attempts to charge me on the first turn today and I am 50/50 doing it myself. There are far too many ways to get around it. I never even got a chance to fire my tanks today.

 

I like the sentinel idea though, that has potential even over the chimera for the price but yeah I wont be fielding unmech squads anymore, that's a waste.

[WarriorFish]

I don't know who said turn 1 charges won't happen, whoever he is needs to read the rules :P Enemy armies that want to will be on top of you turn 1 and 2 if they try so now more than ever Guard have to properly manage the enemy's arrival. What's more short of the dice god's blessing you're almost sure to be going second - that's a real pain.

 

I think the best thing to do is plan for going second and treat stealing the initiative as a bonus shooting round first. That means picket squads to help protect your more valuable units as well as good spacing if possible so there can't land outside of 9" behind you. You can get an Infantry Squad with a special weapon cheap so they're a good option for that, plus less loss when you pull them back in your turn so you can begin the turkey shoot (unless your officers have nothing better to issue than Get Back in the Fight! - which is probably unlikely).

 

Flamers are good counters to charging units as they hit just as well, but your opponent will likely avoid such targets if he can unless you give him no better options which may be easier said than done. I've found Hellhounds great at running up and intercepting enemy advances, their flamer quite mean too and as they're a bit tougher than Chimeras perhaps they can better survive a turn 1 charge though I'd rather not lose their shooting.

 

It's still early days so everyone is figuring it out, but I think certain armies and builds are going to be hard. GSC have some mean rules that allow them to be really quick and there's not much you can do about that :confused:

[gomericus]

youre guard,we die standing,just need more meat for the grinder and deploy away from everything,think even grots consider us food.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

As a jump-pack heavy Blood Angels player I'm finding the 9" charge really tough to pull off. Especially now that Independent Characters are not a thing - because it's risky even trying to charge a unit in when you might leave your "IC" floating in the wind, while also no longer giving you his aura effects. Or worse, the unit fails the charge and your "IC" soldiers on into combat by himself, eating overwatch and everything else...

 

It does make a 2nd turn assault very easy though, unless you get charged first that is.

 

GS Cult may have some special bonuses though since that is sort of their thing.

[duz_]

1st turn charges are definitely a thing, all the hype leading up to the drop of 8th I feel that it was definitely mentioned.

As other have said, layering bubble wrap against vital units is critical. So is area denial, remember if you space you models correctly no one can deep strike within 9" of them. 

Having said that I failed 6, 9" charges when I tested my RG for the first time, that wasn't fun. So it won't always happen, but you will need to be prepared.

 

In addition to that, a lot of units move quicker in this edition too, so even if they don't deep strike in they can move up quick enough to attempt a charge T1. 

 

Guards weakness always has been the enemy in his lines. Fortunately now with being able to layer units, fall back and orders we do have ways to counter this.

 

Good luck in future matches! :)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

If you survive the assault, leave combat... that one unit will not be able to shoot - but everyone else will.

[Lemondish]

It it's an infantry unit, you can order them to shoot after falling back.

[Galron]

I my situation that wasnt an option. He had already shot up both shield units with his dakka pods and artillery bugs leaving the commander on his own to be shot in turn. My deployment zone was a bloodbath of my struggling to hold back the nidzilla and stealer tide. I actually whittled his 15 man ambushing squad down to two before my wyverns were in hand to hand. By that point there was nowhere to fall back to. I had a mortar squad and a tauros behind them taking up space along with the remaining LR falling back as well. I also had brave sgt and his plasma gunner free to move around, managed to take out the GS lord guy. I think I am going to concentrate on a smaller gunline of heavy weapons protected by flamer/chainsaw sentinels and maybe a flamer chimera or two unless I can find a hell hound. Then I will concentrate on my fast movers and deep striking heavy weapons teams getting into the back field.

[Otto von Bludd]

Another thing I will suggest are front line Hellhounds, I've had great experiences with these guys.  I charge THEM into combat torching as I go, ideally into multiple units.  My best charge yet was into a Landraider, and 2 squads of marines.  It was some FW Landraider that was putting out terrifying dakka, and I kept it locked up for multiple turns with this Hellhound.  Because he couldn't kill the Hellhound in assault with the marines and Raider, he committed 2 characters and an assault squad to killing it. This is how it looked before the driver, with a mad gleam in his eye, opened the internal fuel access point and tossed in his lit cigar:  http://i.imgur.com/Kz0gFRX.jpg

 

The mortal wounds that flew when that Hellhound exploded on that 4+ were glorious.

[Kontakt]

   Regretfully, normal flamers are of limited use against deep strike charging. If they deep strike to the 9 inch minimum, your flamers cannot overwatch as they have an 8 inch range. This means hotshot laspistols and hotshot lasgun rapid fire are also non options against the first turn charge. If you don't like using conscripts, sentinels are not a bad second choice. Deep strike heavy armies will cause huge problems for armies with no "screen" units. Having played scions in a few 8th edition games,  a lack of screen units or insufficient screen units is pretty much an auto loss for non deep strike armies.

 

Edit: Trying to remember where I read flamers cannot overwatch past their range.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Kontakt

[Zeller]

Funny. So far I'm finding my front line of gaurdsmen crumble just as they always have. The real game changer for me is the vehicles. Having my firepower locked up by stupid things like hormagaunts is frustrating. I then have to spend a turn pulling back and doing nothing. Not only that, the deep striking trygons and all his friends that come in then appear behind me tying up any support from the rear which leaves my front lines woefully under powered. Ergo, crumbling guardsmen. Certain weapons, namely haywire, are also extremely annoying since they deal mortal wounds...and then regular wounds. Half a tank gone immediately. On top of that the -1 to hit when walkers or tanks move utterly cripples my firepower. I just feel so...powerless to do anything. Throw in some bad RNG and you really begin to ask yourself why you even play the game when you seem to be getting boned by everything. 

 

The consolidate into melee range has also left me in a rage at GW. That is some 4th edition level bull that drains my soul. 

 

I'm finding this to be a tough edition to adapt to. The hits to vehicles in making them a monstrous creature really hasn't sat well with me. The idea of using men to bubble wrap my lines like I'm some sort of Tau player is also utter heresy. Not only does it restrict maneuver, it requires many more men. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Zeller

[Emicus]

If you dont want men (conacripts or regular troopers) to brunt charges you can't go wrong with sentinels.

 

Scout are cheaper but armoured last longer. Space 'em out so your opponent can only go for sentinels rather than the cream filling they are protecting. If they survive a charge just fall back and pew pew with your back like tanks. Bonus overwatch points for heavy flamers!

[dakkamasta]

Zeller it seems your problems are more to do with playing the game as if it is still 7th edition.

 

In my first game against deep strike heavy Blood Angels, while despite losing (there was hardly anything left on both sides), I found no trouble whatsoever covering my entire deployment zone so that there was not one spot where enemy units could land, forcing them into the mid-field which was right where I wanted them. I did not use any conscripts by the way. In fact aside from 2 MSU units of rough riders, my army was completely mechanised.

 

Our vehicles are tougher than ever. No more snap-shots, no more vehicle damage table (a lucky shot won't take a vehicle out of the game). Artillery tanks are amazing now, not only is their firepower fantastic at bringing down the big nasties, but you can use them to deny the back parts of your deployment zone for your opponent's units to arrive. 

[Otto von Bludd]

Zeller it seems your problems are more to do with playing the game as if it is still 7th edition.

 

In my first game against deep strike heavy Blood Angels, while despite losing (there was hardly anything left on both sides), I found no trouble whatsoever covering my entire deployment zone so that there was not one spot where enemy units could land, forcing them into the mid-field which was right where I wanted them. I did not use any conscripts by the way. In fact aside from 2 MSU units of rough riders, my army was completely mechanised.

 

Our vehicles are tougher than ever. No more snap-shots, no more vehicle damage table (a lucky shot won't take a vehicle out of the game). Artillery tanks are amazing now, not only is their firepower fantastic at bringing down the big nasties, but you can use them to deny the back parts of your deployment zone for your opponent's units to arrive. 

 

That is a good tactic vs most deepstriking units, but not against the Tyranid Trygons who, though I don't remember the exact rule, can come up within that 9" zone.

[dakkamasta]

Ohh that's right i completely forgot. But they can't charge that turn right? At least you get a turn to react.