Learning to not play Guilliman?

[Prot]

We go through these stints as well with practicing hard lists for no holds barred type tournaments. But I have two groups most of the time and there's no way I can play like that every game. I actually find it gets boring as it strips a lot of units out if the codexes. So we probably play like that in one month bursts and then happily return to pulling out more background driven lists.

 

 

 

I've had bad results from good lists too... I'd try it again without over tweaking it, just for the sake of completeness.

 

 

I will tweak it slightly. The dakka Reivers with Deep Strike performed increadibly well. Infinitely better than the grapple melee version. Shoot one target, charge another, good times. I will be removing the Gravis Captain, as the 42 extra points really do not warrant his inclusion and I am also a bit iffy about the Ironclad. The core of the list stays. I am considering a second Hellblaster unit, though that might be overkill maybe? We'll see. Next game on Satusday.

This interested me. I love the Reiver models but haven't found a spot for them. I liked the pistol because it has -1 AP. if I recall the the Bolt carbines they carry have no AP correct? So you must be going fur saturation. How many are you using? I'll have to try that variant. So far I've been using them with my Inceptors to help take the heat off of them for a turn. But the Reivers seem like too much to be a sacrifice unit to me.

 

On Ynarri, there's a few here that play them but the guy I know who won our last major tournament here used them. It's one of those armies I just feel is so mechanically broken I wish they'd redo the codex already rather than the rumoured after Christmas.

[Ishagu]

After a few more games last week I'd argue that Guilliman is a bit over costed. I'd say 300 points is about right (no doubt against an inexperienced opponent on a barren gaming table he utterly dominates).

 

When you have sufficient terrain the gunline doesn't function, especially if forced to remain stationary or move in formation.

 

I'm going to have to try and figure out how to make other types of lists work. I feel that Chaos Marines have far superior strategems and units that are much more competitive. For example Oblits are hands down superior to Centurions.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Prot - Whether I play GM or not, I usually resort to one major force that slowly moves up (or stays still) and does the main killing part. To support it I need mobile scoring units. Scouts infiltrate on objectives, Intercessors usually hang back and Reivers snatch theirs. Their range is good enough to score on an objective somewhere in cover and still annoy the enemy. I rarely deploy them aggressively, as they are not a throw-away unit. In fact, they are quite important for scoring. The only times I take it aggressively and try to charge is when I face weak scoring units like Scouts, Kabalites or something similar.

 

Regarding the Ynnari character list, is there anything that came close to beating it? I am considering Guilliman against it the second time around to compare how it does perform compared to the non-GM list.

 

@ Ishagu - How do you move / split your force? Most lists I played against are very good at isolating things like Hellblasters with speed and killing them with minimal fuss.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Ishagu]

That's exactly what we have to figure out.

The most comparable army, Chaos Marines, have more damaging and survivable units at competitive costs.

 

A unit of 3 Oblits costs the same basically as 5 Hellblasters but are more survivable, can deepstrike into perfect position and have access to amazing strategems like +1 to wound rolls or shooting twice in one turn. One such unit Destroyer 400+ points in one turn when it Teleported into my backlines in a recent game.

 

What do we have that is able to work as well independently?

[Frater Cornelius]

So an UM Deathball + mobile scoring is what we do best then, especially if CSM outperform Marines in terms of mobile strikes.

[Prot]

After a few more games last week I'd argue that Guilliman is a bit over costed. I'd say 300 points is about right (no doubt against an inexperienced opponent on a barren gaming table he utterly dominates).

 

When you have sufficient terrain the gunline doesn't function, especially if forced to remain stationary or move in formation.

 

I'm going to have to try and figure out how to make other types of lists work. I feel that Chaos Marines have far superior strategems and units that are much more competitive. For example Oblits are hands down superior to Centurions.

 

Sometimes I don't get you Ishagu.... weeks ago you couldn't stop playing GM, now he's over costed? 

 

I really don't know. But I do agree -all- gun lines are hampered by the larger terrain tables. In fact this is what I insist when setting up tables myself, and even in the store. It's something I do agree with ITC about or the game becomes a long distance shoot fest. This is also why we play 'tweaked' Maelstrom.... camping is really difficult, and it's what makes me invest into mutli 'winged' army lists. 

 

I don't agree about Oblits being 'hands down superior'. There's a 33% chance they have the Strength of a Lascannon and will never have the Damage of one... if you're using Grav Cents (which I think you are) I strongly suggest Las with Bolter nipples. Far superior, and with an aura (of any kind) these guys are a wrecking crew. They can hide in a LR, or be blocked by a Repulsor. Put an Apothecary in the group and they are a great honey pot that Guilliman is just waiting for someone to come to...

 

I have been using CP CM's, and even LT's, but Calgar for 200 is pretty darn hard to resist. He's the anti Abaddon and is still cheaper so there's a UM > Chaos for you.

 

The Oblits are MUCH improved though, but always stuck at that 24" range and GK will annihilate them (Daemon rule) which is going to be (I believe) almost a staple in tourney play for a while, putting a -severe- handicap on a lot of Chaos units right out of the box.

 

Strategems? I don't know... a lot of the Daemon vehicles are really bad, and those Strategums are nice, but they are helping handicapped units. I don't think one side has better strats. I play both sides a lot, and I think GW did a very good job on them for both armies.

 

The bottom line for me would be to stop using Primaris (mostly). Every loss is critical, there is no filler. They are still largely overpriced, and rigidly inflexible in build types. The best lists I have played in 8th were in the beginning with no Primaris.

 

But for me... I just don't care enough to maximize my lists. I want to use new 'fun' stuff... Redemptors are very bad imo. They are the 'Defiler' of Marines, a mixed loadout, with poor moving/shooting abilities, and a damage chart that is severely handicapping at 200 points. I just don't care though. I'm enjoying the new stuff.

 

The opening weeks of 8th I stopped using Guilliman unless a friend tells me he wants to try something heinous and wants to throw down vs. a Primarch.  I'm happy with the way my non-GM lists work, but we do have people like Ed who feel quite strongly that no list can compare... without Guilliman.

[Frater Cornelius]

It is hard to argue that GM isn't a powerhouse. He costs aw much as Captain, Lieutenant and an Ironclad, and has better abilities than those three combined in any role those three could possibly do. I do not agree that he is the be all end all of UM. There is more to a list than pure numbers.

 

I disagree about the Redemptor. So far, it is the only Dreadnought left in all my lists that include Dreads. But that is a discussion for another thread.

 

Anyway, got some Guilliman games coming up. I will compare those with the non-GM games I played and see which I like better.

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman is amazing at what he does and I think well worth the points. The problem I believe is for some people they think Guilliman should be babysitting a gunline and for that his potential, and the reason he costs 360pts, is wasted. As an example, you don't see Chaos Players using Abaddon to direct a unit of Havocs and Obliterators to shoot better because it's wasting his combat abilities.

 

Use Guilliman to lead an attack, get stuck in with him and his men and let your Devastator squad and Centurions support the attack. He'll become worth his cost then.

 

My additional point is Guilliman requires a spearhead approach to play. He can't be everywhere at once. It's for this reason it's a viable alternative to take a Captain and Lieutenants in the list instead. If your list is about board control then a spread out force can be lead by several characters who can each boost the forces under their command to improve their combat potential.

[Ishagu]

Sorry Prot, I feel I should elaborate.

 

I fully believe that Guilliman is the best thing about the Ultras. I'd go as far as saying that he should be a mandatory selection in a competitive focused Ultramarines army.

 

My issue is with the limitations that places on the Ultras. You want to maximise the aura effect so it pushes you into less mobile lists.

 

My second observation is that Chaos have units that function better independently, and better strategems with less limitations. For example, any Chaos Predator can move and shoot without BS reduction for 1 command point, whilst that is limited to iron hands only in the case of the loyalists.

 

I'm experiencing a lot of games where mobilty and board control are the winning factors, and playing up to the Ultras' strengths means you won't excell in those areas.

[Frater Cornelius]

So... an advancing Guilliman deathball then :D

 

As for Stratagems, I have no read them all, but from wht I hear then have about as many useful ones as SM.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm experiencing a lot of games where mobilty and board control are the winning factors, and playing up to the Ultras' strengths means you won't excell in those areas.

I actually feel this is the opposite. Ultramarines, along with Scions of Guilliman, Wisdom of the Ancients and cheap Lieutenants, are able to operate without Clumping. If you only consider an army of Ultramarines being effective if they're clumped around Guilliman then I feel the Ultramarines are not being used correctly.

[Ishagu]

So you're suggesting Guilliman is a hindrance to the Ultramarines? :-P

[Prot]

So you're suggesting Guilliman is a hindrance to the Ultramarines? :-P

 

I think he's suggesting the UM Strategems are darn good.... I honestly agree.

 

The Auspex Scan alone is something I absolutely love against these aggressive armies. The Sons of Guilliman is fantastic. The Dreadnought ones are great... getting an aura off a Redemptor, getting a 5++ save against Mortal Wounds on a smite based army that you just put your Dreadnought at the front of....  I use almost all of these every game.

 

The Chaos predator one is good, but the best one imo is VotLW... and it can't be used by probably the strongest of the Chaos Legions; Renegades. Don't worry Chaos have their limited ones too... the Emperor's Children might be the best Legion Specific one, and it's limited to... EC.

 

The thing to remember about stuff like the Predator ones is that the Chaos player is frittering away a limited resource (CP's) on a very basic perk. Guilliman is giving you 3 CP's, and you are refunding a third of them... you'll be recycling stuff like Wisdom of the Ancients, and getting more re rolls on average than a Chaos player.

 

Can you elaborate on how you've faired in these games?

[Frater Cornelius]

Alright, played against the Autarch list again. My list: Guilliman, Tigurius, 10 Intercessors with 2 grenade launchers, 2 units of 5 Scouts with one HB each, one Repulsor, one TLAC RB, 6 Rapid Fire Hellblasters, 2 units of 5 Carbine Reivers with DS and a Dakka Redemptor.

 

Well, this time it was a win. Fairly close, but skewed in my favour. However, we found out there was a rules error in the beginning, which was game changing and both agreed it wouldn't have been even remotely close and highly stacked in my favour. Guilliman take this one.

 

Why is that? Well, I know one big factor and that is the staggering efficiency of GM. He makes statistical flops unlikely and he simplifies the game. Ynnari Autarch spam is very hard to play. Mistakes are inevitable and punishing. In a competitive games you want to minimize mistakes and bad luck, both of which Guilliman provides.

Reivers pulled their weight, as did the Scouts. Scoring and deploying outside of the deathball is solid.

 

Well, that, and I was prepared this time :P

[Prot]

That's good to hear. Aside from GM and the Reivers your list is al out identical to my every day UM list. ( I use 2 squads of Helblasters, one assault one rapid fire).

 

What was the rules error?

 

I think while you can give some credit to Guilliman I think you probably deserve credit for having a better understanding of your opponent's army too.

[Frater Cornelius]

That's good to hear. Aside from GM and the Reivers your list is al out identical to my every day UM list. ( I use 2 squads of Helblasters, one assault one rapid fire).

 

What was the rules error?

 

I think while you can give some credit to Guilliman I think you probably deserve credit for having a better understanding of your opponent's army too.

He Soulburst charged his Ynncarn the same turn it came from reserve. The rules say that you can not charge with it the turn it arrives from reserves. That move brought it closest to my army, robbing Guilliman, the Dread and the Hellblasters of their shooting phase. Without it, two more Autarchs would've died turn one, on top of the Ynncarn, which was already at 3W and the two that were already dead. And the Repulsor wouldn't have have been knocked down to 1W.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

So you're suggesting Guilliman is a hindrance to the Ultramarines? :-P

Yeah Prot is on my wavelength I think. The problem with good characters having useful auras is many players want as many units as possible to benefit from those auras. Sometimes though you are hurting yourself by maximising aura coverage; "character clumping".

 

The Ultramarines Strategums and Chapter Tactics enable our units to spread out and still be effective. Have several leaders with their own forces operating together rather than a single character(s) leading every unit in a clump of models.

 

Use the Chapter Tactics, a Lieutenant, Captain or Chaplain and dominate the field since your are not hamstrung in a particular location and play style.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Our Warlord trait is pretty good too. I started my game with seven CP, burned about two a turn for six turns, and still had four left at the end of the game.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha yes I played the other day with 6 in 1500pts and used over the course of the game a total of 9 and still had 2 left!

 

My opponent wasn't amused.

[Prot]

Oh I wish I rolled like that. No such luck. I figure at this point I average about 2 saved CPs per game. I've had some witynnine and some with 5 though.

 

I still really like the flexibility of Calgar. I've had him get owned against the like of Typhus, but aside from Abaddon no other character give 2 cp and the points saved for me are equivalent to approximately a squad of Agressors and the saved HQ slot.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Oh I wish I rolled like that. No such luck. I figure at this point I average about 2 saved CPs per game. I've had some witynnine and some with 5 though.

 

I still really like the flexibility of Calgar. I've had him get owned against the like of Typhus, but aside from Abaddon no other character give 2 cp and the points saved for me are equivalent to approximately a squad of Agressors and the saved HQ slot.

If I may...

 

I was going to respond in greater depth when I had the time, but I saw this and just wanted to point out: It appears to me that Guilliman is simply worth the squad of Aggressors and the HQ slot.  Calgar's value doesn't really enter into it.

[Prot]

I'm obviously speaking strictly point value wise Ed. Not his far reaching ability to flip a war over on its backside.

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not gloss over the fact Guilliman is a hard nut too. He's striking at S8 on a 2+ and has a great Bolter.

[Frater Cornelius]

Guilliman has a fair chance to topple a Knight with his Bolter + charge. I do not think regular units are a good comparison hoe hard this guy hits in melee.