BA "Chapter Tactics" Speculation

[Indefragable]

Some decent ideas in here. The key thing to remember is that an ideal trait affects as many builds and models as possible. Raven Guard have traditionally been kind of shafted since they have a very powerful trait in $th (use Jump Packs in both phases) but it really could only be used on 2x units plus some characters...not ideal.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Morticon in the fact that our core units really need some tweaking and shoring up. It's a tragedy that units like Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and our special Dreads really don't hold their own compared to SM units. See the thread comparing VV, SG, DC, etc... simply put, our special units aren't compelling in comparison.

 

In terms of situational rules...let's face it...we are a bit of situational Faction considering what it takes to actually punch someone in the face in 8th (step 1: survive shooting!). So the wayI see it...considering just how complicated it can be to punch someone in the face...why not make that punch hurt so bad when we finally land it that enemies' faces are coming out of their :cuss ?

 

So, that being said, a few thoughts.

 

-the buff from Sang Priests has grown on me. I really like having buffs that apply whether we charge or are charged. Part of the problem with Furious Charge and even Red Thirst last edition was that you had to get the charge off (far easier said then done) and they only applied in the first round of combat...in an edition where you wanted to stay stuck in combat, The Sang Priest bonus in 8th is brilliant in comparison.

 

-what we really lack is efficient synergy. Sure we can pay 1000pts in auras to make a unit good, but that is not efficient at all. We need abilities that make dudes like Sanguinary Priests, Librarians with Sanguinary discipline, and the Sanguinor the icing on the cake that takes us into competitive territory rather than must-haves that simply make us barely able to hold our own.

 

-thresholds are different this time around. The gap between S5 and S6 is not as big as it was in 7th, and so on. So having Furious Charge + Sang Priest buffs would not be anywhere what it was in 7th.

 

 

Ideas; I'm by no means saying we should have all of these but some combination of a few:

Hidden Content

A)

Encarmine Fury (like in HH): To Wound in melee requires 1 less. Basically, if you need 4's To Wound, you now can wound on 3's, etc... so that means ANY BA unit is wounding ANY enemy unit on no worse than 5's. Combine that with the Sang Priest bubble, and we are now simply, effectively, beautifully one of the deadliest choppy armies in the whole game.

----this makes a ton of senses since it's been "proven" in HH/30k already and it's a real competitive edge that is not game breaking

----DA, SW, GK and so many other power armor units have more weapons that are +1S or so forth than we do. They also tend to have banners or more plentiful buffers that give +1A (s.g. see DA banners). This would make sense why we don't get either of those as much

----Mephiston is wounding pretty much eveything in the game on 2's

----this makes the Sanguinary Ancient exponentially better, which is saying a lot based on how useful he already is

 

B )

Add 3" to Charge ranges. Jump Pack units add 6".

 

C)

Any BA model may move 3" in the Movement phase. This is separate and may be in addition to other Moves or Advancing. For example, an unit arriving from Reserves may still move 3" even though this is normally not allowed. (this could be really powerful since it would effect vehicles, dreads, everything. And it effects all other phases...what's better a re-rollable charge or an extra guaranteeed 3" closer to the enemy?

 

D)

Enemy units are -1 To Hit when targeting any BA unit with the Fly keyword (also compensates us for only having one Flyer. Note this would mean Jump units are harder to shoot AND stab. Hmmmm....)

 

E)

Enemy units must re-roll all successful To Hit rolls made against BA units in the same game Round the BA unit arrived from Reserves (Deep Strike).

 

F)

BA units always fight first in the Fight subphase unless an enemy unit has a similar rule (ouch!).

 

G)

If an enemy unit Falls Back, the BA unit which was locked in combat with that enemy unit may immediately Charge even though it is the other player's turn (would have to find a way to word it appropriately).

 

H)

BA vehicles may Advance and shoot in the same turn even though this is normally not possible. In addition, BA vehicles with the Fly keyword may pivot twice in the same Turn even though this is normally not possible.

 

H)

Rather then firing overwatch, any BA unit may counter-charge the enemy. Roll for Charge like normal even though it is not your turn

 

I)

If an enemy unit was hit by 2 or more BA units in the Shooting phase, then all friendly BA units may re-roll Charge rolls against that unit (this gives the idea of Tactical squads suppressing the enemy).

 

J)

BA units that fail a Morale test may immediately Shoot as if it were the Shooting phase or attack as if it were the start of the Fight phase again.

 

K)

Any BA unit that is within 6" of an enemy unit that failed a Morale test may immediately Shoot as if it were the Shooting phase. If a BA unit is locked in combat with enemy unit that failed a Morale test, the BA unit may immediately attack again as if it were the start of the Fight phase, if an enemy unit that was locked in combat with a BA unit was wiped or as a result of a failed Morale test, than the BA unit may consolidate up to 6" towards an enemy unit and attack them as if it were the start of the Fight phase if possible.

 

L)

BA units armed with pistols may fire them in the Fight phase after they have successfully charged, even thought this is normally not allowed (not my favorite but since GW seems to want to make use the pistol faction...and this would also greatly justify the cost of inferno pistols and hand flamers).

 

I personally like some combination of A, C, D, F, and/or H. Have I mentioned how much I love Encarmine Fury?

Edited July 17, 2017 by Indefragable

[LutherMax]

An ability akin to advancing then still charging would really show off our shock and awe tactics.

I like this idea a lot - it fits the speed theme, affects all units and helps with one of the issues we had all through 7th - actually getting in to combat.

 

It has the same net benefit as a bonus to charge range but has the penalty that you sacrifice shooting, which makes it more realistic to expect we might actually get it. And how many times have you not bothered to shoot anyway to avoid lengthening your charge distance? In 8th of course you can shoot one unit and charge another, but it's still a sacrifice I'd be willing to make if I went all out Assault with my list.

 

 

Edit: I also like some of those suggestions Indy!

Edited July 17, 2017 by LutherMax

[Charlo]

I retract my previous statement of just giving us Furious Charge, I had forgotten about priest bubbles entirely!

 

I'm fully with Morticon on making our unique units a little easier to stomach, rather than leaving them in the dust and getting our chapter tactics right. The Furioso is in a real bad way right now and the DCD is only good with pod investment, Lemartes and a gimmicky (albeit effective) combo. Libby Dread is cool in that it can't be targeted because character and is quite tough with a possible 4++, but it's output is sorely lacking with only 3 attacks, even if they are S10 AP4 3D. But enough about those from this Lamenting Dread-head...

 

Distilling the nature of the Blood Angel's is a hard one. We aren't as clear cut as the other first founding chapters and we have becomes a bit of a parody of ourselves since the Ward-Dex, which I will gladly go on record as saying I love right now - yes, it was extreme but it gave us some real flavour. 

 

Upfront warning, this is more of a ramble than anything hugely coherent, but maybe we can find something in this:

 

I think anything to do with movement outside of Overcharged engines and Jump packs isn't "right". We aren't naturally faster than any other chapter. With initiative gone we've lost our traditional Red Thirst boost so that avenue is gone. I'm hesitant to do anything like Counter attack as that is (as far as we know) the Wolves bag as well as Khorne Daemons.

 

A flat +1 to wound sounds great on paper, but because of the way the wound charts work this edition it's a touch OP. In heresy it works because you're either killing basic humans or something like automata. In 40k with the new system suddenly you're wounding imperial Knights on a 4+ with a priest around with chainswords... That ain't right!

 

Falling back and charging (Hit & Run style) is a step in the right direction, but feels a touch Raven Guard/ White Scars to me. Raven Guard are the Death by 1000 strikes, the Knife to the Throat in the Dark. Blood Angels are the FIRE AND THUNDER from the heavens and that is the feel I'd like to convey.

 

I quite like the idea of if an enemy falls back, every model in the unit can make a single attack against them to represent our ferocity and blood lust while in combat, sort of the opposite to Ultras falling back and being able to shoot with a -1.

 

While yes, making a lot of our traits around jump packs pidgeon holes us a bit, I don't think this is a bad thing - 90% of our special units have pack and it's the hallmark of our chapter. I really like -1 to hit them on the drop. Maybe something akin to HoW too for jump packers to account for our crushing charges (could literally be the same rule as the Primaris dudes too, though that is QUITE powerful).

 

Our heroes should get a bigger Heroic intervention move/ radius, maybe 6" instead of 3" - that would be a little fluffy amendment!

 

Maybe our characters could get a FNP when they are reduced to 1 wound to represent a last-standy type deal?

 

UPDATE: Just read the Advance & Charge thing: I'm really torn on this one. I suppose there are two ways of looking at it:

• Are we being faster than normal marines?
• OR are we foregoing shooting as the Thirst overtakes us and we disregard ranged attacks to get to combat faster?

Maybe this is a rule for infantry instead of Jump packers? Getting a minimum threat range of 15" all the way up to 30" would be pretty crazy....

Edited July 17, 2017 by Charlo

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think we are over thinking Encarmine Fury. It could be as simple as this:

 

Encarmine Fury: "All models with this ability wound infantry with a +1 modifier in the fight phase up to wounding on a 2+"

 

Or simply make it all non vehicle models.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Indefragable]

<snip>

 

Distilling the nature of the Blood Angel's is a hard one.

<snip>

I think the challenge is translatating but the essence of BA into tabletop game mechanics. That is the tricky part, especially when there are so many other fair-haired children for GW.

 

To me, a boost to movement = prowess in melee because footwork is part of the holy trinity of boxing: footwork, blocking, and hitting. You can't punch someone or you're not in range to punch them and a boost to movement provides a reliable, all-situations boost, Don't forget that functionally speaking in terms of game turns, being able to move is how you set up your own charges while making the enemies' more difficult. "Float like a butterfly..."

 

Secondly, comparing units across Index Imperium 1 it appears that this edition Space Wolves have more bonuses to the Charge and more units that appear designed to always-be-charging. Heck, they basically have Death Company as Troops (Blood Claws). Being the "red wuns go fastah" Faction helps distinguish us by being able to better maneuver and dance away from those types of units while also give us a far better chance to get our own attacks off....at the time and place of our choosing. Compare to Sang Priest buff and how it makes us better in combat regardless of who charged who.

 

Just a thought. I mean heck, is settle for re-rollable Charges but based on the wording of Lemartes rule, I doubt that's going to happen.

 

As for wounding Imperial Knights on 4's with chainswords....

 

 

...so what? This edition has made Shooting incredibly potent and with Cover not providing anywhere near the protection it once did, we need all the help we can get. So what if we can absolutely kill anything in melee no matter what? Getting into melee can be so hard this edition, that as [Morticon stated we need to absolutely mister whatever we actually touch. That's kind of the point: don't let Blood Angels touch you!

[Charlo]

I think we are over thinking Encarmine Fury. It could be as simple as this:

 

Encarmine Fury: "All models with this ability wound infantry with a +1 modifier in the fight phase up to wounding on a 2+"

 

Or simply make it all non vehicle models.

 

Yeah that's a great shout...!

 

Oh and while we're here....

 

Increase the range of the Frag Cannon to 10". At 8" range it's pitiful that we can't use it on the drop.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Charlo

[Jorre]

I dont see why we should have to pick one thing for them to fix!

 

Our unique dudes should be good and we should have a cool chapter tactics that compliments and improves our whole force

[Riggs]

I like alot of what's being said. I'd like to add something very small:

 

RAS as troops again

 

Currently we have 3 options :

1. TAC squads. I think they stink. Want heavy weapons? Get devs. Want special weapons? RAS get 2 for 5 man squad and they're more mobile.

 

2. Scouts. They are super awesome at what they do, but they only do one thing and that's camp and snipe. Maybe you guys have had good experience with melee scouts(lol cuz I haven't).

 

3. Intercessors. Bleh not customizable, and over price imo.

 

It just makes me sad that if i want to make a list with a Battalion (or Emperor forbid a Brigade) I have to take tons of scouts. It's bland. I would love to mix it up a bit and take a few RAS.

 

And yes I know they're subpar compared to VV, but maybe being troops will land them more value because we can fill up those troop slots in a Battalion with them. And mobile plasma has been treating me well in my games.

[Charlo]

I get it, but with the flexible detachments there is no need anymore. Plus it's not exactly fluffy and it wasn't back when it was a thing.

 

We shouldn't have a "get out of jail free card" for the troops slot IMO.

[Arkangilos]

I retract my previous statement of just giving us Furious Charge, I had forgotten about priest bubbles entirely!

 

I'm fully with Morticon on making our unique units a little easier to stomach, rather than leaving them in the dust and getting our chapter tactics right. The Furioso is in a real bad way right now and the DCD is only good with pod investment, Lemartes and a gimmicky (albeit effective) combo. Libby Dread is cool in that it can't be targeted because character and is quite tough with a possible 4++, but it's output is sorely lacking with only 3 attacks, even if they are S10 AP4 3D. But enough about those from this Lamenting Dread-head...

 

Distilling the nature of the Blood Angel's is a hard one. We aren't as clear cut as the other first founding chapters and we have becomes a bit of a parody of ourselves since the Ward-Dex, which I will gladly go on record as saying I love right now - yes, it was extreme but it gave us some real flavour.

 

Upfront warning, this is more of a ramble than anything hugely coherent, but maybe we can find something in this:

 

I think anything to do with movement outside of Overcharged engines and Jump packs isn't "right". We aren't naturally faster than any other chapter. With initiative gone we've lost our traditional Red Thirst boost so that avenue is gone. I'm hesitant to do anything like Counter attack as that is (as far as we know) the Wolves bag as well as Khorne Daemons.

 

A flat +1 to wound sounds great on paper, but because of the way the wound charts work this edition it's a touch OP. In heresy it works because you're either killing basic humans or something like automata. In 40k with the new system suddenly you're wounding imperial Knights on a 4+ with a priest around with chainswords... That ain't right!

 

Falling back and charging (Hit & Run style) is a step in the right direction, but feels a touch Raven Guard/ White Scars to me. Raven Guard are the Death by 1000 strikes, the Knife to the Throat in the Dark. Blood Angels are the FIRE AND THUNDER from the heavens and that is the feel I'd like to convey.

 

I quite like the idea of if an enemy falls back, every model in the unit can make a single attack against them to represent our ferocity and blood lust while in combat, sort of the opposite to Ultras falling back and being able to shoot with a -1.

 

While yes, making a lot of our traits around jump packs pidgeon holes us a bit, I don't think this is a bad thing - 90% of our special units have pack and it's the hallmark of our chapter. I really like -1 to hit them on the drop. Maybe something akin to HoW too for jump packers to account for our crushing charges (could literally be the same rule as the Primaris dudes too, though that is QUITE powerful).

 

Our heroes should get a bigger Heroic intervention move/ radius, maybe 6" instead of 3" - that would be a little fluffy amendment!

 

Maybe our characters could get a FNP when they are reduced to 1 wound to represent a last-standy type deal?

 

UPDATE: Just read the Advance & Charge thing: I'm really torn on this one. I suppose there are two ways of looking at it:

• Are we being faster than normal marines?
• OR are we foregoing shooting as the Thirst overtakes us and we disregard ranged attacks to get to combat faster?

Maybe this is a rule for infantry instead of Jump packers? Getting a minimum threat range of 15" all the way up to 30" would be pretty crazy....

We are foregoing shooting to get closer to the enemy, like in 3rd edition when you rolled a one you were forced to move towards the enemy.

[Karhedron]

Increase the range of the Frag Cannon to 10". At 8" range it's pitiful that we can't use it on the drop.

Considering we cannot Deep Strike our Dreads without a 120 point model from Forgeworld, I don't think this is a big deal really.

[Blindhamster]

Currently we have 3 options :

1. TAC squads. I think they stink. Want heavy weapons? Get devs. Want special weapons? RAS get 2 for 5 man squad and they're more mobile.

 

2. Scouts. They are super awesome at what they do, but they only do one thing and that's camp and snipe. Maybe you guys have had good experience with melee scouts(lol cuz I haven't).

 

3. Intercessors. Bleh not customizable, and over price imo.

 

 

Tactical Squad:

• But seeing as you can split fire this edition, a tactical squad is a whole lot better than its ever been, add a rhino for mobility concerns if desired.
• 2 special weapons isn't better than 1 special and 1 heavy really.

Scouts:

• Melee Scouts just need a storm or something similar to get them into melee, which ours dont have access to. A single unit of sniper scouts is probably almost always a good idea though, for obvious reasons.

Intercessors:

• I highlighted this in a primaris thread over on adeptus astartes, but, you get 7 tacticals, with a flamer on a marine or a power sword on the sergeant, for the same cost you get 5 intercessors.
• The intercessors have 3 more wounds, 3 more attacks, have larger threat range and actually have an AP mod on their guns.
• If you compare to bolter scouts, you could get 9 scouts, the intercessors still have more wounds and more melee attacks, obviously they are a bit behind on shooting at this point, except for the factor that the intercessors still have the longer range and the AP mod in their favour
• If you compare to sniper scouts, you only get 6 of them, sniper scouts have heavy weapons so are even less mobile than intercessors, they technically have a 42" threat range but it makes them less accurate, which means in practice they have the same threat range as intercessors, again the intercessors stock gun is probably better unless you're specifically going for characters.
• They are currently less mobile than their Tactical brethren, but the repulsor will fix that and add a lot of fire power to boot. However due to the 36" threat range, they can afford to be a bit less mobile. 
• I wouldn't be surprised to see primaris in general get some small rule in the codex.
• If intercessors get access to Auto Bolt Rifles, they'll frankly be an auto include for me.

[Charlo]

The only downside of the Intercessors is that their 2 wounds feels like more of a detriment than a boon when 2D firepower is abundant.

 

I wish the Sarge could get a power weapon or something too...

[Blindhamster]

if people opt to target intercessors with their 2d weapons, they arent targetting your vehicles or characters though!

[Indefragable]

I like to think of BA Tacticals, Sternguard, and Devs as sort of the "Army Rangers" to the "Delta Force" of the Vanguard Vets, ASM, DC, etc... at least as portrayed in Black Hawk Down. Their role is to block while the others run the ball, if you will. They are dedicated shooters in a dedicated stabby force.

 

I won't pretend I've found the winning formula for them in on the tabletop, but that's my mental image of them,

 

If all BA could take a combat knife + bolt pistol, especially combined with some form of Encarmine Fury, then I think Tacticals really come into their own. Getting 2x attacks + pistol makes them great line troops who do what Tacticals are meant to do: gun up lanes, take fire for shinier units, and die slowly on Obj. But the BA ones can further deter harassing units and take a few dedicated melee units down with them.

[roodie]

Have you seen the new Raven Guard article on warhammer-community.com? Interesting parts:

 

 

 Kayvaan Shrike, now promoted to Chapter Master of the Raven Guard, allows fellow Raven Guard jump pack units to reroll their charge ranges, helping your Assault Squads, Vanguard Veterans and Inceptors close the distance on key enemy units.

Reivers, on the other hand, are a versatile and powerful unit in a Raven Guard army and function well with other assault units; they’re almost as mobile as jump troops with their grapnel launchers and grav-chutes, with some handy abilities like Terror Troops and shock grenades. If you want to make your own Raven Guard characters, their unique Warlord Trait, Silent Stalker, prevents enemies from firing Overwatch, while the Raven’s Fury Chapter relic allows a jump pack character to move at blistering speeds and reroll charge ranges...

Edited July 17, 2017 by roodie

[Charlo]

RAVEN GUARD CHAPTER TACTICS:

 

If you shoot at them above 12" its a -1 hit. Across the board.

 

They have a strategem that lets them hold units in reserve too and set up in the normal 9.1" away from the enemy.

 

Also the Reivers look TASTY in black 

[Aothaine]

It may be that I really hate fighting guard and tau (and now ultras) who can leave combat with very little downside, but I would love a rule that hurts people who try to run from us. Like if a unit decides to retreat from a blood angels unit, we can make an attack or something.

 

This got me thinking. Maybe our opponent has to pass a leadership test to withdraw from melee with us?

 

Something else I was thinking about is maybe giving us an extra attack with chainswords. So, two bonus attacks with a chainsword. It would really fit Flesh Tearers and Blood Angels I think.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Aothaine

[Xenith]

That chapter tactic is powerful.

 

Maybe BA will get a flat +1 move across the board? That would be fun, and really synergises with our bubbles - easier to rearrange and have them keep up with one another.

[Silverson]

That looks a lot like what people have been hoping for our blood angels.

 

A special rule that I thought would be good for blood angels would be on to wound roll of 6s we do an extra wound. Seems like a buff to all combat infantry tactical squads get a little stronger and our dedicated combat units who usually wield thing like fists etc...have a chance of doing extra d3 damage.

[Sun Reaver]

RAVEN GUARD CHAPTER TACTICS:

 

If you shoot at them above 12" its a -1 hit. Across the board.

 

They have a strategem that lets them hold units in reserve too and set up in the normal 9.1" away from the enemy.

 

Also the Reivers look TASTY in black 

 

-1 hit is even better if it works on Stormravens.... 

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

RAVEN GUARD CHAPTER TACTICS:

 

If you shoot at them above 12" its a -1 hit. Across the board.

 

They have a strategem that lets them hold units in reserve too and set up in the normal 9.1" away from the enemy.

 

Also the Reivers look TASTY in black 

 

-1 hit is even better if it works on Stormravens.... 

 

 

Pretty sure the Chapter Tactics are on infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts.  The good news is that taking away the 'flyer' themed chapter tactic from RG (ie, in 7th they had bonuses to jump packs), that means Blood Angels are pretty much in the clear for a flying themed chapter tactic.  (If you like that kind of thing...which I do)

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

RAVEN GUARD CHAPTER TACTICS:

 

If you shoot at them above 12" its a -1 hit. Across the board.

 

They have a strategem that lets them hold units in reserve too and set up in the normal 9.1" away from the enemy.

 

Also the Reivers look TASTY in black

-1 hit is even better if it works on Stormravens....

Pretty sure the Chapter Tactics are on infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts. The good news is that taking away the 'flyer' themed chapter tactic from RG (ie, in 7th they had bonuses to jump packs), that means Blood Angels are pretty much in the clear for a flying themed chapter tactic. (If you like that kind of thing...which I do)

I am in agreement as are many others. If I were a betting man I would put money down that all BA with the Fly keyword will get some sort of bonus.

[Blindhamster]

I doubt it. Every other chapter tactic has applied at least partially to all infantry, bikes and dreads. I doubt we will be any different.

[Sun Reaver]

Thanks for the correction - totally forgot about that. 

 

I think it would be cool however, in addition to our undisclosed chapter tactic, if there was a bonus to our flyers. Fluff wise, BA and their successors love to "fly" as they feel a kinship with their primarch. 

 

In theory, we should rule the skies. 

 

In addition to jump pack bonuses, maybe we could get a small bonus to our flyers? Maybe something like 3inch extra movement?