BA "Chapter Tactics" Speculation

[LutherMax]

What about 3 dice charge distance for BA jump packs ?

We can but dream!

[Arkhanist]

I can definitely hope for it as a strategem, but not for the chapter tactic - they've been very consistent about having one that affects infantry, bikes and dreads for loyalists and traitors so far.

[Leonaides]

Well thats easy then- 3 dice pick highest 2 for all charges for dreads, infantry and bikes. Could be fun...

[Morticon]

 

 

You are bitter, and it's posts like that that show it. You came in and bitched and whined. If you weren't normally like that with nearly all of your posts I would have thought it was humor, but your history kinda says otherwise.

Posts like this are not needed, wanted or appreciated in the BA forum- valid commentary or otherwise.

 

 

Consider this a verbal warning for yourself and other posters here. Next time we see comments like this, it will go on your official record - same goes for any posters here.

 

Like the majority of BA players here, i'm also super bleak about how we look at the moment- but we WILL endeavour to keep this forum productive, positive and welcoming - as it has always been!

osts like this will

It needs to be fair and even. Presumably the people being excessively negative will also get a warning? Otherwise what's the point?

 

 

Ark and I don't always get on - in fact many of us don't always get on. However he wasn't really being innacurate, and the negativity is no more conducive to a productive environment for forumgoers.

 

It gets hard to even read things in a lot of threads these days due to the vitriol and negativity. I've been a member for long time and it's definitely gotten worse recently.

 

BH, I honestly do appreciate the thoughts and observations, but I care not for the accuracy of his statement.  We have a code of conduct on the B&C and against standard procedure I opted for a call-out and a verbal nudge instead of a straight warning. Judging by his subsequent response, I can see how that was appreciated and it has been noted for future action. 

 

As for the negativity....

 

its all of our duty as contributors to a forum and a community to engage in a productive way.  Expressing frustration is perfectly understandable within the context of what has happened.  The DA forum was for years a very difficult community to be productive in because of their Jervis codex - the same has happened to the BA forum.  

It's not going to continue on my watch.    

 

If posting bleeds out into constant whining and moaning, Id expect the support of frater to either add constructive advice or thoughts or alternatively hit the "report" button if they feel posting quality of certain individuals is declining to the point of becoming toxic. 

 

That's all on this topic. I dont want to derail an otherwise interesting thread any further.

 

[Indefragable]

So the World Eaters traits from the new Chaos Codex makes them quite the blender unit. Appropriate and fluffy.

 

It would be great to see DC get somewhere close to that level of murderization.

 

That being said, half wishlisting and half speculating, I have to think that we will not be a direct Loyalist counterpart the way Black Legion and UM seem to mirror each other, as do Alpha Legion and Ravenguard.

 

Maneuverability, speed, and striking harder and or more accurately, and/or perhaps some sort of defensive/harder-to-hit buffs in melee are all likely options, me thinks.

 

I'm thinking that Deep Strike buffs will be Strategems for us.

[Xenith]

The more I think about it the more I think we'll get the assault after advancing rule that Renegade Marines get.

 

Which will seem good on paper, but in reality we have some small elite squads that rely on overlapping auras, and each of them moving randomly will make it hard to keep them in coherency. I guess it will be nice to have the option to forgo shooting to make what might be a risky charge more likely to succeed.

[Blindhamster]

The more I think about it the more I think we'll get the assault after advancing rule that Renegade Marines get.

 

Which will seem good on paper, but in reality we have some small elite squads that rely on overlapping auras, and each of them moving randomly will make it hard to keep them in coherency. I guess it will be nice to have the option to forgo shooting to make what might be a risky charge more likely to succeed.

Couple that ability with auto bolt rifle intercessors!

[Karhedron]

 

The more I think about it the more I think we'll get the assault after advancing rule that Renegade Marines get.

 

Which will seem good on paper, but in reality we have some small elite squads that rely on overlapping auras, and each of them moving randomly will make it hard to keep them in coherency. I guess it will be nice to have the option to forgo shooting to make what might be a risky charge more likely to succeed.

Couple that ability with auto bolt rifle intercessors!

 

Or squads with flamers and meltas

 

Or even SG with Angelus Bolt Guns (assuming they give the cost of the stupid things).

[Arkangilos]

We don't even know whether Disgustingly Resilient will be their army wide rule or just a very common special rule. Imo you are jumping the gun here when talking about battle forged or not. Let's just wait for it.

Coming back to this!

 

So you were right. And this still leads me to believe we will have a Chapter tactic (army wide), and then Red Thirst (specific units).

[Panzer]

I love being in the right. :D

[Blindhamster]

I imagine we may indeed get "the red thirst" on most units and something else "shock and awe" perhaps.

 

Good call people

[Pendent]

The more I think about it the more I think we'll get the assault after advancing rule that Renegade Marines get.

 

Which will seem good on paper, but in reality we have some small elite squads that rely on overlapping auras, and each of them moving randomly will make it hard to keep them in coherency. I guess it will be nice to have the option to forgo shooting to make what might be a risky charge more likely to succeed.

 

It also makes something like a Fragioso absolutely terrifying. 8+d6 inch move, fire the frag cannon for 2d6 hits and then charge? Yes please.

 

What really makes me so certain that this will be our tactic is how much it will benefit Primaris marines. After all, the current fluff tells us that GW will be pushing Blood Angels heavily toward taking Primaris.  Carbine Reivers suddenly becomes really good, as do Intercessors with the Auto Bolt Rifles. Agressors would be incredibly nasty, both at range and up close. This doesn't even take into account any new special units we might get.

[SM1981]

Just read the Warhammer Community pages updated on Death Gaurds chapter tactics. If that is any indication of the level.of genrosity that GW will be dishing out to faction's then we could end up quite happy.

 

In summary they get:

No penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons

Extended rapid fire to 18 inches

The ability to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty

A psychic power that adds in additional mortal wounds

A psychic power that increases both toughness and strength by 1

As well as their 5+FNP equivalent on all wounds.

 

That is nasty.

 

So with that in mind I'd like our chapter tactic to be a reroll on all failed charges by deep striking units.

And a psychic power that grants Wings of Sanguinius / 18 inch jump to a selected infnatry and / or dreadnought unit.

A psychic power that unleashes rage (+1 attack, +1 strength) a bit like that Litancies ability, but applies to an infantry or dreadnought unit within 18 inches (triggered Red Thirst).

Some sort of deaths trike ability for Death Company.

A better FNP for Death Company.

 

Make it happen GW!

[Blindhamster]

So with that in mind I'd like our chapter tactic to be a reroll on all failed charges by deep striking units.

 

 

wow. no. thats so incredibly niche compared to anything else we've seen.

[Pendent]

 

So with that in mind I'd like our chapter tactic to be a reroll on all failed charges by deep striking units.

And a psychic power that grants Wings of Sanguinius / 18 inch jump to a selected infnatry and / or dreadnought unit.

A psychic power that unleashes rage (+1 attack, +1 strength) a bit like that Litancies ability, but applies to an infantry or dreadnought unit within 18 inches (triggered Red Thirst).

Some sort of deaths trike ability for Death Company.

A better FNP for Death Company.

 

Make it happen GW!

 

That's honestly one of the least appealing ideas I've heard. I don't want to be pigeonholed into alpha strike builds and that is exactly what rerolling charges after a deepstrike would do. Not to mention this would be strictly worse than Black Templars simply rerolling everything.

 

From what we've seen so far they really try to make the tactic fairly simple mechanically but also flexible enough that it can be used in a variety of situations. I keep saying it, but advance and charge would fit us to a tee.

[The Unseen]

While rerolling deep strike charges is quite possibly the worst trait I've seen anyone put forward, being both less powerful and more niche at the same time than anything printed, advance+charge doesn't actually do anything to actually solve our problem.

 

Great!

I still bounce off the enemy units, but now I get to flail like a wet noodle against them in combat slightly faster! Hurray!

 

Getting to combat is easier than its been since 5th.

We do almost nothing when we actually get there, and that's a far bigger problem.

Your never going to make melee as easy to get into as just sitting x inches away with a gun, so that should mean combat is more lethal, but it isn't, at least not for us.

[Pendent]

That's not really how I'd describe our problem with assault. When you prick the correct target for a given unit assault is still really deadly. For instance, with a priest buff/warlord rerolls Sanguinary Guard will shred most T4 and put the hurt on T5 as well, but are obviously a lot less effective against harder targets. The biggest issue I have with them is that they tend to get a single charge off and then get focus fired down because the enemy can just withdraw from combat if it isn't favorable. I really doubt they'll give us the ability to lock other units in combat- taking away agency from the other player just isn't a fun mechanic.

 

My head immediately goes to the Primaris marines when it comes to advance and charge because it means that even our troops have the option to be fast moving assault units- A squad of advancing intercessors is almost as good in assault as a squad of assault, moves 3/4 as far on an average roll, has twice the durability and can actually do appreciable damage with their shooting.I am a huge fan of the idea but it's not even the best thing that the tactic would give us.

 

Think about how much better TH/SS Terminators would be if they didn't have to worry about being kited. Furioso dreadnoughts would have a massive 12" average move, after which they can fire their frag cannon to auto-hit. Literally any weapon with the assault rule would immediately become significantly better and this includes melta guns, might I add.

 

What that rule would give us is a much stronger ability to get our assault units into combats that favor them, and a much enhanced way to make the most of the plethora of assault weapons

[The Unseen]

That's not really how I'd describe our problem with assault. When you prick the correct target for a given unit assault is still really deadly. For instance, with a priest buff/warlord rerolls Sanguinary Guard will shred most T4 and put the hurt on T5 as well, but are obviously a lot less effective against harder targets. The biggest issue I have with them is that they tend to get a single charge off and then get focus fired down because the enemy can just withdraw from combat if it isn't favorable. I really doubt they'll give us the ability to lock other units in combat- taking away agency from the other player just isn't a fun mechanic.

 

My head immediately goes to the Primaris marines when it comes to advance and charge because it means that even our troops have the option to be fast moving assault units- A squad of advancing intercessors is almost as good in assault as a squad of assault, moves 3/4 as far on an average roll, has twice the durability and can actually do appreciable damage with their shooting.I am a huge fan of the idea but it's not even the best thing that the tactic would give us.

 

Think about how much better TH/SS Terminators would be if they didn't have to worry about being kited. Furioso dreadnoughts would have a massive 12" average move, after which they can fire their frag cannon to auto-hit. Literally any weapon with the assault rule would immediately become significantly better and this includes melta guns, might I add.

 

What that rule would give us is a much stronger ability to get our assault units into combats that favor them, and a much enhanced way to make the most of the plethora of assault weapons

Congrats, a 200+ pt melee unit with power weapons and at least 1 100 pt hq character together can murder most meq units.

That doesn't make them good, or even decent.

I'm not impressed.

 

And then you go on and to argue against yourself with the fact that your 300+ pt unit gets shot to pieces the next turn.

Yeah, we know.

And maybe Sanguinary Guard can pull their weight in your meta for you.

But have fun trying to do anything with them versus say ork Boyz or berzerkers, you know, actually good melee units. You'll charge in, using your packs and if we did have it, your advances, to get the charge, great.

Now your guys kill a handful of the enemy, and then your guys all die when they swing back, and you just gave the orks a free pile in and consolidation move towards you.

 

And our troops as assault units?

Ha!

Tactical squads, scouts, and intercessors can't fight their way out of a paper sack, advance before they charge or not. And assault marines aren't much better off.

2 str4 attacks per model is pathetic, when you can take a storm bolter with 4 str4 shots from 12" away for 2 pts.

 

And I don't know what "plethora" of assault weapons your talking about.

Flamers, meltaguns, frag cannons, and...

That's pretty much it.

 

And any unit packing a large number of flamers or meltas are better off not charging so they can shoot again next turn, not charging in with a handful of str4 attacks and getting bogged down.

 

Good positioning and generalmanship can get you into combat this edition, but you can't do anything if your units don't actually kill anything once their in position.

 

Edit: there's a reason were taking dead last or second to last in major tournaments right now.

Cause anything we can do another faction can do better and cheaper.

Edited September 8, 2017 by The Unseen

[Blindhamster]

 

And assault marines aren't much better off.

 

You do realise that actual fighting, Intercessors are amusingly better than assault marines. (Reivers are slightly worse than an assault squad in CC (If using carbines) or a little better (if using knives)).

 

Intercessors have the same number of attacks on every model, except the sergeant, who actually has more.

 

Not saying that either unit is good as a primary CC unit, but used correctly, they are good counter charge/back up units.

 

 

[tychobi]

 

That's not really how I'd describe our problem with assault. When you prick the correct target for a given unit assault is still really deadly. For instance, with a priest buff/warlord rerolls Sanguinary Guard will shred most T4 and put the hurt on T5 as well, but are obviously a lot less effective against harder targets. The biggest issue I have with them is that they tend to get a single charge off and then get focus fired down because the enemy can just withdraw from combat if it isn't favorable. I really doubt they'll give us the ability to lock other units in combat- taking away agency from the other player just isn't a fun mechanic.

 

My head immediately goes to the Primaris marines when it comes to advance and charge because it means that even our troops have the option to be fast moving assault units- A squad of advancing intercessors is almost as good in assault as a squad of assault, moves 3/4 as far on an average roll, has twice the durability and can actually do appreciable damage with their shooting.I am a huge fan of the idea but it's not even the best thing that the tactic would give us.

 

Think about how much better TH/SS Terminators would be if they didn't have to worry about being kited. Furioso dreadnoughts would have a massive 12" average move, after which they can fire their frag cannon to auto-hit. Literally any weapon with the assault rule would immediately become significantly better and this includes melta guns, might I add.

 

What that rule would give us is a much stronger ability to get our assault units into combats that favor them, and a much enhanced way to make the most of the plethora of assault weapons

Congrats, a 200+ pt melee unit with power weapons and at least 1 100 pt hq character together can murder most meq units.

That doesn't make them good, or even decent.

I'm not impressed.

 

And then you go on and to argue against yourself with the fact that your 300+ pt unit gets shot to pieces the next turn.

Yeah, we know.

And maybe Sanguinary Guard can pull their weight in your meta for you.

But have fun trying to do anything with them versus say ork Boyz or berzerkers, you know, actually good melee units. You'll charge in, using your packs and if we did have it, your advances, to get the charge, great.

Now your guys kill a handful of the enemy, and then your guys all die when they swing back, and you just gave the orks a free pile in and consolidation move towards you.

 

And our troops as assault units?

Ha!

Tactical squads, scouts, and intercessors can't fight their way out of a paper sack, advance before they charge or not. And assault marines aren't much better off.

2 str4 attacks per model is pathetic, when you can take a storm bolter with 4 str4 shots from 12" away for 2 pts.

 

And I don't know what "plethora" of assault weapons your talking about.

Flamers, meltaguns, frag cannons, and...

That's pretty much it.

 

And any unit packing a large number of flamers or meltas are better off not charging so they can shoot again next turn, not charging in with a handful of str4 attacks and getting bogged down.

 

Good positioning and generalmanship can get you into combat this edition, but you can't do anything if your units don't actually kill anything once their in position.

 

Edit: there's a reason were taking dead last or second to last in major tournaments right now.

Cause anything we can do another faction can do better and cheaper.

 

All good points. We need a serious and deadly chapter tactic to get back into the meta.  I mean on par with Salamanders at least.  Situational and minor powers like being able to move and shoot heavy weapons no penalty or charge after advancing are not going to cut it.  I really hope they don't just hand us the World Eaters chapter tactic and call it a day but it could work.  I want reroll to wound.  And don't for a minute think it would be too powerful.  UltraSmurfs are still gonna eat us for breakfast.  

[durdle-durdle]

I don't think it would be "reroll to wound," because then lightning claws don't do anything. I could buy like +1 to wound in cc or something like that. Axes would be super spicy if that were the case. Against pretty much any infantry we would be wounding on 2's! I think blood angels should be the chapter that smacks you down in combat. This wouldn't pigeonhole us into non-codex builds, but any unit that gets in assault would be horrifying. +1 strength would be pretty meh, but a full +1 to wound? Now I'm dead 'ard thinking about that.

 

Space wolves get asf

 

Dark angels get full bs overwatch.

 

At least those are the closest ports I could think of from 7th.

[sebs_evo7]

At this point if i get our +1 strength on the charge again I'll be happy

Faster rhinos/razorbacks and advance and charge would also be good

[Charlo]

I'm guessing +1S on the Charge is a given at this point. Hopefully +1A too, so we're at least where we were in 7th :P

 

But seeing the DG rules It certainly feels like they could do better.

[Karhedron]

We really need 2 things at this point. Something to make getting into assault easier/more reliable and something to help us inflict damage once we get there.

[Djangomatic82]

I'm thinking that in order to get us into a more "Killy" position we'd need some mechanic  similar to the other units that are currently premier CC units, so more attacks. Personally, i'd like it to be a second shooting phase on a successful charge after pile in, even if we are within 1" of an enemy unit. It would put all those sexy specialty guns we get as BA to work. Melta Guns on charge, yes. inferno Pistols on charge, definitely. Heavy Flamers on charge, just take my money!