Malefic Lords seem promising...

[micahwc]

I brought six to a tournament yesterday. I lost horribly, but the Malefic Lords were the MVPs all three games. First game they killed a Banehammer and a Vendetta with smite/warp flux, second game they crippled two Valkyries; third game they shut down a lot of Grey Knight psychic powers. I wish I could bring them in squads as individually placing them all makes it difficult to go first.

[Akrim]

I brought six to a tournament yesterday. I lost horribly, but the Malefic Lords were the MVPs all three games. First game they killed a Banehammer and a Vendetta with smite/warp flux, second game they crippled two Valkyries; third game they shut down a lot of Grey Knight psychic powers. I wish I could bring them in squads as individually placing them all makes it difficult to go first.

Interesting, were you not using the new format (where the guy who finishes deploying first is +1 to first turn roll)?

[micahwc]

Apparently not. We just went with whoever finished first went first unless the initiative was seized.

[JeffJedi]

Once I read his entry all I could think of was finally using the Heroquest Warlock in 40k.

[Azekai]

Once I read his entry all I could think of was finally using the Heroquest Warlock in 40k.

What a badass miniature. I actually have a heroquest zombie shambling alongside my poxwalkers

[bozo69pd]

Hmm I want to try these guys as they may actually help my Nurgle army do some damage. So far i have been running plague bearers with herald, 100ish pox walkers, Typhus, 2 Dp's and 2 blightdrones.

 

Would bringing about 20 malefic lords be overkill? I was going to use my blight kings models for them.

[Azekai]

 

Would bringing about 20 malefic lords be overkill? I was going to use my blight kings models for them.

Uh... is the Emperor false?

 

 

Maybe start out with 3-4. I wouldn't like to fight 20 proxied Malefic Lords, that seems ridiculous. They are point efficient, yes, but spamming anything to that degree would be pretty frustrating for opponents. You want the person across the table to have fun too.

[N1SB]

Hi guys, thanks a lot for this discussion. You know, R&H was an army I completely overlooked until just fun ideas like this. Here's how what I'm doing with them:

Black Ship Mutineers

Every day, the infamous Black Ships carry thousands of innocent psykers to be sacrificed to the Emperor. Enough is ENOUGH! We do not need the Emperor. We will not FEED the Emperor! Hear our thoughts through the Warp, ye who share our Gifts, and know that though they may take our lives, they cannot take our minds!

If we succeed, we will deny the Emperor his feast. If we fall, we will STILL deny the Emperor his feast! Let the Corpse God starve!

TL;DR - Malefic Lords detachment as escaped Black Ship psykers.

I wish I could bring them in squads as individually placing them all makes it difficult to go first.

Thanks for the tip, Imma put mine in a Chimera or something, so they'll deploy as 1 unit.

Would bringing about 20 malefic lords be overkill? I was going to use my blight kings models for them.

Yeah, I'm curious to roughly how many Malefic Lords we take per 500 points, let's say. I'm sure there's some diminishing returns somewhere, even generally speaking.

[bozo69pd]

 

 

Would bringing about 20 malefic lords be overkill? I was going to use my blight kings models for them.

Uh... is the Emperor false?

 

 

Maybe start out with 3-4. I wouldn't like to fight 20 proxied Malefic Lords, that seems ridiculous. They are point efficient, yes, but spamming anything to that degree would be pretty frustrating for opponents. You want the person across the table to have fun too.

 

Oh no, I do not want my opponent to have fun. I want to crush his filthy Eldar twig body in my slimy gangrenous tentacles. But how will I ever catch all the wind riders... soooo many wind riders.... WITH SMITES OF COURSE!

[CrimsonReign]

did a test run of magnus the red (very durable vs most things) vs equal points of malefic lords (except smite :P ) 

took one round casting just smite - i think they're alright :P

[micahwc]

5 in a supreme command detachment is enough to seriously wound just about anything in the game in one round. 5 attempts to smite averages 8 wounds per turn. Mortal wounds carry over so you could just about wipe an infantry squad, take out just under half a conscript squad, almost wipe a terminator squad, etc. 2 turns of smiting will cripple/kill most vehicles in the game.

 

They are surprisingly decent in close combat with a 4++ save and 3 attacks at WS 4+. They are also really annoying in close combat because excessive wounds are wasted on them since they are individuals. You can blunt a close combat charge by moving one lord closer, and having it take the charge. You maybe lose one lord, but your other 4 can still cast. Also, it's nice to remember that you can still cast psychic powers while stuck in close combat.

 

It's helpful to keep a cultist/militia/mutant squad near them so that they can't be targeted in the shooting phase.

 

I've thought about including them in Valkyries/chimeras both to limit the number of units I have to deploy, but also to help put wounds on whatever I want to fight with my transported unit. 3 Ogryns and 3 Malefic Lords grav chuting out of a Valkyrie in charge range sounds evil.

 

As I mentioned before, I killed a Banehammer using mostly smite. 2 krak missiles took 11 wounds off of it in one turn, and then the rest of it's wounds were taken off by warp flux, and smite from 6 Malefic Lords and one sorcerer.

 

If your opponent didn't bring any psykers and can't deny anything than they are hosed. On the other hand, if you are fighting Grey Knights, you have some potent psychic defense as you will get a lot of attempts to deny the witch.

[micahwc]

In a 500 point list Iimited to 3 detachments I would bring 2 supreme command detachments with 5 Malefic Lords each, and a battalion detachment with 3 squads of 10 Chaos Codex cultists, and 2 Malefic Lords. 12 Malefic Lords will kill any single unit you can bring for under 500 points in 2 turns or less of casting smite/warp flux. Costs 480 points.

[Azekai]

In a 500 point list Iimited to 3 detachments I would bring 2 supreme command detachments with 5 Malefic Lords each, and a battalion detachment with 3 squads of 10 Chaos Codex cultists, and 2 Malefic Lords. 12 Malefic Lords will kill any single unit you can bring for under 500 points in 2 turns or less of casting smite/warp flux. Costs 480 points.

If this is theoretical, fine, but I would never play with someone that did this. You take a list like this, you are playing soccer with steel-toed boots: That's a massacre, not a game. You aren't looking for a good time, you are just looking for the most efficient way to wipe an unprepared schmuck's army off the table as quickly as humanly possible. If you guarantee yourself a win, why bother showing up and rolling dice? 

 

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This applies to resurrecting dinosaurs or cutthroat 40k listbuilding.

[micahwc]

Sorry, that was the answer to the "how many can I bring in a 500 point list" question above. It's theory, or for crushing the soul of your opponent when you are tired of their wind rider spam.

 

Personally I felt kind of bad bringing 6 in a 1500 point tournament, but it was a tournament, and they were the only things that managed to do much of anything over the course of three games. I did not feel bad at all having 6 when I was playing against Grey Knights, and I imagine it would be the same with Thousand Sons.

Edited September 6, 2017 by micahwc

[bozo69pd]

Azekai there are people in my area who come to the shops tournaments bringing the most abusive lists their Codex offers.

[Akrim]

Azekai there are people in my area who come to the shops tournaments bringing the most abusive lists their Codex offers.

Thats fair. We have an ITC tournament community too that goes for more competitive play. I will do it but i prefer to play friendly games. Ususally you can find players that are good for it if you prearrange such a match.

 

We keep a facebook group in my city, great way to find such players/games.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Akrim

[Azekai]

Azekai there are people in my area who come to the shops tournaments bringing the most abusive lists their Codex offers.

I would not bother playing in such things. Life is too short to play out 2-3 hour games with predetermined outcomes. I don't want to say that folks are playing 40k wrong, per say, but they aren't exactly playing it as intended.

 

The game just isn't that robust from a competitive standpoint. As Micah pointed out, you can make an unbeatable army at specific points values by just spamming one efficient unit. It is not particularly challenging as a thought exercise, but when put into practice, the game gets particularly dumb to the point that it undercuts what it even means to play a game.

 

The rules are meant to arbitrate between two people so they aren't just school children knocking over tiny plastic men while making 'pew pew' noises, since that isn't a very good game. There are few social complexities or mental challenges. There is no nuance or sophistication. At the other end of the spectrum, you can also get a poor game if, rather than using the rules as a way of mediating fairness, you use them as a bludgeon to beat the other person with no recourse. That isn't much of a game either, technically speaking. It isn't even being played with another person, not really; the opponent is irrelevant, the real 'game' takes place during army construction. This approach robs the other person of meaningful participation, and hence, fun. Social interaction is either minimal or unnecessary and boils down to how well the other schmuck can handle utter loss.

 

This is what I mean when it is not how the game is intended to be played. It isn't very sportsmanlike to hide behind the rule set and say 'well, the rules allow it, so it must be tolerated. Now take your lumps, because you agreed to play me, you unfortunate bastard.' That is a load of crap, but that mindset seems to have permeated the game like a virus. When I play 40k, I want to play 40k... and I want my opponent to play too.

 

[bozo69pd]

True enough. I think 8th had a good thing going if they stuck to mandatory unit tax. Like basically if you had to take a brigade/battalion to unlock the other things like vanguard or supreme command.

 

Instead right now its more like if you were playing chess and one guy can decide to bring all Knights, and the other decides to bring all Bishops. Unfortunately some codex can bring all Queens lol.

[Perigrin]

I personally think that having to bring one battalion for every other detachment, or one brigade for every 3, would make the game a hell of a lot less busted competitively.

[Azekai]

 

Instead right now its more like if you were playing chess and one guy can decide to bring all Knights, and the other decides to bring all Bishops. Unfortunately some codex can bring all Queens lol.

I think that is a pretty dang apt analogy.

 

I personally think that having to bring one battalion for every other detachment, or one brigade for every 3, would make the game a hell of a lot less busted competitively.

GW's own Grand Tourney sets a limit at three detachments at 2k points, which seems like an elegant way of achieving relative balance. Doesn't fix the heart of the issue, of course, but still a good rule. Pretty hard to spam cheap characters, even if you have 2 supreme command detachments.

[micahwc]

At 2,000 points with only 3 detachments you could "only" bring 13 Malefic Lords, but you would have enough points left over to bring a lot of heavy artillery to go with them.

[N1SB]

Brother Micahwc was just answering my question, as I was curious about my Black Ship Mutineers concept.  I didn't mean to cause stress with a question.

[HeresyBeliever]

I used 3 in last nights in a game in a chimera. 

 

They earn't there points back (including the Chimera and the opponent ignored them initially.

 

So i will be using them again.

 

Love the Chess quote! I am entering local tournaments at 1500/1750 points and personally i think they should introduce a rule that you must inclued either 1  battalion or 1 brigade before you can have anything else, as it is becoming a bit of an arms race. That is not to say there is any auto wins but it would make it more fun I think

[Tamika]

Do you guys think using Tzaangor enlightened as Malefic Lords in a Supreme Command detachment containing a Baneblade, allied to a Battallion of Thousand Sons would be cool?

[spafe]

In the example of scary however many lords in a 500 point list... is that actually good? I fully get how it would rip a knight or superheavy apart... but against another balanced 500 point list would it be that bad?

 

Just knocked up a quick 500 point list of what my guard would look like, its 3 squads, a unit of 5 stormies, CC, stormie officer, HWS of mortars, Griffon, 10 Ratlings and a commie. If they are at range, surely you would be looking at losing a huge amount of those lords fairly quickly, and not be able to kill that much back quick enough.

 

Sorry, I am trying to understand why spamming loads if a good thing, and why its so unbalanced. Or is it more because you can get that into such a small amount of points, and still have huge amounts of points for more bodies too?