=][= Unit(s) of the week: Infantry Squads =][=

[FallenSoldiers]

I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the ability to keep a 10 man Catachan squad in cover (usually on an objective). If I really need them to survive I throw the “Take Cover!” Stratagem on them for a 3+ save, (2+ if I really wanna be ridiculous and use psychic barrier too). It’s a solid way to have a decent stubborn unit. If they get charged I’ll use the Deadly Traps stratagem too.

 

Disclaimer: I love to spend CP. with relics and WL traits I consistently spend 50% more CP than I start with.

[TheShredder]

Hrmm looks like were straying from the topic of Infantry Squads.

Lets get back on topic.

 

I like the numbers of Chris521 list.

 

Personally since 8th dropped I've always liked the utility and fluff regular squads have offered vs conscripts. Also their new price point. I do hope the hyper competitive crowd dont force them back up to 5pts a model. That plus the weapon upgrade of costs 7th is what killed them.

 

 

I agree entirely about the price of Infantry. In spite of complaints, I think 4pts per model is a good place for them. And, with Infantry finally being useful again, I really don't want that to change.

 

 

That said, I don't think the price tag was what killed them in 7th (though it probably didn't help). I think what killed them in 7th was:

- Escalation of defence. Try calculating how many lasgun shots it took to down a Necron Wraith in a Decurion with RPs. And that was one of the things that could be hurt at all. With the addition of super heavies and the like, basic weapons were all but worthless.

- What's more, even our heavy weapons like Lascannons, Meltas and Plasma were pretty worthless by the end. 

- An abundance of cheap large-blast and torrent-flamer weapons. Most armies could sweep whole platoons of guardsmen off the table without breaking a sweat.

- Melee. "Don't you dare shoot that Wraithknight, lieutenant! You might hit the single guardsman who barely reaches its shins!"

- General lack of mobility. Especially compared to the other stuff that was around at the time - like Scatter Bikes with their insane movement, turbo-boost and JSJ, and super heavies that could all inexplicably move 12" in spite of being the size and weight of a tower-block. 

 

Here's a visual example of what it was like to play Infantry IG in 7th:

https://youtu.be/8fVNtHQ1tTQ?t=46

[Halfpint100]

I doubt they will be. Guard evaporate when shot at (better than 7th though!) I always felt like 5 points in 7th was too much

[duz_]

Here's a visual example of what it was like to play Infantry IG in 7th:

Well yes I exaggerate a bit. ;)

Not to mention prevalence of Ap5+ as a minimum and taking casualties from the front.

 

Haha yes that is exactly how I would play 7th and why so many of my Mordians are chipped. :( which is also why I'm going to back to bringing up their painting standard and varnishing them.

[TheShredder]

Haha yes that is exactly how I would play 7th and why so many of my Mordians are chipped. which is also why I'm going to back to bringing up their painting standard and varnishing them.

 

There would certainly be something amusing about turning up to a game with a dustpan and brush to remove models. 

 

Sorry to hear about your models getting damaged though,

 

 

I doubt they will be. Guard evaporate when shot at (better than 7th though!) I always felt like 5 points in 7th was too much

 

I think 5pts was alright in 5th - back when marines were 17-18pts per model. However, with them coming down to 12pts, I think IG infantry going down to 4pts was reasonable.

[Withershadow]

I'd like some clarification as a noob please: to avoid Flamers on overwatch, an opponent would have to charge from at least 8.01 inches, and so would have to roll at least an 8 for a successful charge? Then for Deep Strike/Outflank/Infiltrate they would have to charge from at least 9 inches, rolling at least a 9?

Then the odds of rolling a 9 are significantly worse: 27.78%. However for the purpose of determining the usefulness of Flamers both would be out of range. Therefore the question of whether or not to charge a unit with Flamers is really the difference between rolling an 8 and a 7, or 16.67% (1 in 6), correct?

In other words, I am paying 7pts to force my opponent to choose between reducing the probability of a successful charge by 16.67% or taking D6 S4 hits? Or, for the hull Heavy Flamer (off topic), 9pts for D6 S5 AP-1 hits?

No one is deterred by a single flamer, we are talking about squads with 3+. Hull heavy flamers are 17, discounting the loss of the hbolter is disingenuous.

[Tirak]

Discounting the price of the cheapest weapon is stock and trade for identifying true pointscost.

[Brother Talarian]

Infantry squads are great. They're expendable but can also dmg anything. With orders they're incredible. You can have them move and advance through cover, grab objectives, charge in the name of the emperor. Having a ton of infantry also looks cool. Doesn't matter what you equip them with, they're so cheap, do it all, have fun

[Guardsman Bob]

Also their new price point. I do hope the hyper competitive crowd dont force them back up to 5pts a model. That plus the weapon upgrade of costs 7th is what killed them.

In 7th they did price hike? Did this cost increase hit any other armies? Seriously did the Devs lose their collective minds or was there some kind of explanation?

[Altasmurf]

Eh I guess I'm one of the few guard players who feels 4 points is to cheap. I wouldn't have a problem paying 5 points for guardsmen. 4 was fine before doctrines, now I feel 5 would be more balanced.

 

I am however super happy that the humble infantry squad is back in style. Not since IG 3.5 codex have infantry been so useful. They fill so many roles in my army; road block, objective grabbing, distraction, counter assault. I feel they are one if our most versatile units.

[Withershadow]

Discounting the price of the cheapest weapon is stock and trade for identifying true pointscost.

It's a dumb way, then, because the base cost of the vehicle does not include the base equipment, and by just considering the cost of the weapon you fail to consider the opportunity cost of the weapon you gave up. 

[Tirak]

A dumb way? Hardly, it gives you a better idea of how much the heavier weapons actually cost, I don't see at all how you 'fail to consider the opportunity cost' of the weapon by viewing how much the other weapon actually costs when compared to the base cost of the vehicle, which does indeed include the cost of the weakest weapon unless it says you don't need to take one.

[TheShredder]

Eh I guess I'm one of the few guard players who feels 4 points is to cheap. I wouldn't have a problem paying 5 points for guardsmen. 4 was fine before doctrines, now I feel 5 would be more balanced.

 

Do bear in mind that pushing up the price of Guardsmen will also almost certainly push up the price of all our other Infantry as well.

[Mitchverr]

Eh I guess I'm one of the few guard players who feels 4 points is to cheap. I wouldn't have a problem paying 5 points for guardsmen. 4 was fine before doctrines, now I feel 5 would be more balanced.

 

I am however super happy that the humble infantry squad is back in style. Not since IG 3.5 codex have infantry been so useful. They fill so many roles in my army; road block, objective grabbing, distraction, counter assault. I feel they are one if our most versatile units.

 

If you really want to pay 5 per model, you can play elysians/dkk armies, which have that ^^. Though most things with reguards to elysians I see say that 5 points is too much for the basic infantry.

 

But yeah, if generic guard go up a point, the "better" stuff will also likely suffer an extra point per model, which in many cases would overcost them (eg veterans i think would cost too much at that point, the fw infantry would all cost too much a that point and so on). I would rather not see that coming up because as is its hard to bring enough infantry as the dkk without stripping them of all their equipment and not bringing heavy infantry, dont much fancy paying 60/90/100 points for dkk infantry/engineers/grenadiers respectively lol.

[TheShredder]

Oh, something else I'm curious about - how much support do you guys give your Infantry Squads?

 

Do you take enough Company Commanders to give most of them orders, or are they largely on their own?

[Altasmurf]

Sorry I actually just meant only the infantry squad being bumped and not other units. Even if vets were 6 people would still use infantry at 5. That's the beauty of how they pointed out everything separately this edition is that they can tweak one unit without changing other units.

 

But they're 4 and I will happily pay that

Edited November 5, 2017 by Altasmurf

[TheShredder]

Sorry I actually just meant only the infantry squad being bumped and not other units. 

 

Yeah, but what we're saying is that it doesn't work like that. If Infantry Squads go up in price, then Veterans and such will almost certainly get a price hike as well.

[Altasmurf]

 

Yeah, but what we're saying is that it doesn't work like that. If Infantry Squads go up in price, then Veterans and such will almost certainly get a price hike as well.

I actually think it can work like that. You can change just infantry squads without changing vets. Just like any unit in the sec you can change it without changing other units.

[TheShredder]

I disagree - our Infantry is too close together price-wise and too closely linked. Loot at it this way: Currently Infantry Squads are valued at 4pts per model. Ratlings are valued at 1pt more than Infantry squads (5pts), and Veterans are valued at 1pt more than Ratlings or 2pts more than basic Infantry (6pts).

 

If Infantry Squads go to 5pts, then it stands to reason that Ratlings must go up 1pt as well (since they're valued as being worth 1pt more than basic infantry). Then, if Veterans are valued at 2pts more than Infantry, they'll also have to go up to 7pts to maintain the difference (which will obviously also drive up the cost of Command Squads). It's likely that Scions will also go up in cost to maintain the difference between Veterans. 

 

Moreover, much of our Infantry is basically the same models in different slots. So increasing the cost of Infantry will automatically push up the cost of SWSs, HWSs etc. regardless of whether anything else changes.  

[CoffeeGrunt]

Plus I don't think Infantry Squads are particularly nasty anyway. They're fair for cost. If your argument is that they become OP with support and special weapons, then cost amendments to said support and special weapons is all that is needed.

 

Anyway

 

Re: how much support do we give our Infantry? I tend to take 6 Infantry Squads and two Company Commanders to form my core, along with a Primaris Psyker. The two spare squads are basically there for redundancy as I'd rather have squads without Orders than spare CCs with nothing to Order. My Warlord is typically one of these CCs. They operate as the main bulk of my advance or defence, depending on my opposition, and obviously have the backing of Heavy Weapons Squads, tanks and artillery to see them through. Being Tallarn, I also have outflanking weapons teams to deal with particularly nasty threats wherever they are.

[Halfpint100]

I generally do company commander for 3 squads of orders

[Withershadow]

A dumb way? Hardly, it gives you a better idea of how much the heavier weapons actually cost, I don't see at all how you 'fail to consider the opportunity cost' of the weapon by viewing how much the other weapon actually costs when compared to the base cost of the vehicle, which does indeed include the cost of the weakest weapon unless it says you don't need to take one.

What? The base cost listed in the Codex DOES NOT include any wargear, including the default. A chimera is 75 points with NO guns, you can't add a heavy flamer for 9 points to it. Yes, it is a dumb way because it disregards the actual point costs, opportunity costs of different weapons, and apparently the rules too.

[duz_]

 

A dumb way? Hardly, it gives you a better idea of how much the heavier weapons actually cost, I don't see at all how you 'fail to consider the opportunity cost' of the weapon by viewing how much the other weapon actually costs when compared to the base cost of the vehicle, which does indeed include the cost of the weakest weapon unless it says you don't need to take one.

What? The base cost listed in the Codex DOES NOT include any wargear, including the default. A chimera is 75 points with NO guns, you can't add a heavy flamer for 9 points to it. Yes, it is a dumb way because it disregards the actual point costs, opportunity costs of different weapons, and apparently the rules too.

=][= This conversation can move elsewhere if it needs to be continued at all. =][=

[Halfpint100]

I am just glad the humble infantry squad has a use again. Speedbumb, dakka base, fast response unit, short, mid, long range. All have uses 

[TheShredder]

If you're not using Heavy Weapons, what Doctrines do you think are best for running large numbers of Infantry Squads?