Ultramarines Chapter Tactic (8th) Preview

[Toxichobbit]

 

 

Edit: I should add that it doesn't apply to non-Dreadnought vehicles. Easy to assume that given previous Chapter Tactics, but it's clarified in the article.

 

 

I don't see where it says that? It just says "Ultramarines units with this tactic can still shoot in a turn in which they fall back." 

 

It's in the article, not the rule itself. It'll be like all previous Chapter Tactics with general rules being seperate to the individual Chapter rules, which is all we've seen so far.

 

Here's the direct quote

"like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts."

[Brother Captain Ed]

Upon reflection, I found it interesting that Ultramarine Inceptors, Assault Squads, and Vanguard only have half a chapter tactics rule. I mean, it's not like the sky is falling or anything, but it is a little strange. I suppose, if you have a bunch of Razorbacks, or perhaps land Raiders or other transports, you could save points on jump packs. I don't know. It doesn't seem bad at all but I think rerolls might have been better. Especially since I have found Guilliman's rerolls to be the best thing about him. Edited July 17, 2017 by Brother Captain Ed

[Brother Captain Ed]

Oh and I just saw the Raven Guard's CT...people were complaining about ours?? Get outta here.

[Dariokan]

Well, it's not THAT BAD. Either they are 12" away, or they are slicing your face up close and personal with Lightning Claws. Well, a little bonus to jump pack units would have been nice, but I have the feeling that the new CT will not be geared toward specific units.

[TrexPushups]

Well, it's not THAT BAD. Either they are 12" away, or they are slicing your face up close and personal with Lightning Claws. Well, a little bonus to jump pack units would have been nice, but I have the feeling that the new CT will not be geared toward specific units.

Raven Guard devastators & dreadnoghts are going to be amazing.

 

Except when the enemy deep strikes or assaults.

 

Our is still pretty great but it won't be tournament defining like devastators that can survive alpha strikes from gunlines.

[Prot]

Just as a side note.... I'm used to people complaining about how great Ultra's are, and then I wait 5 minutes and something else gets revealed and it starts all over.

 

Our tactics look fine... just like they did last edition, but if you'll recall it was the White Scars who became the go to in competitive play for most meta's. I expect the same will happen here, and I'm okay with that. I don't think anyone here took up Ultra's because they are 'the' tournament army. 

 

I've learned that our old tactics weren't quite that valuable because the Battle Co. gave all Chapters a taste of playing Ultra to a large degree. Now ironically our new tactics give us a taste of playing 7th ed White Scars. I assume they will have the ability to retreat as well (with no penalty). 

 

In this edition our (actually all Chapters') auras are quite potent, and seem to establish the strength of the army as being mid-range firepower (surprised?). Where we go with our Tactics appears to be deeper into items that most can't afford to have tied up... Landraiders, Razorbacks, the new hover tanks (fly?), Centurions... etc. Combining the Auras with Ultra Tactics seems to push us in this direction... This makes stuff like Chronus in a <insert favorite tank here> even better.

 

But while some may claim we got it really good with this rule, I'd say; enjoy it while it lasts. These judgements are being made with literally zero codexes released. I think our Tactics are good, but in some cases they will be moot... Tau for instance really gave us problems in 7th, I expect more of the same. I think some super hard hitting close combat codexes really won't care if we can leave close combat. Astra already have this ability, etc, etc.  So enjoy it while it lasts. 

[Ishagu]

The best things about Ultras?

 

Roboute Guilliman, Tigarius and the Terminus Ultra.

Embrace these things, Brothers! Lol

[Dariokan]

Tigarius

It's TigUrius, never understood why you, amongst others, kept mispelling it, brother :)

 

And about the Terminus Ultra, unless your gaming group ban FW stuff (and I think not, given your love of the Sicaran), there is no reason to take it over a Spartan. If you use PL, the Spartan costs 7 PL LESS, is sturdier, shoots more, is way better in close combat, can disengage and shoot.  And he can pump its 8 Lascannon shoot without overheating. And it can transport troops. A lot. It is flat out better on every single point. For less.

 

If you use regular points, the Spartan is 497 VS 400 for the Terminus Ultra. Even those 97 excess points can't account for how much superior the Spartan is over the Terminus Ultra. Or any other Land Raider, for that matter. (which can bring us to wonder why something without any options variation except a token heavy weapon should be much cheaper in PL and slighty more costed in points. Anyway. Makes me think the Spartan is so grossly undercosted in PL that it might be a typo).

 

Sorry for the thred hijack :3

[Prot]

Honestly I don't feel like there's much in the codex that is going to blow us away. And I'm not being negative. Look at what we've seen so far... most new units are Primaris related. A lot of it does not overlap with marines that we know and love.

 

Intercessors, Inceptors, Agressors, Retributors, etc. Will any of this truly be game a game changer? I don't know but it doesn't feel like it from what has been leaked. I think our cool stuff is going to be our rules in conjunction with units we probably use now.

 

I just hope we're ultimately flexible, but potent. I always took to Ultramarines for a he background and to a degree that would include having a very well rounded codex, where alternately we're seeing Ravenguard are going to be a stealthy strike team based army.

 

I see us having great characters surrounded by elite specialists being supported by masses of troops (that hopefully aren't just a tax!)

 

It appears we will have access to ObSec again making those Intercessors a little more attractive since their model count will be low.

[Captain Idaho]

On the subject - I don't think our troops will be just a tax. Combi weapons and a special makes a 10 man unit quite potent jumping out of a Rhino or taking fire and still putting hurt back on the opponent.

 

For years we've all loved the idea of taking a 2nd special instead of the heavy weapons and now we can. I don't think folk are celebrating enough!

[Prot]

That's a good point. To be honest now that I think of it all of my 8th edition Ultra games have been using Scouts and Intercessors as troops!

 

I never realized until this moment I haven't even used marines as troops; they've always been devastators in my games (which are darn good now).

[Ishagu]

I'm not sure I can deploy any infantry with less than 2 Wounds on the table unless they are a disposable horde.

 

Because of the way cover works now, I don't think Devs can function. One of my friends played a havoc filled force against me - I wiped all 3 units off turn 1. Shooting is still powerful, and with the Primarch in my list my Ultras delete whatever they target.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Ishagu

[Brother Captain Ed]

You know...now that we've seen the other CTs, the Ultras may be the winner.  Definitely top 3.

 

Thinking about it more, these may be the fluffiest CTs we've ever had.  This is exactly how I imagined the First Company's defense of the polar fortress went. 

 

After days of fighting off probes and smaller packs of Tyranids, the towering beasts of Behemoth appeared on the horizon surrounded by throngs of lesser creatures.  In accurate volleys, the guns of the Ultramarines opened fire, scything through the alien horde.  Cannons boomed and bolters roared as the hive pressed forward.  Despite taking casualties that would have broken any other force, the xenos crashed into the blue line.  It wavered, but held.  Calmly, the disciplined defenders fell back from the first line, continuing sustained and disciplined fire.  Again, the aliens hit the line, again the marines held and continued their retrograde by fire, reaping a terrible toll on the monsters for each loss they suffered.  They fell back to the walls, they fell back to the inner keep.  The aliens payed in blood for every emplacement, every nook, every murder hole.  Finally with, no ground left to give, the captain and his honor guard stood until they could stand no more, and fell, covered in the blood of the invaders. 

 

Silence descended. 

 

The fortress had become a tomb for space marine and alien alike.  But Macragge stood.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Brother Captain Ed

[Ishagu]

I'm really happy with the Chapter Tactics. I think they'll be really effective, especially against fast moving disruption units that can shut out units down.

 

WS,RG and Ultras are standouts.

Black Templars are actually deceptively good, especially with their unit synergy in mind.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Ishagu

[Seahawk]

I don't think anecdotes are prevailing sureties though. Shouldn't +1 save be good?

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'm really happy with the Chapter Tactics. I think they'll be really effective, especially against fast moving disruption units that can shut out units down.

 

WS,RG and Ultras are standouts.

Black Templars are actually deceptively good, especially with their unit synergy in mind.

The Sallies got the sleeper.  A hit and wound re-roll per unit is really good when most re-rolls are only for 1s and only within 6 inches.

[Prot]

I'm not sure I can deploy any infantry with less than 2 Wounds on the table unless they are a disposable horde.

 

Because of the way cover works now, I don't think Devs can function. One of my friends played a havoc filled force against me - I wiped all 3 units off turn 1. Shooting is still powerful, and with the Primarch in my list my Ultras delete whatever they target.

 

Is this a statement against single wound models? Or a statement in favour of an army full of re-rolls to hit and wound?

 

I don't think your situation discounts the use of single wound models to be fair. Even if they were multi wound there are a ton of Damage 2+ shots that can take that down just as easily.

 

A 5-6 man missile launcher squad sitting in a Razorback is pretty economical and powerful. I've used it to great success personally but I may not be as aggressive as your friend is. First turn is extremely potent in most of my games. I find inexperienced players who are going second tend to be a bit more aggressive than they should... almost like it is still 7th edition and the destructive nature of the units in general hasn't really weighed in their deployment decisions.

 

Getting out of a transport now with a heavy weapon team is perfectly valid now too. There's no need to throw the squad to the dogs.

 

That being said... I haven't used any marines as troops. I still really like the scouts. Since day one I touted them as our best troop... I don't think that has changed for me personally, but perhaps the codex will change that!?!?

[Captain Idaho]

It's a case of what you got in your list. If you load out with infantry then why would your opponent delete Tactical squads when there are other targets to worry about. Do you not have a Terminator squad teleporting next to his gun line, spraying them with fire before readying a charge?

 

Personally I'm loving Tactical Marines. They hit on a 3+ in close combat now which actually makes them quite effective.

 

What I don't much rate is Intercessors survivability. Sure against Bolters and the like they are fairly tough. But what about when I open up with my autocannons? They die just as easily as Marines then.

 

Not to mention Overcharging Plasma is where it's at. What, you're afraid of killing your own men? Not when a Captain is nearby or even an Apothecary to resurrect a dead Plasma gunner.

 

Not mention it has been mentioned as a powerful weapon still in other threads - grav wounds on a 3+ and will kill a Primaris Marine on a 3+. (Not that I'd take Grav over Plasma)

[Schultzhoffen]

I agree with regards scouts. Cheap(ish) and effective. Whether snipers or not, they are a solid option.

 

I find that I need to run cheap scouts to fit in the things that really kill the enemy.

 

I love tacticals. I really do. I SO want to run x3 squads of 10 in rhinos but in a very competitive environment scouts are the better choice ( due to freeing up points). Interestingly, you can still take Razorbacks as gun vehicles if you take scouts.

 

In an environment with Imperial Knights, land raiders, close combat monsters, etc, I find that I can't fit in tac squads if I want decent heavy hitters in my army.

 

Pity, really.

 

They're fine for friendly games, though, and I hope will be better when the Codex drops.

[Prot]

I am guessing that Tacticals go back to Obsec and that is your competitive angle. We always play Maelstrom which helps a lot to prevent parking lot lists, but we do have the odd ITC tournament too which also promotes ObSec.

[Dariokan]

TBH, I don't understand how we can compare our CT with others. It's crap. Disengaging and shooting only? If your non-dedicated combat units are charged by combat units, you'll have one or two marine/scout alive to retaliate (with less accuracy, heavy weapons on a 5+, yay). If you're forced to disengage you're already screwed. The only units that could take benefit from it are bikes and dreads. It's useless for all our CC infantry, and our ranged infantry is already dead anyway. Of course, if you are charged by guardsmen or gretchin, it's good, but let's face it, you want to disengage from Banshees, Berserker or Ork Mobs.

+1 to Ld ? (ie Ld 9 all around) You need to have lost at least 4 marines to benefit from it, meaning your combat squad is already dead, and will really be useful in full squad when you start to lose 6 or 7 marines (ie: you squad is already destroyed).

 

The Raven Guard one is strong. The Imperial Fist is REALLY strong (a bit too strong). The Sallies' one is excellent. Iron Hands, 6+ FNP is awesome. The White Scars is devastating. Ours is just crap.

Edit : well, it's potent with Primaris units. Or bikes. Basically units that can withstand fire. Coincidence ? I think not.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Dariokan

[Ishagu]

Ultramarines have always been, in my eyes, primarily a shooting army. True they have combat elements, but BA, BT, SW, etc are the ones focused on the Assault.

 

I can tell you right now that if I'd had access to this chapter Tactic in my last few games last week the two narrow losses I suffered would have been major victories.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Ishagu

[ronin_cse]

TBH, I don't understand how we can compare our CT with others. It's crap. Disengaging and shooting only? If your non-dedicated combat units are charged by combat units, you'll have one or two marine/scout alive to retaliate (with less accuracy, heavy weapons on a 5+, yay). If you're forced to disengage you're already screwed. The only units that could take benefit from it are bikes and dreads. It's useless for all our CC infantry, and our ranged infantry is already dead anyway. Of course, if you are charged by guardsmen or gretchin, it's good, but let's face it, you want to disengage from Banshees, Berserker or Ork Mobs.

 

+1 to Ld ? (ie Ld 9 all around) You need to have lost at least 4 marines to benefit from it, meaning your combat squad is already dead, and will really be useful in full squad when you start to lose 6 or 7 marines (ie: you squad is already destroyed).

 

The Raven Guard one is strong. The Imperial Fist is REALLY strong (a bit too strong). The Sallies' one is excellent. Iron Hands, 6+ FNP is awesome. The White Scars is devastating. Ours is just crap.

 

Edit : well, it's potent with Primaris units. Or bikes. Basically units that can withstand fire. Coincidence ? I think not.

 

Gotta say I absolutely disagree with you saying the UM CTs are crap. I have had plenty of cases in my games where disengaging so I could shoot at the engaged unit was the best choice and that was with knowing my unit that fell back wouldn't be able to do anything. This really is a pretty huge buff.

 

The RG one is probably the strongest out of all of them though since minuses to hit are VERY good this edition. Honestly the IF one isn't that great as cover doesn't come up a whole lot from my experience, either it's too hard to actually get cover or the weapons you are firing end up negating the bonus anyways. I don't see why you say the WS one is devastating while ours is crap as it is pretty similar, and IMO Space Marine shooting tends to be a bit better than SM melee for your average unit.

[Prot]

Oh I don't think the UM Tactics are bad at all... not at all. In fact my love for elite units that shoot a lot just got rewarded. The thing I want to guard people against is over reaction... bad or good. 

 

This is the first codex of 8th. I guarantee if we have this conversation in 6 months the discussion of who scored on CT's is going to change. Not only that but there's a whole pile of stuff we don't know about. I know GW is loathe to use the word 'formation' now but we now know for a fact that there are 'rewards' (in the form of an aura?) for taking multiples of units. I believe the example given was a special kind of round for using multiple Thunderfire Cannons.

 

If you asked me today what I think of Thunderfire Cannons, I'd say horrible. Ask me in 2 weeks. For CT's everyone is hot on the Raven Guard and I agree it's really good... but some armies are almost going to laugh at that. Seriously. Right now Tau are probably thinking... how the heck did Raven Guard get a magic bullet for us? When the Tau 'dex comes out, it'll probably have a few work arounds for those Ravenguard special rules.

 

Personally I don't need us to be the best, I want us to play like we are written. (Just gotta give props to Dark Imperium again). If we were amazing, I know it would bother me. Already I'm seeing "Guilliman" in tons of tournament lists... just to abuse his aura with Flyer tournie lists. I'm sure we'll be more than fine for at least... 2-3 more codexes. lol

[Brother Captain Ed]

TBH, I don't understand how we can compare our CT with others. It's crap. Disengaging and shooting only? If your non-dedicated combat units are charged by combat units, you'll have one or two marine/scout alive to retaliate (with less accuracy, heavy weapons on a 5+, yay). If you're forced to disengage you're already screwed. The only units that could take benefit from it are bikes and dreads. It's useless for all our CC infantry, and our ranged infantry is already dead anyway. Of course, if you are charged by guardsmen or gretchin, it's good, but let's face it, you want to disengage from Banshees, Berserker or Ork Mobs.

 

+1 to Ld ? (ie Ld 9 all around) You need to have lost at least 4 marines to benefit from it, meaning your combat squad is already dead, and will really be useful in full squad when you start to lose 6 or 7 marines (ie: you squad is already destroyed).

 

The Raven Guard one is strong. The Imperial Fist is REALLY strong (a bit too strong). The Sallies' one is excellent. Iron Hands, 6+ FNP is awesome. The White Scars is devastating. Ours is just crap.

 

Edit : well, it's potent with Primaris units. Or bikes. Basically units that can withstand fire. Coincidence ? I think not.

I hear you,and you're not entirely wrong. But the game is still a shooting game. Anything that helps us, a primarily shooting army, continue to shoot is good. Furthermore, not every unit you wind up fighting is a bunch or berzerkers or a horde of boyz. Often the fight phase is utilized by units like Kroot hounds: units that rush in to disrupt and help further your opponents mastery of other phases but who aren't causing massive casualties. Or by single models who are fighting in a last ditch effort. A tac squad can probably overwhelm a lone character in close combat (that isn't loaded for bear), but why? It may take a couple rounds. Shooting is withiut risk.

No attacks back. No overwatch (which you can force them the take again if they survive). Fall back and rapid fire him to death (and free up your heavy and special weapons to do other things).

 

It's an outstanding rule. Less overtly powerful as the Ravens, but quite good.