Learning to not play Guilliman?

[Frater Cornelius]

Gotcha, now I understand ;)

 

Not taking Guilliman has his advantages. Depending on the deployment you can effectively split your army, even if you are playing shooty. Just keep a Dreadnought near one of the teams and you have the re-rolls.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Good job Ed. I'm glad you had such a good showing. I will say that I've found conscript spam with parking lot IG is a tough nut for a Guilliman list.

 

@Cornelius

 

I know Guilliman is good. I'm just saying that in my experience if you want a super aggressive, deep threat , deep striking army then that's a list that I've found does not truly benefit from Guilliman.

 

The theme of the thread is trying not to use Guilliman '. With that in mind I would recommend a deep strike , very mobile army where Calgar can create a nice fire base for you.

 

Thank you!  And I believe that a parking lot would be tough.  I bet Maelstrom missions are harder on him as well.  As it is, he plays at his best when he can just hack his way toward the biggest problem, or wait and see what dies on the way to him.  I wasn't super concerned about conscripts though.  Fragstorm Aggressors and Frag Missiles in his bubble should help ensure that he doesn't get bogged down or take overmuch return fire.

 

Anyway, to piggy-back on your comment to Cornelius, I'm not trying to hijack the thread by saying Guilliman is good.  Anyone who can read a dataslate knows that.  But, if I'm out to win the game (as opposed to game night with the boys, fun Konor missions, etc.) I can't see a way that's better.  Even with a bunch of deep strikers and Calgar, you're still likely to want captains and/or lieutenants.  I found it difficult to always do what I wanted to do while keeping the babysitting bubbles of Guilliman, a captain, and a dread. 

 

Maybe I should experiment with dropping Calgar, a jump Lt, and Reivers/Inceptors in the back field while keeping a captain and dreadnought with Devastators , Hellblasters, and Intercessors in the firing line.  A hammer and anvil approach?

[Bmseifer]

Well, I started the thread because I think Gman is good, almost to good to not use. Every list I try to make, there's never a better choice for those points. 

 

His aura pretty much doubles the offensive output of other units if you do the math so if he can buff atleast his point value of units he has earned his points back for pure damage output atleast

 

He's fast and a beast in close combat and even his own gun can do some serious damage

 

He's hard to kill being character, good invul and comes back from the dead

 

He grants 3 command points!

 

 

I can appreciate that a deepstrike army or a very fast and assault oriented army might not be the best for him but otherwise he's unfortunately a nobrainer for me

[Brother Captain Ed]

Well, I started the thread because I think Gman is good, almost to good to not use. Every list I try to make, there's never a better choice for those points. 

 

His aura pretty much doubles the offensive output of other units if you do the math so if he can buff atleast his point value of units he has earned his points back for pure damage output atleast

 

He's fast and a beast in close combat and even his own gun can do some serious damage

 

He's hard to kill being character, good invul and comes back from the dead

 

He grants 3 command points!

 

 

I can appreciate that a deepstrike army or a very fast and assault oriented army might not be the best for him but otherwise he's unfortunately a nobrainer for me

Yup.  This.  100%

 

I'd *love* to find a list that is as competitive without him in it.  I can't.  I am hoping someone else here can.

[Frater Cornelius]

In terms of raw numbers? You won't. However, you might with list composition and the subsequent use of it on the map. The biggest disadvantage of Guilliman is that he costs plenty of points and is a LOW. You can not really prove that point, nor can everyone achieve it as it depends on player performance. However, that is the one way I can think you can outperform Guilliman. The only question is how a list like that would look :P

[Prot]

I think it's highly improbable to replace his presence in the army unless you simply looked at other superheavies...even then, maybe a Killy Raptor? A Leviathan?

 

There are cases of this in many armies and I think as time goes on we'll see more of the same.... Mortarion will be a beast. I know players right now that can seem to make a list without Celestine or a Stormlord... I dunno, it feels appropriate.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the current 40K climate has pushed for "Character Clumping" and in that role, Guilliman is unparalleled. Character Clumping is placing and playing your army around a character or group of characters to maximise the amount of models who gain benefits from their auras.

 

However, I'm considering that Character Clumping is actually not the best way to play. Sure, have 1 or 2 groups about the table of character lead units, but consider that an army that Clumps is ungainly, slow and isolated to a single part of the table. Being able to spread out to areas that give you better position is often superior to clumping around the guy in pretty armour.

 

This is especially true in Maelstrom and objectives games.

 

*** edited as I was rushed before I could finish***

 

The units we have access to, along with our Strategums and Warlord Trait, means we can operate across the table as and where needed. A Tactical squad with plasma, combi plasma and Grav Cannon can jump out of a Rhino and put the hurt on just about anything. A Sternguard squad can use Special Issue boltguns and their wargear to hurt opponents with or without Strategums but they get even more powerful with their specific Strategum and a simple Captain.

 

Terminators can teleport with a Captain and are still fearsome without Guilliman's Aura.

 

I'm considering a treatise on the subject to ensure we take advantage of players who still clump.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Prot]

The only thing I have that clumps is my cat litter. ! ;)

 

I never got deep into using Guilliman. If a friend says to me he wants to try a very competitive game then I pull him out.

 

For the most part I have always deferred to cheap HQs and fast moving armies that typically do bring lots of infantry to the table.

[Captain Idaho]

You're a professional, Prot ;)

 

But many folk online and in my gaming circle have started Clumping and I'm enjoying taking them apart. :)

 

It's especially easy for us Ultramarines as we have Scions of Guilliman in addition to Wisdom of the Ancients and cheap characters to boost our effectiveness around the table. Power projection.

[Ishagu]

The more I've played Guilliman, the more it appears that he isn't an overpowered option. I have been defeated handily by alpha strike lists or mobile forces that control the board on multiple occasions.

 

I think the initial shock of the Ultramarines gunline has passed, and provided you're not playing on shooting gallery board and actually have LOS blocking terrain as you should, I don't think he's an issue.

 

If you're planning an Assault army or a mobile force Guilliman will hold you back significantly.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

That is what I was trying to say above, but you guys put it far better than I could :D

 

I will try him once more today, because I have no usable models for small chars right now. After that I will try more flexible lists.

[Captain Idaho]

Cool. When you do, try a cheap Lieutenant for support squads like Devastator squads and attendant Tactical squads, a cheap Captain joining your mid field squads or even a Jump Pack Chaplain to join an assault force.

 

All can help the army and you can get them all in for Guilliman, spreading power projection across the board better than he could.

[Frater Cornelius]

Borrowed some models and played the non-Guilliman and non-CM list I posted above. However, it was against a Khorne 'Zerker Rhino rush list with the corner deployments, so I had to castle up pretty much the whole game until I weathered the storm. This is where Guilliman would have done very well. But still, even without those full re-rolls it worked out just fine. The Reivers woefully underperformed, but it was enough to win with only about half the force being exchanged for the whole enemy army. This shows that a balanced setup is not useless against such specialized lists and it would have definitely performed better against a non-melee list.

[Frater Cornelius]

Played another game against Ynnari. I am so tempted to take Guilliman back in. Why did I lose? I needed to kill his Serpent turn 1 to stop the biggest damage he has reaching me with Soulburst shenanigans. What happened? Repulsor hit once, with re-rolls and rolled 2 2s to wound. Chronus hit trice, rolled 2 2s when wounding. Next turn, Chronus hit 4 times agsinst a flyer, rolled 3 2s when wounding.

 

There we have the dreaded variance that comes with 1 shot weapons like LC. Guilliman reduces that. You can be mobile all you want, if you can't kill stuff, because a D6 system is inherently busted, then it won't help.

 

But maybe that is because Eldar in general and Ynnari in particular are still the most broken army in the game by a good margin. Still, I am really peeved and ready to discard my list.

[Prot]

I've had bad results from good lists too... I'd try it again without over tweaking it, just for the sake of completeness.

[Frater Cornelius]

I've had bad results from good lists too... I'd try it again without over tweaking it, just for the sake of completeness.

 

I will tweak it slightly. The dakka Reivers with Deep Strike performed increadibly well. Infinitely better than the grapple melee version. Shoot one target, charge another, good times. I will be removing the Gravis Captain, as the 42 extra points really do not warrant his inclusion and I am also a bit iffy about the Ironclad. The core of the list stays. I am considering a second Hellblaster unit, though that might be overkill maybe? We'll see. Next game on Satusday.

[Hopper21]

Played another game against Ynnari. I am so tempted to take Guilliman back in. Why did I lose? I needed to kill his Serpent turn 1 to stop the biggest damage he has reaching me with Soulburst shenanigans. What happened? Repulsor hit once, with re-rolls and rolled 2 2s to wound. Chronus hit trice, rolled 2 2s when wounding. Next turn, Chronus hit 4 times agsinst a flyer, rolled 3 2s when wounding.

 

There we have the dreaded variance that comes with 1 shot weapons like LC. Guilliman reduces that. You can be mobile all you want, if you can't kill stuff, because a D6 system is inherently busted, then it won't help.

 

But maybe that is because Eldar in general and Ynnari in particular are still the most broken army in the game by a good margin. Still, I am really peeved and ready to discard my list.

Mate,

 

I feel your pain, my neighbour plays ynari and I havnt beaten him yet. They are so broken it's unreal. Back on topic even with gman if you loose first turn against ynari you done for.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Played another game against Ynnari. I am so tempted to take Guilliman back in. Why did I lose? I needed to kill his Serpent turn 1 to stop the biggest damage he has reaching me with Soulburst shenanigans. What happened? Repulsor hit once, with re-rolls and rolled 2 2s to wound. Chronus hit trice, rolled 2 2s when wounding. Next turn, Chronus hit 4 times agsinst a flyer, rolled 3 2s when wounding.

 

There we have the dreaded variance that comes with 1 shot weapons like LC. Guilliman reduces that. You can be mobile all you want, if you can't kill stuff, because a D6 system is inherently busted, then it won't help.

 

But maybe that is because Eldar in general and Ynnari in particular are still the most broken army in the game by a good margin. Still, I am really peeved and ready to discard my list.

Mate,

 

I feel your pain, my neighbour plays ynari and I havnt beaten him yet. They are so broken it's unreal. Back on topic even with gman if you loose first turn against ynari you done for.

 

 

Well, I had the first turn. But all dem twos, bro. All dem twos :/

[Captain Idaho]

Hard luck in a hard game. Pay it no heed. You did pretty well with bad luck so imagine what would happen if it was normal ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Hard luck in a hard game. Pay it no heed. You did pretty well with bad luck so imagine what would happen if it was normal

 

Well, I got greedy T1 and got punished by variance. I suppose I learned a lesson to play it safe next time :D

[Frater Cornelius]

And next two games done. First game was a non GM list. I swapped the Ironclad and Gravis for 3 Aggressors, regular Captain and an Ancient.

I played against a character spam list with 7 Autarchs on Jetbikes with Meltas and that utterly broken S6 Lance, 1 Jetseer, 1 Jetlock, that Ynnari Monster and 2 units of 6 Shadow Spectre. Well, got beaten. I made some mistakes, but c'mon, that list is solidified stupidity. You can not shoot anything becausr everything is a character and you can not weaken any unit, because they are characters, without killing them and triggering a massive Soulburst chain. No idea how to beat that.

 

Second game was against Harlies with a Hemlock. I played Guilliman, a Librarian, a Tech Marine, 10 deep strike Bolter Reivers, Ancient, 5 Intercessors, 10 Scouts with HB, 2 Twin AC Razorbacks, 6 Hellblaster and the Repulsor. That game was a stomp. The Reivers ported on an objective, the Scouts infiltrated on objectives, the rest made a mobile gunline around the Banner and GM. Even though the Razors did little as he kept charging then with his transports and the Repulsor died Early due to me being retarded, it was very one-sided. Why? Because Guilliman ist just that good. Well, that and Null Zone wrecks Harleys.

 

*sigh* Among the best performing lists is to play a mobile Guilliman Wrecking Ball to move up the board with a few units that can snag objectives. Scouts and Reivers do a really good job at that, distract the opponent and offset my clumping. No other list or alternate movement and deployment strats managed to reach the performance of that setup. That is a problem :/

[Captain Idaho]

To be honest I wouldn't play someone who played a list that had 7 Autarchs and an army like that. Eldar are good enough without soneone being like that.

 

I don't think it shows us much.

 

If your gaming group is like that then I think the game is skewed.

[Frater Cornelius]

To be honest I wouldn't play someone who played a list that had 7 Autarchs and an army like that. Eldar are good enough without soneone being like that.

 

I don't think it shows us much.

 

If your gaming group is like that then I think the game is skewed.

 

Well, those are my team mates and we are one of the leading clubs in our part in the country. This is what it is like when we practice for tournaments. This is precisely what one must beat. If Guilliman beats that, then Guilliman is the way. If it is a regular game, then non-GM lists seem to do just fine, but there seems to be a limit. The question is whether optimization can cover that or if GM is indeed needed.

 

Refusing to play is a lame exuse and akin to giving up. That is not option Besides, those guys are really nice, so no hard feelings. The game was amazingly tactical and the post-game discussion was very solid. But we agreed on tournament level and we both tried things we aren't sure about. His approach was far more competitive.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

It's cool you agreed to play like that and if that's fun then it's even better.

 

But I still don't think it deals with Guilliman vs non-Guilliman issues. That army is skewed horribly. Eldar Ynnari I mean. I don't think there are any other armies out there which hurt 40K balance like them.

 

Most tournament armies won't have that kind of brokenness. Having an army without can work against non-yannari. Which I reckon is a different thread discussion ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I need a massive sample size to say what is better. I can hardly get that many games in on my own. What I can say from those few games I had is that Guilliman lists felt more stable. However, I do not know if non-GM lists would've felt equally stable in that situation.