Learning to not play Guilliman?

[Bmseifer]

So far in 8th I've included G-man in all of the 4 games I've played. He's been a deciding factor for winning the first three.

 

Now, yesterday, I played against a Death Guard army using a very low model count elite army at 2k points using ultramarines and IG. I Had:

 

Guilliman

Terminus Ultra

Shadowsword

 

Tempestor Prime

Scions with plasma

Astropath

Wyvern

LR Crusader

Centurions w Grav

 

With Guilliman it feels like my offensive power is doubled (haven't run the numbers) and when I lost him end of T2 my whole army crumbled. It still was a tight game and I conceded T4.

 

Now his bubble is so good, he's a real beatstick in cc and can even land some decisive hits in shooting. He even has a 75% chance to come back when killed (using CP). He's also a bullet magnet and can take a fair bit of punishment.

What I did notice after some bad assault positioning though is that he is very sensitive to mortal wounds. He managed to get smite cast on him by three different sorcerers and finally succumbed from an assault by Be'lakor

 

My big question now, is as follows: Is there any ultra or ultra/IG army when it's not worth taking him? I don't want to rely on him in every single game

[Freman Bloodglaive]

He strikes me as extremely good value, therefore extremely easy to become a crutch, and as you noticed when he goes so does your army. He's also, as you note, vulnerable to mortal wounds (as everything is) and that's why they exist, to ensure that however powerful the model, something can kill it.

 

I'd say the only way to learn not to rely on him is to play without him. Try games where the majority of your points goes into boys, with only a smattering of characters for support.

[Prot]

Honestly this is why I hardly use him. He can take nearly any mediocre army list and bad dice and turn it into a valid, competitive option.

 

I think if you go with a speedy list, flyers, termies, Inceptors, etc, then he becomes less useful and that's the area I pull my units from when trying to play competitive without him. I have used him, but he is exceptional at what he does. The bigger you blob up with firepower, the better he becomes. On a side note I've also found it to be incredibly boring. Ironically he can remove a lot of strategy from the game and becomes a sort of pseudo deathstar. 

[Captain Idaho]

I don't like to clump and against some enemies the capacity to spread out is desirable. Guilliman's abilities encourage clumping somewhat.

 

That's probably the weakest reason to not take a model but I couldn't think of anything else!

 

Aside from that, I do appreciate shaving points. My Cataphractii Terminators and Captain kill most targets anyway, throwing Guilliman into that mix doesn't much improve the situation.

[Bmseifer]

Going speedy sound like a plan. My idea of combining IG and Ultra marines is having the IG as the core and using Ultra marines as an elite, fast and hard striking force to do some of the heavy lifting.

 

So bringing some deep striking terminators and maybe a couple of flyers would remove the need/benefit of taking him

[Prot]

As a side note I do think Calgar is a very valid alternative if you feel you've been leaning too hard on Guilliman. He is the counter to Abaddon. If you check out competitive Chaos, there's nothing wrong with Abe and Ultra has far better advantage of his mini-aura... Centurions are fantastic with the aura. Calgar is no slouch in CC either. It's just about a 100 points difference if I recall but that is nearly two squads of scouts getting most of your troops (which infiltrate) out of the way. 

[Pr3Mu5]

As a side note I do think Calgar is a very valid alternative if you feel you've been leaning too hard on Guilliman. He is the counter to Abaddon. If you check out competitive Chaos, there's nothing wrong with Abe and Ultra has far better advantage of his mini-aura... Centurions are fantastic with the aura. Calgar is no slouch in CC either. It's just about a 100 points difference if I recall but that is nearly two squads of scouts getting most of your troops (which infiltrate) out of the way.

 

This.

 

I have only used Guilliman once since 8th dropped but used Calgar in almost every list. Coincidentally the one time I did use Guilliman it was with Calgar, both accompanied by Terminators getting into combat wasn't fun for my opponent as I could engage and destroy 3/4 units a turn and pin him right in his deployment zone early on.

 

The reason I've hardly used Guilliman though is for exactly but the reasons outlined above in that he is so good that as soon as he's killed there's not a lot of Ultramarines left to fight a battle. At 110 points less I really feel Calgar is amazing as a buff character and a CC beast.

 

Building on what's been said above though I'd definitely agree with some of the other points about deep striking terminators. I've experimented with two and three units with Calgar all deep striking and attempting charges turn one and even though you're not going to get them all in it seems to put the opponent so far on the back foot it can be a real boost.

 

Im yet to use Tigurius or Sicarius yet this edition. Wondering has anyone got any pointers from their use?

[Brother Captain Ed]

I just can't stay away from him. Even if he wasn't a deadly combatant, his bubble is just so good that without things like doctrines or relics to replicate it I'm having a hard time leaving it at home. Not to mention the hours and hours spent painting him...

 

I understand why people may not want to drop him every single time. And I certainly understand why people wouldn't want to see him across the table every single time. But he's just head and shoulders above the Ultramarine and generic commanders. At 1500+ you can bet he's coming out to play...

 

EDIT: By the way...is there ever a reason to use the Hand of Dominion over the Emperor's Sword? I haven't run across it if so.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Brother Captain Ed

[Bmseifer]

Haven't done the math but: if we ignore the ap which the sword also is superior, vs higher T targets the hand can get 1/6th added chance to hit but at the same time loose 1/6th chance to inflict at least 1 mortal wound.

 

So with my logic the sword does equal or more wounds vs any T target with also one better ap

 

Edit. For T9-T11 the Hand actually beats the sword by 2. 3+ vs 5+

Edited July 12, 2017 by Bmseifer

[Captain Idaho]

Wounding on a 2+ is nice.

 

Still, Mortal wounds...

 

That's my position ;)

Edited July 12, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

With Guilliman you still need a well balanced list imo.

 

He'll need troops in support. I think a small model elite army wouldn't work as well because a single unit loss has such an impact.

 

As for writing a list without him,it's not so hard.

I've run Calgar and he's pretty good. A Primaris ancient also provides a similar effect to Guilliman.

 

Another Great punchy HQ is the Chaplain Dreadnought :-)

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm trying to build an all-Primaris army and Bobby G would fit fine In there - especially as he's a LoW and doesn't take up an HQ slot. I'd love to use Calgar but he's not, of course, Primaris.  I hadn't really considered the Ancient buff as I'm trying to figure out where I'd position him for best effect.  But I could definitely fit it in with the org, since so far I was just going Captain (haven't decided between Tacticus and Gravis) and 2 Lieutenants (which take one slot for the pair) in my Battalion. 

[Frater Cornelius]

UM can do fine wirhout with around 2 Lieutenants, a Captain and the re-rolls with Scions of Gman and the Dread re-roll Stratagem. But man, those re-rolls are value. But look at it that way, you will have more points to spare for other stuff, allowing for more strategies.

[Stoic Raptor]

Oh, for sure.  With a Battalion, you'll start with 6CP, get 2 of them back on average, and then possibly get 1 more back from spending those two.  It works out to more like almost 50% than 33% because you still get to roll when spending the refunded CPs too.

 

With G-Man, it's even sicker.  Start with 9, get ~3 back, spend those, get ~1 back... 13 CP for a Battalion to spend.  That's a lot of Stratagems you can play - and you'll seldom need them for re-rolls! 

[Brother Captain Ed]

I don't know, guys....

 

I defended Konor again today.  2k points.  Guilliman and a librarian were the only models left standing (and 1 and 3 wounds, respectively).  Frankly, I do not see how I could possibly have won without him.  Admittedly, I was facing a Hellforged Leviathan and had nothing that could even come close to such dakka, but still...  There just isn't 360 points in any combination that I can see in our codex that can put on the pressure or take your bacon out of the fire.

I'm stuck. 

[Frater Cornelius]

You can not really judge a Guilliman list the same, just without him. Firstly, you would have a Captain and Lieutenant and your list will look differently because you will have plenty extra points and possibly some different units.

[Prot]

I don't know, guys....

 

I defended Konor again today.  2k points.  Guilliman and a librarian were the only models left standing (and 1 and 3 wounds, respectively).  Frankly, I do not see how I could possibly have won without him.  Admittedly, I was facing a Hellforged Leviathan and had nothing that could even come close to such dakka, but still...  There just isn't 360 points in any combination that I can see in our codex that can put on the pressure or take your bacon out of the fire.

 

I'm stuck. 

 

Ed! Are you saying that creating a slightly different list that there's no way you could duplicate your results (or better them)?

 

I know people hate hearing this but some of the Forgeworld stuff continues to put the balance in a game a bit sideways. (Not all units but there are outliners that continue to fall off their radar). The Leviathan is going to make a lot of people question some life decisions.

 

How was the Leviathan armed? Did you truly maximize Guilliman's aura?

 

 

 

 

You can not really judge a Guilliman list the same, just without him. Firstly, you would have a Captain and Lieutenant and your list will look differently because you will have plenty extra points and possibly some different units.

 

 

I think this is essentially true. I mean maximizing Guilliman's aura typically looks like a big block of shooty stuff that can prevent him from getting targeted too easily, 

 

A non-Guilliman list is likely using faster units, perhaps flyers, perhaps more deep striking, even a Knight? I would think against a Leviathan that the Terminus Ultima Landraider would be a beast. 

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

Ed! Are you saying that creating a slightly different list that there's no way you could duplicate your results (or better them)?

 

Exactly.

 

 

How was the Leviathan armed? Did you truly maximize Guilliman's aura?

 

The Leviathan had a Siege Drill and a Butcher Cannon Whatever-It-Is, plus a handful of smaller flamers and meltas.  It could have been worse.  But it still accounted for 3/4s of my army (though this is partially due to the tactical decision to ignore it in favor of easier targets).  Basically, the firepower capable of armor busting (and Guilliman) was directed at the Alpha Legion parking lot that formed when the land raider and rhinos became tangled up in some terrain.  When the entirety of a 2k point army gets mired in one place (minus the Leviathan and some raptors that got swatted), you unleash Guilliman on them.  I may have tarried too long eliminating survivors, but the Leviathan exploited his ability to bully the non-tank hunting parts of my army well. 

 

As for Guilliman's aura, it was barely a consideration.  His Honor Guard, a librarian, ven dread, and five Intercessors were all that went forward with him.  So, no, I didn't maximize it.  But, I feel that only under scores my point.  He wasn't the thumb on the scale that kept my army working...he pretty much did all the work in army.  Even sprinting back to my deployment zone to kill the Leviathan just as it finished butchering my backfield. 

 

 

 

 "You can not really judge a Guilliman list the same, just without him. Firstly, you would have a Captain and Lieutenant and your list will look differently because you will have plenty extra points and possibly some different units."

 

I think this is essentially true. I mean maximizing Guilliman's aura typically looks like a big block of shooty stuff that can prevent him from getting targeted too easily,

A non-Guilliman list is likely using faster units, perhaps flyers, perhaps more deep striking, even a Knight? I would think against a Leviathan that the Terminus Ultima Landraider would be a beast.

 

Perhaps this is the issue.  I used to have a company sized task force, but I sold virtually all of it in a move several years back.  Right now I have Guilliman, Calgar, Cato, a librarian, a couple tac squads, the DI box, a dread, and a Stormraven.  Oh and two drops pods that I just can't use anymore.  I scoured my bits box and I have come up with 7 kitbashed Sternguard (6 naked, 1 heavy flamer) and a min Devastator squad (3 MLs, 1 Plasma Cannon). 

 

Telion and his scouts: Gone.  Chronus and his predator squadron: Gone.  Half a company of terminators and the holy land raiders that carried them: Gone.  Half a company's worth of Rhinos and Razorbacks: Gone.

 

So it's pretty meager.  I really lack most of the power pieces of the current state of the new edition. 

 

And that's ok.  I'm not super competitive and I'm certainly not trying to say "You guys just don't get it."  I fully recognize the limitations of my collection and the guy piloting it.  ;)  My lists are pretty soft.

 

So, perhaps the issue is that I just don't realize the difference because I've never played much else.  I have a weak list that relies on him to get through, so I've developed a crutch.  But, that said, I don't see how taking Guilliman out of almost ANY list does anything but worsen it.  Mega Reroll: The Aura is the best turd polisher in Warhammer.  Everything is better just by standing near him.  Also, he can break land raiders over his knee.  No one can climb on board and take your fat out of the fire like Guilliman. 

 

I don't really know how to make it much different.

[Ishagu]

Wow, why did you get rid of all those units??

[Hopper21]

 

 

 

Ed! Are you saying that creating a slightly different list that there's no way you could duplicate your results (or better them)?

Exactly.

How was the Leviathan armed? Did you truly maximize Guilliman's aura?

The Leviathan had a Siege Drill and a Butcher Cannon Whatever-It-Is, plus a handful of smaller flamers and meltas. It could have been worse. But it still accounted for 3/4s of my army (though this is partially due to the tactical decision to ignore it in favor of easier targets). Basically, the firepower capable of armor busting (and Guilliman) was directed at the Alpha Legion parking lot that formed when the land raider and rhinos became tangled up in some terrain. When the entirety of a 2k point army gets mired in one place (minus the Leviathan and some raptors that got swatted), you unleash Guilliman on them. I may have tarried too long eliminating survivors, but the Leviathan exploited his ability to bully the non-tank hunting parts of my army well.

 

As for Guilliman's aura, it was barely a consideration. His Honor Guard, a librarian, ven dread, and five Intercessors were all that went forward with him. So, no, I didn't maximize it. But, I feel that only under scores my point. He wasn't the thumb on the scale that kept my army working...he pretty much did all the work in army. Even sprinting back to my deployment zone to kill the Leviathan just as it finished butchering my backfield.

"You can not really judge a Guilliman list the same, just without him. Firstly, you would have a Captain and Lieutenant and your list will look differently because you will have plenty extra points and possibly some different units."

I think this is essentially true. I mean maximizing Guilliman's aura typically looks like a big block of shooty stuff that can prevent him from getting targeted too easily,

A non-Guilliman list is likely using faster units, perhaps flyers, perhaps more deep striking, even a Knight? I would think against a Leviathan that the Terminus Ultima Landraider would be a beast.

Perhaps this is the issue. I used to have a company sized task force, but I sold virtually all of it in a move several years back. Right now I have Guilliman, Calgar, Cato, a librarian, a couple tac squads, the DI box, a dread, and a Stormraven. Oh and two drops pods that I just can't use anymore. I scoured my bits box and I have come up with 7 kitbashed Sternguard (6 naked, 1 heavy flamer) and a min Devastator squad (3 MLs, 1 Plasma Cannon).

 

Telion and his scouts: Gone. Chronus and his predator squadron: Gone. Half a company of terminators and the holy land raiders that carried them: Gone. Half a company's worth of Rhinos and Razorbacks: Gone.

 

So it's pretty meager. I really lack most of the power pieces of the current state of the new edition.

 

And that's ok. I'm not super competitive and I'm certainly not trying to say "You guys just don't get it." I fully recognize the limitations of my collection and the guy piloting it. ;) My lists are pretty soft.

 

So, perhaps the issue is that I just don't realize the difference because I've never played much else. I have a weak list that relies on him to get through, so I've developed a crutch. But, that said, I don't see how taking Guilliman out of almost ANY list does anything but worsen it. Mega Reroll: The Aura is the best turd polisher in Warhammer. Everything is better just by standing near him. Also, he can break land raiders over his knee. No one can climb on board and take your fat out of the fire like Guilliman.

 

I don't really know how to make it much different.

Ahmen brother im right with you! Im new back and my biggest draw to smurfs was gman. Being able to field a freaking primarch is one of the coolest things (why enjoyed 30k so much)

 

Again my list collection isn't particularly strong but I'm starting to get bored of losing I've lost a lot....but I'm having fun losing. Sometimes I feel when I play gman and he dies on the battlefield I've let the imperium down.....:-D

Edited August 17, 2017 by Hopper21

[Frater Cornelius]

Here are two sample lists with and without Guilliman.

 

With GM:

Hidden Content

Guilliman

Chronus

Primaris Librarian - Sword, Tome

 

Ironclad - Hurricane, HF, Chainfist

Redemptor - Plasma, dakka

 

5 Scouts - Bolters

5 Scouts - Bolters, HB

10 Intercessors - 1 AGL

 

5 Hellblasters - Rapid Fire

Predator -  Quadlas, SB

 

Repulsor - TLC, rest is dakka

 

1850 - 9CP

 

Without GM:

Hidden Content

Gravis Captain - Halo

Lieutenant

Chronus

 

Ironclad - Hurricane, HF, Chainfist, 2 HKM

Redemptor - Plasma, Dakka

10 Reavers - Hooks, Blades

 

5 Scouts - Bolters, HB

5 Scouts - Bolters, HB

10 Intercessors - 2 AGL

 

6 Hellblasters - Rapid Fire

Predator - Quad Las, HK

 

Repulsor - TLC, dakka

 

1850 - 7CP

 

Definitely more dudes and more gear without Guilliman. Overall, simply more comfortable lists. Can the extra stuff outperform the Guilliman re-rolls? Hard to say, as there are more factors to having more units and wargear than pure output. I guess I would need to try it and see.

[Prot]

I just really stopped using Guilliman fir my last ..... I'm going to guess. 10 or so games?

 

I really believe you get more flexibility especially in Maelstrom without him. When I take him out I do just fine. Perhaps his greatest asset is he protects the very builds that he promotes by simply being a good beat stick.

 

To be truly dynamic with Ultra you need units that just dont really benefit from him.

 

My problem has become an addiction to cool characters like Primaris Apothecary, or LTs, or Ancient, techmarines, etc. This whole small army concept very easily starts to work against you eventually.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Fully cognizant of previous disclaimer that perhaps my collection just doesn't allow me to see outside the Guilliman box, I played in a tournament today.  I went 3-0 but we didn't go enough rounds to have a clear winner, and I finished second on victory points.

 

Here's a (fast) run down.  Let's see if a theme is apparent.

 

My list:

Guilliman

Captain w/ Relic Blade, Sanctic Halo

Tigurius

Intercessors x2

Min Tac Squad

Aggressors

Tyranic War Vets

Ven Dread

Honor Guard

Hellblasters

Devastators (3MLs, 1 Plasma Cannon)

Stormraven

 

Game 1 vs Orks: Good list, but lots of boyz on foot, and only a single battlewagon and trukk.  Dude did have the teleporter bomber thing.  He made the mistake of loading the lootas and the nobs in the battlewagon.  My stormraven and devs were able to wreck the battlewagon and it exploded.  Bad times for the greenskins.  But, the heroes of the fight were the Aggressors.  Guilliman stood there and provided moral support while the HG body blocked for them.  With the Aggressors firmly planted in Guilliman's aura, they were picking up 10-15 at a time.  When the (much reduced) boyz did get there, Guilliman heroically intervened and it was pretty much over.  Win via table. 

 

Guilliman's contribution: Aggressors and Devastators in his aura, personally killed a bunch of boyz and support staff.

 

Game 2 vs Grey Knights:  Not a very optimal list.  Grandmaster in a dreadknight, LR Crusader, Paladins, and a bunch of deep striking five man squads.  It was a corners deployment and he deployed the LRC all the way up.  Again, the devs and the Stormraven were able to wreck the big vehicle, but I was able to get the stormraven in Guilliman's bubble this time.  Most of my shooting bounced off the paladins though.  He brought all his squads down, but his revenge was only smiting the Aggressors away and killing some Devastators.  Furthermore, the Hellblasters were alerted to the DK's arrival via Auspex Scan and hosed him down pretty good (again in the Guilliman's aura).  He then failed almost all his charges, but one near the captain, who was delighted to be in combat with MEQ's and wiped them.

 

The next turn saw Guilliman and the Ven Dread put down the paladins, warlord, and two strike squads.  The rest of the army (now firmly out of the bubble) accounted for a few wounds and nothing else.  He conceded with only scattered strike squad remnants on the table.

 

Guilliman's contribution: Pretty much everything.  The only notable fight without him or a model in his bubble was carried by the captain and his Devastator bros.

 

Game 3 vs Super Heavy IG: A super heavy list.  2 knights, a Stormlord, 3 squads of plasma'd out Scions.  I was able to seize the initiative, but he made pretty much every 5++ save.  So, it only cost him 5 wounds or so.  Not bad really.  Scions came down and were greeted by Devastators with an Auspex Scan.  A truly amazing stratagem in Guilliman's bubble.  Anyway, it was the last game and I think we were both tired.  There was a lot of "Oh, wait, sorry, no don't take those wounds (etc)" as we forgot or misapplied rules.  But his shooting wasn't enough to stop the angry Primarch and his Honor Guard who wrecked all three superheavies, a Scion squad, and their officers.  Win via table.  The stormraven did lots of work outside the bubble and provided weakened targets for Guilliman to triumph over.   Tigurius and his special Hard to Hit ability did a lot of work here too. 

 

Guilliman's contribution: Three (weakened) superheavies and solid bubble work in T1.

 

So...perhaps I'm dense.  But I do not believe I could have won those games without him.  Rerolling hits is great.  But rerolling wounds is Boss Hog.  Five up wounds can really rack up when you get rerolls.  Plus he is so killy and so tanky.  He personally accounted for 25-30% of points killed today.  If you add kills made by units in his bubble that number probably goes to 75-80%.  Maybe the crutch is too deep already, but I don't see how I could make these models work without him. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I just really stopped using Guilliman fir my last ..... I'm going to guess. 10 or so games?

 

I really believe you get more flexibility especially in Maelstrom without him. When I take him out I do just fine. Perhaps his greatest asset is he protects the very builds that he promotes by simply being a good beat stick.

 

To be truly dynamic with Ultra you need units that just dont really benefit from him.

 

My problem has become an addiction to cool characters like Primaris Apothecary, or LTs, or Ancient, techmarines, etc. This whole small army concept very easily starts to work against you eventually.

I am having a hard time to follow. So are you happy you stopped using him? Also, do you think those small characters you like are a good addition instead of Guilliman?

 

However, I do not think there is anything that does not benefit from Gman as everything needs to hit and wound. Could you elaborate.

[Prot]

Good job Ed. I'm glad you had such a good showing. I will say that I've found conscript spam with parking lot IG is a tough nut for a Guilliman list.

 

@Cornelius

 

I know Guilliman is good. I'm just saying that in my experience if you want a super aggressive, deep threat , deep striking army then that's a list that I've found does not truly benefit from Guilliman.

 

The theme of the thread is trying not to use Guilliman '. With that in mind I would recommend a deep strike , very mobile army where Calgar can create a nice fire base for you.