Making jump assault marines viable?

[dakkamasta]

So I've been trying really hard to make jump assault marines a good option and I'm struggling to come up with a build that I'm happy with.

 

I keep looking at them and then looking at death company and vanguard vets and can't justify taking assault squads as a close combat unit.

 

Likewise even with the FAQ giving us our special weapons back. I keep thinking of running company veterans instead to concentrate their fire. It sucks that the sergeant can't take a combi-weapon anymore.

 

Has anyone come up with a use for assault squads? I love them so much but was sick of them being underwhelming in 7th and I fear the same for 8th.

[Mr. Poe]

This is coming from a Raven Guard player so make of it what you will...

 

I traded off all my assault marines a few year back and replaced them with vanguards. Assault marines are not a good close combat unit unfortunately; there are just better options.

 

Maybe you can use them as mobile objective grabbers? A few 5 man squad jumping around can be helpful in objective based games, even more so now in 8th where you have a little more control over where and when you can deep strike. 

 

Just my 2 cents.

[TheHarrower]

I stripped the packs off of mine and stuffed them in a Rhino with Corbulo. Makes them a low cost decent unit, but doesn't solve your problem. :/

[Sawtooth]

I don't know, maybe a couple of minimum squads with plasma guns deep striking with a captain, overcharge on a priority target? I don't know if that's the best use, just brainstorming.

[Tonius]

Take them because they're stylish, fluffy and no other reason than pure love for BA with yellow helmet

[9x19 Parabellum]

I would second the idea of cheap objective grabbers.  Jump packs with no special guns or in a Rhino perhaps.

[biglou666]

Even as a BA player, 8th edition has buffed transports (read, razorbacks) so much i think even my larger lists are going to see a maximum of 10 jump packs from now on. Just put all of your important objective grabbing units in assault cannon razorbacks. If its more of a line holding unit, shove them in lazerbacks, (or las/plas backs).

 

If you want to play more aggressively with assault sqauds with jump packs, I'd give them flamers and the sergeant a hand flamer. They do a great job of detering and punishing charges. You can also deepstrike them into cover to reduce the effectiveness of enemy shooting and charging, then move / charge the next turn.

[Jolemai]

It really depends what it is you are trying to do with them.

 

If you are going for the horse archers approach then use them as such, maybe tossing in a combat upgrade for emergencies and if points allow.

 

If you are opting for combat, bulk them out, give them the upgrades and support them (or rather use them as support for something else)... And use them en masse

 

At the end of the day they are just standard Marines and they've never been counted on to do the heavy lifting. Treat them as you would Tacticals in a foot list. Oh, and remember to fire those pistols in the shooting phase when engaged and always throw a frag grenade if you get the chance (especially for overwatch).

[Remtek]

So I've been trying really hard to make jump assault marines a good option and I'm struggling to come up with a build that I'm happy with.

 

I keep looking at them and then looking at death company and vanguard vets and can't justify taking assault squads as a close combat unit.

 

Likewise even with the FAQ giving us our special weapons back. I keep thinking of running company veterans instead to concentrate their fire. It sucks that the sergeant can't take a combi-weapon anymore.

 

Has anyone come up with a use for assault squads? I love them so much but was sick of them being underwhelming in 7th and I fear the same for 8th.

Running with plasma or melta it's close between them and vets. Ablaitive wounds are better in 8th with wound allocation, but it's also nice to just drop 5 melta and erase something (vets). 

 

I don't really see them in an assault role as the company/vanguard vets do it so much better. If your gonna spend 20 points on a thunderhammer, having 3 attacks makes a pretty big difference and the stormshields give them good staying power.  Death company are somewhat better suited for rhinos now in my opinion, but think they are a bit weak there as well. 

[dakkamasta]

Good points, I like the objective grabbing role that could be interesting. Perhaps running them with flamers if that was the case.

 

I really hope the codex gives us a better reason to take them. Even if they became troops again like the 5th edition codex, that would make me more than happy to take them to fill out a battalion detachment.

[Helias_Tancred]

Roles for our Assault Marines:

 

1. Mobile Anti-Infantry unit, especially against horde infantry when you go with flamers and a hand flamer.

 

2. 5 Man-Melta squad. Cheap. Always good.

 

3. Mobile objective camper.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Currently only likely to be taken if you have run out of Elite slots I suppose.

Not impossible to do with Blood Angels. 

 

Assault Marines can do work as a cheaper drop in screen for more important units. With access to decent guns.

 

You save a few points over the veterans at 5 guys, but veterans are probably a better choice in most cases considering smaller squad size etc.

I think it likely we may see the company veterans limited to one squad per HQ soon tho.

It has also been speculated they will become troops for us again perhaps.

So don't throw em all over the fence yet.

[Closet Skeleton]

If you are opting for combat, bulk them out, give them the upgrades and support them (or rather use them as support for something else)... And use them en masse

 

Everyone I've ever seen who dislikes Assault Marines always seems to use them completely wrong, somehow thinking "they come in boxes of 5 so they should be usable in units of 5 ".

 

If you want one hard hitting elite unit to smash the enemy to bits in assault, what is just a tactical marine with faster movement and a sword instead of a bolter is not that unit. Vanguard Veterans and Deathcompany are not a big price jump over a unit of assault marines, but 20 Vanguard Veterans are a lot more points than 20 Assault Marines and I wouldn't bet on any strategy with less than 20 wounds backing it up unless I have something like Storm Shields as well.

 

1 Sanguinary Priest is a lot more points efficient backing up 20 assault marines than he is with 10 or even 5 Vanguard.

[Xenith]

The first question is, what do you want your assault marines to do?

 

Assault?

 

As above, bring 20 with a priest. Expecting 10 unsupported assault marines to work miracles will leave you dissatisfied. You wouldnt send 10 tactical marines up field alone, right?

[dakkamasta]

When I first started playing BA in 6th edition, I ran 2× 10 assaults with double melta, power sword and melta bombs with a priest. So I'm glad you guys advocate the large squads because it was how I was hoping to run them.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't underestimate what 2 meltas and a melta bomb can do now. Even against monstrous creatures they can really hurt, and with a full squad they have breathing room to take some casualties and carry on.

 

They're probably the best unit to take advantage of the FLY keyword since they can take the brunt of an assault and jump away to shoot something. Whereas company vets are too small a squad and will most likely die if they are charged.

[dakkamasta]

Another thought, they could potentially be good character killers. With meltas and their ability to escape protracted combats, they could jump right up next to a character and shoot point blank meltas in their face.

[Jolemai]

 

 

If you are opting for combat, bulk them out, give them the upgrades and support them (or rather use them as support for something else)... And use them en masse

Everyone I've ever seen who dislikes Assault Marines always seems to use them completely wrong, somehow thinking "they come in boxes of 5 so they should be usable in units of 5 ".

 

If you want one hard hitting elite unit to smash the enemy to bits in assault, what is just a tactical marine with faster movement and a sword instead of a bolter is not that unit. Vanguard Veterans and Deathcompany are not a big price jump over a unit of assault marines, but 20 Vanguard Veterans are a lot more points than 20 Assault Marines and I wouldn't bet on any strategy with less than 20 wounds backing it up unless I have something like Storm Shields as well.

 

1 Sanguinary Priest is a lot more points efficient backing up 20 assault marines than he is with 10 or even 5 Vanguard.

Just to confirm because, you know, internet, but we're in agreement then?

[Karhedron]

The first question is, what do you want your assault marines to do?

 

Assault?

 

As above, bring 20 with a priest. Expecting 10 unsupported assault marines to work miracles will leave you dissatisfied. You wouldnt send 10 tactical marines up field alone, right?

Or for the same points you can run 16 Van Vets + upgrades with that Priest. You lose 4 warm bodies (and hence wounds) but you gain 8 extra attacks (assuming Chainswords). Now where it gets better is the extra equipment that VVs can take. If you run dual chainswords for the same price, all of a sudden you are getting 24 extra attacks which will mulch hordes very well. Or you can add a sprinkling of power swords, thunder hammers or special weapons to allow them to kill a wider range of targets more efficiently.

 

That is my problem with RAS. For the same points, VVs can do the same job better or they can be kitted out to do a wider range of jobs. Now that the Vanguard detachment is a thing, I struggle to justify RAS. You can make a case for extra CPs if you want to run Battalion or Brigade detachments but there comes a point when it is better to just make your core army stronger and save your CPs for when you really need them rather than compromising your hitting power just to get access to rerolls that you likely wouldn't need to use if your army hits harder to begin with.

 

Here endeth the rant!

Edited July 11, 2017 by Karhedronuk

[Morticon]

I outlined the issues here in the suggestions post.   
 

I dont believe its a jump pack problem, or rather exclusively a JP problem.  I think its a marine infantry problem. 
Our cost is anchored to what we were priced at.  3+ armour was solid.  It is now no longer the same.   Cover is very difficult to get and those 3+ saves very quickly become 4+.  While a 5+ save from a ML is a nice thing to have, the ubiquity of high ROF, middling AP is far more devastating to marines.  

 

You need to play these guys in a support role.  Almost definitely not first turn, and unless terrain is very favourable, never on the table. 

I think theyd work well with pod support or behind vehicles that have advanced (after turn1 ).

Problem is, i cant justify their cost to effectiveness. 160 points base for 10. Add  another 61 points for a plas pistol, hammer and 2 meltas...and youre looking at a unit that is coming in at 221.  

As mentioned above, for that cost, you can get a VAS unit of 9 with 5 shields, more attacks and far more survivability, albeit not as much melta-support. 

RAS are still underwhelming at the moment.  Best use i've found for them is in Rhinos or Razors to act as more attacky-TACs :P 

[Brother_Mike]

I'm not sure how the points pan out atm since I don't have my index on me, but perhaps inceptor primaris marines are an alternative to consider. Cause Inceptors seem to possess the durability that assault marines lack, and have a ton of a shots to make a dent in things. Those Boltstorm ganutlets also bring power fist attacks in close combat iirc.

 

Plus you can still paint their helmets yellow ;)

[dakkamasta]

I love the look of inceptors, in fact they're the only primaris unit I have any interest in whatsoever. The problem is that they're outrageously expensive. Yes they can come down and let out a devastating volley of shots, but you pay 15 meltabombs per model and they have the same resilience as a 3 man biker unit.

[Karhedron]

Inceptors are massively overcosted. For 4 melta bombs less per model you have get a HB attack bike which has similar firepower and speed but twice the number of wounds.

 

If they were the points cost listed in the Primaris Minidex that came with Dark Millenium, they would be worth experimenting with but the FAQ confirmed they are the price listed in II1 which is just too high to be worth it. 2 TLAC Razorbacks are cheaper, shootier and vastly tougher while being only slightly less mobile.

[Closet Skeleton]

Or for the same points you can run 16 Van Vets + upgrades with that Priest. You lose 4 warm bodies (and hence wounds) but you gain 8 extra attacks (assuming Chainswords). Now where it gets better is the extra equipment that VVs can take. If you run dual chainswords for the same price, all of a sudden you are getting 24 extra attacks which will mulch hordes very well. Or you can add a sprinkling of power swords, thunder hammers or special weapons to allow them to kill a wider range of targets more efficiently.

 

 

You kind of undermine your point here by reminding us that you can spend even more money on vanguard.

 

It really depends on if you want those flamers and meltaguns that only assault squads can take. In the past I would have said assault squads are better for the wounds but that was when I could give them feel no pain.

 

Dual chainswords sure sounds cool but I know in an actual game I'd screw up and wish I had the bolt pistols.

 

I think the real reason I'm not convinced is that I feel that if I want storm shields then I want hammernators, assault squads at least have the advantage of being cheap which the middle costed vanguard do not.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Charlo]

I'm not sure how the points pan out atm since I don't have my index on me, but perhaps inceptor primaris marines are an alternative to consider. Cause Inceptors seem to possess the durability that assault marines lack, and have a ton of a shots to make a dent in things. Those Boltstorm ganutlets also bring power fist attacks in close combat iirc.

 

Plus you can still paint their helmets yellow

 

Inceptors are actually worse defensively.

 

Most AP1+ weapons are probably going to cause multiple damage too, completely negating the Inceptors extra wound, where as an assault marine would die just the same to a 1D weapon as a 6D weapon, as it doesn't carry over.

 

They are also very expensive as others have outlined.

[Arkangilos]

I think assault marines should probably be used more as a QRF.