=][= Unit(s) of the week: Infantry Squads =][=

[CoffeeGrunt]

As for 47 plasma squads: yes in theory, just as mathammer. But then you play a real game and realize that well, why not synergize that plasma gun with a plasma pistol. And why you are at it, why not dedicate an officer to improve 2 of thse squads, since you'll obviously want to reroll 1s when you overcharge. And then, why not field them as Cadians and add a heavy weapon, since they'll be standing still anyway? On the other hand, a 47-pt flamer squad does its job as it is, and forces your opponent to do some less than obvious choices when firing. As for the over 12" range for -1 hit armies, just wait a week and you'll see.

 

That's not a problem with Plasma, that's just the Sunk Cost Fallacy in action.

[Feral_80]

No, that's called optimizing what people like to call 'platforms'. It's the same reason why you give a plasma pistol to a Scion sergeant in a plasma scion squad. And why you always take these squads in pairs. And why you always have a Prime behind them. And why that Prime always has a rod.

 

It's a way to build units which is quite rigid actually, although effective, because it pushes you to maximize these kinds of synergy. And plasma is the king of this approach, for various reasons, on pretty much any squad you give it.

 

It's not bad per se, it's just a different thing that requires its own build. And that is also why speaking of a '47 pt plasma infantry unit' makes little sense, because on the field you'll rarely see it as such. Speed bumps, in my opinion, are a very different thing.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Feral_80

[Vel'Cona]

I think it's important to understand that all perspectives are viable, here.  Regiment blending runs the same lines as Imperium Faction Soup, meaning some will love the flexibility (for a variety of reasons) and others will consider the final product unsightly or unsportsmanlike.  However you feel about it, just remember that we're all entitled to our opinions but presenting them in a way that discourages friendly discourse is not cool  :)

 

As for which weapon is best, well that's OFC going to be a matter of opinion and tactical experience.  For my money, I don't much enjoy Flamers this edition because they're just too random for the cost; it's easier to modify or compensate for hit rolls as needed, but randomizing number of hits is problematic and harder to manipulate.  The 8" range is an issue too, because it means sometimes the primary reason to take the Flamer (Overwatch) may be denied by a lucky/boosted long charge.  Again, this is a matter of opinion and players that go Catachan can probably argue their point for days, but my experience as a dedicated Cadian (which I do not find boring, FWIW) has sculpted my opinion.

[TheShredder]

As for 47 plasma squads: yes in theory, just as mathammer. But then you play a real game and realize that well, (1) why not synergize that plasma gun with a plasma pistol. And why you are at it, (2) why not dedicate an officer to improve 2 of thse squads, since you'll obviously want to reroll 1s when you overcharge. And then, (3) why not field them as Cadians and add a heavy weapon, since they'll be standing still anyway? (4) On the other hand, a 47-pt flamer squad does its job as it is, and forces your opponent to do some less than obvious choices when firing. As for the over 12" range for -1 hit armies, just wait a week and you'll see.

 

(I added numbers to address these points in turn.)

 

1) I imagine it depends on what range you intend to engage the enemy. And how much you want to spend on an individual squad. I definitely intend to try this though, as it would be nice to have my Sergeants contribute more to the battle (especially if I'm not taking a Heavy Weapon), and I don't really like Bolters.

 

2) I tend to take those anyway. I never add their cost to the cost of the squad though.

 

3) This is the one I really disagree with. For me at least, the whole point of not taking a Heavy Weapon is to keep the squad mobile. So, no, Cadia is a terrible idea. And if I'd wanted a Heavy Weapon I'd have taken on in the first place. But I didn't so I don't.

 

(4) Couldn't you make the exact same arguments for this squad though? e.g.:

- If I'm going to be getting within 8" then I might as well take a Plasma Pistol as well.

- If I'm getting close then FRFSRF would really pull its weight. Better take an officer for them.

- If I'm using Flamers then Catachan would be perfect. Hey, I could even charge afterwards. Maybe I should include a priest and a power sword on the sergeant . . .

etc.

[NatBrannigan]

I wouldn't say mixing regiments is the "point" of the codex any more for Guard than it is for, well every other codex now. If you want to mix some Salamanders and Imperial Fists that's fine but it's not the "point" of the Space Marine Codex either. It's just another way to play and if your models look different enough why the devil not?

 

I'll be damned if I'll let some scruffy Vallhallans drive my tanks though!

 

My Scions come from a different regiment. They are the Napoleanic Green jacketed Rifles too my Praetorians Red coats. I'd have no problem running them in their own detachment then using their Doctrine. The rest of my army all look the same though so I would never use them as different regiments.

 

Anyway, it's clearly foolish to run all your troops as anything other than Mordians.

[FallenSoldiers]

I loved flamers in 7th.... now with the 9+ inch charge so popular in my meta, I can’t justfiy the auto hit -possibility- over using plasma for the ability to remove units consistently while shooting.

[Feral_80]

I won't go back as I have already stated my point. I'll just sum up that, the way I see it, plasma requires significant support to work properly (higher than their points cost per piece), and that is how it is played normally. On the other hand, flamer infantry squads don't, as they perform pretty much the same with or without buffs, especially in their main role of speed bumps. They are just there to die, while that is not the place I want my plasmas to be.

 

 

I wouldn't say mixing regiments is the "point" of the codex any more for Guard than it is for, well every other codex now. If you want to mix some Salamanders and Imperial Fists that's fine but it's not the "point" of the Space Marine Codex either. It's just another way to play and if your models look different enough why the devil not?

 

Hmm no, I am talking both fluff-wise and game-wise here. Fluff-wise, AM regiments and Marine chapters are very different concepts. Until the relatively recent Cadian focus, and sometimes even after that, AM armies have always been presented as a mixture of different regiments, especially (but not exclusively) when it came to different arms fighting together, like infantry, tanks, artillery, etc. It is one of the most fascinating aspects of Guard to have such an aesthetic variety, and the reason why so many long-time players tend to have a mixture of different regiments. And also, incidentally, the reason why many of our collections have been a bit screwed by the regiment rules, because what we tended to intermix for purely aesthetic and cosmetic reasons now has to be fielded as separate for reasons that depend on new game mechanics. 

 

On the other hand, while different Marines chapters can join forces, they do not normally fight side by side, so most Marine players tend to focus on just one chapter, and will continue to do so.

 

Now in rules terms the above makes zero difference as theoretically regiments and chapters work exactly the same way. However, in practice, the typical AM collection already tends to be varied due to the above reasons, so many players are encouraged to mix regiments in order to exploit their models. Furthermore, AM can very easily take sizeable different detachments and still get perfectly viable forces in game terms, so having a couple of regiments fighting together is very common in our meta.

 

On the other hand, Marines cannot, because being expensive in points and few in numbers means that combining two chapters risks to severely reduce the efficiency or both, so that is not something you see often.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Feral_80

[Vel'Cona]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d7/d7d124640be94149c6e6cb3ab6fd4d05331bc0a7509ab0d6c846b29fff75a591.jpg

[CoffeeGrunt]

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Plasma has "hidden costs" that Flamers arbitrarily do not. In fact, I run 2 CCs with 6 Infantry Squads, so I don't even have enough Orders to cover all my men as I consider two of those squads as marked for death in the first turn or two, nevermind the additional Weapons Teams present on the field.

 

I was taking those CCs anyway to fill HQ slots. I don't upgrade my Sergeants, and I don't run Cadians. I run Tallarn, so my man scoot up close, and blast the enemy. Previously I outflanked Devildogs and Hellhounds to support, now I'm reorienting and likely going to have Veteran Teams perform this role. 

 

However, Flamers are just too short range for my uses. If someone charges from Deep Strike, they can't fire. If I Outflank or Deep Strike, I can't fire. They also don't threaten anything my Lasguns can't.

[Withershadow]

Flamer overwatch is overrated because it only works within 8".

[olcottr]

In 6th and 7th, my Cadian Infantry Squads had Flamers and Lascannons.  The flamers were there only for Overwatch.  For 8th I switch them out for Plasma Guns because in 8th Flamers have a Range. Every rule system comes with its own challenges.  I view it as a challenge and adapt.

[Guardsman Bob]

Flamer overwatch is overrated because it only works within 8".

Anyone who intentionally makes plans to charge from outside 8” either has some really sweet charge buffs or is an idiot.

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

Flamer overwatch is overrated because it only works within 8".

Anyone who intentionally makes plans to charge from outside 8” either has some really sweet charge buffs or is an idiot.

 

Or just Deep Striked/Outflanked/Infiltrated/etc/etc in.

[Withershadow]

Yea, there's a lot of that around. Expect plenty of tunneling Nids.

[holydiver]

41.67% chance of rolling an 8 or higher on 2D6.

[Tirak]

Keep in mind the charge only needs to get you 1in from your target. An 8in charge is a 7in charge. And for example if you play nids and scrounge up the 5 points for an adrenal gland, that 7in charge is a 6in charge. Honestly, flamers are not at all impressive for what they bring to the table for their price.

[Chris521]

This plan is untested, but I was thinking of changing up my infantry squads a bit.  Previously I was going with 9 squads fully loaded with a boltgun, plasma gun, and heavy bolter. I was thinking of dropping the plasmaguns into special weapons squads instead to optimize my orders a bit. (might drop the heavy bolters too, not sure yet)  I play Cadians, so my idea is to get the most out of FRFSRF and let my re roll 1s keep the plasma guns from killing themselves ( and the commanders can order them instead if need be)  Yes they won't be tough to kill, but they aren't that expensive and I intend to have a massive number of targets to choose from. 

 

Currently my infantry base consists of:

 

9 infantry squads (bolter, maybe heavy bolter)

3 sws with plasma

3 command squads with banner and snipers.

any HWS that I feel like using

 

That gives me 120+ human shields across 15 cheap squads for 7-10 vehicles (including commissar tanks which give Ld 10 with banners).  Who likes going first anyway? 

 

 

 

On a different and more negative note, now that the conscript nerf has gone through, the usual crowd has turned their sights on our 4 point infantry.

[Chris521]

Keep in mind the charge only needs to get you 1in from your target. An 8in charge is a 7in charge. And for example if you play nids and scrounge up the 5 points for an adrenal gland, that 7in charge is a 6in charge. Honestly, flamers are not at all impressive for what they bring to the table for their price.

 You will still need to roll a 9 for the charge.  There was a lot of talk about this when 8 th came out.  You deepstrike 9 inches away or farther and a charge has to get within 1 inch so a deep striker always has to go at least 8.000000000000000001 ( you get the point) inches

Edited November 4, 2017 by Chris521

[Guardsman Bob]

 

 

Flamer overwatch is overrated because it only works within 8".

 

Anyone who intentionally makes plans to charge from outside 8” either has some really sweet charge buffs or is an idiot.

Or just Deep Striked/Outflanked/Infiltrated/etc/etc in.

Core game rules that force a distance are completely different from intemtionally staying outside 8” by choice. Edited November 4, 2017 by Guardsman Bob

[Withershadow]

Those core rules are a major part of the game, however, and how many dangerous melee units arrive, whether they are space marines or bugs.  Re-rolls to charges or any other kind of bonus on these units is significant, and lets them stay at 8.1" away from flamers for a pretty reliable charge (again considering dedicated melee unit with some kind of bonus) with no overwatch to worry about.  Anyway, people will rarely bother charging SWSs when you can just kill them with some bolt pistols.

[holydiver]

I'd like some clarification as a noob please: to avoid Flamers on overwatch, an opponent would have to charge from at least 8.01 inches, and so would have to roll at least an 8 for a successful charge? Then for Deep Strike/Outflank/Infiltrate they would have to charge from at least 9 inches, rolling at least a 9?

 

Then the odds of rolling a 9 are significantly worse: 27.78%. However for the purpose of determining the usefulness of Flamers both would be out of range. Therefore the question of whether or not to charge a unit with Flamers is really the difference between rolling an 8 and a 7, or 16.67% (1 in 6), correct?

 

In other words, I am paying 7pts to force my opponent to choose between reducing the probability of a successful charge by 16.67% or taking D6 S4 hits? Or, for the hull Heavy Flamer (off topic), 9pts for D6 S5 AP-1 hits?

[Chris521]

I'd like some clarification as a noob please: to avoid Flamers on overwatch, an opponent would have to charge from at least 8.01 inches, and so would have to roll at least an 8 for a successful charge? Then for Deep Strike/Outflank/Infiltrate they would have to charge from at least 9 inches, rolling at least a 9?

 

looks correct to me

 

 

Personally, now that I'm moving around my plasmas, I may give a few of my squads flamers and put those squads up front. Even if they don't directly make their points back, I feel like 21 points for some short range charge deterrence isn't the worst deal in the world.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Chris521

[Guardsman Bob]

Those core rules are a major part of the game, however, and how many dangerous melee units arrive, whether they are space marines or bugs.  Re-rolls to charges or any other kind of bonus on these units is significant, and lets them stay at 8.1" away from flamers for a pretty reliable charge (again considering dedicated melee unit with some kind of bonus) with no overwatch to worry about.  Anyway, people will rarely bother charging SWSs when you can just kill them with some bolt pistols.

Yep I eluded to the whole exceptions that prove the rule thing.

 

In general having to roll a 8 is far from a safe bet. It’s worse than a coin flip for the vast majority of charge situations. With the league I’m currently in not a single charge (of my battles) has had any bonus to distance. There is a kid running Nids out there but he needs to climb to my bracket (or the group needs open lots again and give it up chance) before we can even match up.

 

Since I’m keeping around 12” with Infantry Squads charges are always at the forefront of tactics. For some sick reason over the last three weeks it has often been so my units can do the charging. Or a trap to heroically intervene and use The Blade of Conquest on their turn.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, you can quite easily get +1 to Charges with rerolls as Nids. Orks also get a reroll.

[duz_]

Hrmm looks like were straying from the topic of Infantry Squads.

Lets get back on topic.

 

I like the numbers of Chris521 list.

 

Personally since 8th dropped I've always liked the utility and fluff regular squads have offered vs conscripts. Also their new price point. I do hope the hyper competitive crowd dont force them back up to 5pts a model. That plus the weapon upgrade of costs 7th is what killed them.