Back for 8th. Questions on the Meta

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Greetings Brothers,

 

I have not played since the early days of 6^th, which I found so underwhelming that I stopped playing entirely (a busy work schedule didn't help either.) Now my game group is getting back into it, and 8^th looks very promising, especially if we finally get real legion rules. I've been reading up on the discussions around 8^th and have done a couple games with my Dark Eldar, but now I'm turning towards planning a fresh Chaos army (waiting on the Codex, of course).

 

In 5^th I played a fluffy slaanesh list that was only really competitive against MeQ, and relied on lash. I'm glad to see the the days of lash and oblits are behind us. But what's the new meta game going to be like now? Here are some of the major questions I've come up with so far.

 

 

1) Are specialized lists that maximize one sort of unit still the way to go?

 

In 5^th, and to some extent 6^th, the general philosophy was to aim for saturation of a certain unit type. For example, if you were going to run a lot of armor, you wanted to run as little of anything else as possible in order to overwhelm their limited heavy weapons. Same for horde units. We needed to use lists that were either all in transports, or none. Or were all horde units, or none. All tanks, or none. Etc. is this still the case, or can we actually make more balanced lists now? It seems the ability of even small arms to wound vehicles is a big blow to armor saturation based lists.

 

2) Is this going to be the edition of heavy weapon gun lines/blobs?

 

The impression I'm getting from looking at marine lists in general is that everyone is building heavy weapon blobs. For example, a bunch of devastators and rapier batteries covered with a Deredeo seems very common. Is this edition going to end up being heavy weapon blobs throwing dice at each other, or is it viable to counter these blobs without making your list something so specialized that it can beat heavy weapon blobs, but loses to anything else? Can an all-comers list counter heavy weapon spam?

 

3) Is Forgeworld mandatory?

 

It seems that many Forgeworld versions of units are simply better than their regular versions, and Forgeworld offers a variety of units that seem to be better than other similar options. Often they cost a bit more, but bring so much more firepower and/or utility that it doesn't matter. Main examples being Deredeo and Comtemptor dreads and Rapier batters, and the various flyers. Especially in the heavy support and daemon engine area, Forgeworld seems to just be better. Do we expect them to normally be tournament legal?

 

4) Is there any point to marine troops other than Command Points?

 

It seems that for marines, our CSM/tac marine troops just do not have enough firepower to matter. In previous editions, CSM could be solid due to their bolter, bolt pistol, and chainsword combo, and the effectiveness of meltas and powerfists. But they've lost the first, and the second two have become less efficient due to wound and save mechanic changes. They've gotten a bit cheaper, but transports have gotten more expensive. Compared to elites like Chosen and Cult troops, there just is no contest, especially if you are running a legion that opens up Cult units as troops. It seems that the only real reason to take troops is to try to get a few more Command Points, but that can often be better done with cheaper non-marine units like cultists or daemons.

 

5) Large units vs MSU spam?

 

Speaking of cheaper units, is there a clear winner on fewer large units vs more smaller units? Deployment and some victory point conditions are in favor of the former, but Command Points the latter.

 

6) Transports, yes or no?

 

In previous editions, marines without transports were just cannon fodder. But now things have changed a lot. Cover is less available, Line of Sight is harder to block, transports got a lot more expensive, and you can't move, disembark, and shoot anymore, and there are more other movement options. On the other hand, units are generally harder to wipe with the AP changes, transports can often have more firepower that is worth using (combi weapons), and you can put multiple units in transports to reduce deployment footprint. This also intersects with the previous question about unit saturation. Transports used to be an important part of armor saturation.

 

7) Specialized pure range or pure melee, or hybrid squads?

 

Is it worth equipping squads for hybrid roles? In other words, do I bother putting a power fist on noise marines, or plasma pistols on berserkers? Do I give my helbrute 2x CCW, or 2x ranged weapon, or 1 of each? Do I give chaos terminators combi weapons AND upgraded ccws, or just one?

 

8) Are traditional army compositions competitive?

 

An example of a traditional codex list would be something like Captain, dreadnought, tac squads in rhinos, assault marines, predator, devastators. A high point list might add sternguard, terminators, or a command squad. For chaos it's similar. Is there a place for these generalist, well rounded lists these days? Or do I need to focus on something more specialized, like pure bikers, jump troop spam, etc?

 

9) Ramifications of 2 wound bikers and terminators.

 

Speaking of bikers, it seems like a really big deal that bikers and terminators now have 2 wounds. Bikers were already solid in the past (if you could take them as troops) and terminators had a place as combi-weapon spam (not the most competitive, but could function.) Bikers also benefit from the new rules to fire multiple weapons, and terminators from the new combi weapon rules. Are these units more worth wile now that they are buffed and the force organization penalties for using them are less?

 

10) Cheap Horde units?

 

In the past, there was no reason to take hordes unless you took a lot of them. Now they seem to be available to more people. Chaos has Cultists, Pox Walkers, and Tzaangors (and then various allies.) Do we expect that a solid horde of these sorts of units should be part of most lists? Or only if they are spammed to the point of saturation?

 

 

I have lots more questions about specific units, and have started doing some calculations of various units effectiveness. But this is enough questions for now. Let's talk about meta issues before getting into specific units and match ups. Thank you!

[the jeske]

1) Are specialized lists that maximize one sort of unit still the way to go?

 

 

yes.

 

 

2) Is this going to be the edition of heavy weapon gun lines/blobs?

 

 

No, unless people decide to play without objectives. But there is going to be a lot of chaff and tar pit units. And swarm armies like orcs and nids are a real thing, at least as of begin of edition. Although a lot of depends on definition of gunline, I remember that some people called serpent eldar lists gunlines. If one would use this discription the razor builds marines have are gunlines and will only get better with the new codex.

 

3) Is Forgeworld mandatory?

 

 We are back to 3ed/4th ed version of FW stuff. A ton of FW stuff right now is normal stuff +1 for a negliable number of points. We still have to wait and see if the same will be true later in edition, but when a flyer makes 40+shot and is ~ resilient as a Land Raider one does question oneself, how good new codex rules would have to be for us to avoid taking it.

 

4) Is there any point to marine troops other than Command Points?

 

very army dependant. Orcs, IG or tyranids love their troops. On the other hand if you want to play a primaris space marine army, then not realy. But in general troops are not dead. Heck even knights can use some IG chaff.

 

5) Large units vs MSU spam?

 

 

Same as troops. You play a G-man+razors+dreads+gunboats you play msu. You play tyranids or orcs you play swarm. IG run large units too. For chaos chaff will be run around 20 models too, so probably this counts as swarm too. On the other hand DG/1ksons are msu.

 

6) Transports, yes or no?

 

IMO unless the transport does a very specific thing in the list, or is also a gunboat, it generally aint worth taking. that does not of course mean "cool" stuff can't be done with them. sling shoting, melee blocking [even without special modeling] is a real thing. I just thing that it is just better to run fast moving units. To be more chaos specific I don't think there are many units chaos could be runing that require the use of rhinos, maybe 1ksons, but I don't think 1ksons armies have enough points to run two rhinos. I personaly would rather run spawn and let the son hoof it.

 

7) Specialized pure range or pure melee, or hybrid squads?

 

Best armies are going to do both at the same time. But in general shoty with counter is best right , and not just for chaos. Alfa strike is too strong right now to run a melee list, and most armies are too slow in general to take out a razor spam list fast enough, and if they can reach them fast, they can't deal with flyer lists.

 

 

8) Are traditional army compositions competitive?

 

 

Depends on the rules given. One can make an "old FoC" style razor list that works well. Can't realy do that with chaos marines, specially if someone goes in to some sort of theme list [which right now does not even have extra rules]. Plus there is a ton of good lists that are good and ignore the old style of list building. Flyer lists, 4knights+G-man.

 

 

9) Ramifications of 2 wound bikers and terminators.

 

Chaos terminators=good. bikers=imo meh, not resilient enough, not killy enough, trying to use them for melee ends up in adding so many demons, that playing demons is more viable. If chaos bikers had a weapon like grav gun and we didn't have raptors, they would probably be useful in some sort of lists.

 

 

10) Cheap Horde units?

 

 

for chaos as chaff. using them in an aggresive or objective taking way [like tyranids/orc/IG can do] is not viable right now. But demons can do it, they ain't csm though.

[Prot]

Greetings Brothers,

 

 

 

 

1) Are specialized lists that maximize one sort of unit still the way to go?

 

 

 

Welcome back! I'll try to answer your questions, but be forewarned my answers come from gameplay. I'm not a fan of theory hammer at all so take that for what it's worth...  as with all my strategic discussions, my answers are results driven.

 

- No. But it can be... A very good mix is still solid, but in some codexes, some units are extremely flexible on their own, thus rewarding repetition ad nauseam.  But this comes in many shapes and sizes... 3 Knights is extremely good and typically goes first. 180 Orks is also good, but obviously for very different reasons.    

 

 

 

 

2) Is this going to be the edition of heavy weapon gun lines/blobs?

 

 

Not in my opinion. This question is too black and white, I think the answer is much more abstract. This is a codex specific question imho. I've played Astra with 100 conscripts/flyers/parking lot and you can't do a heck of a lot against that army. Objectives don't matter... they have a lot access to units that don't require LoS. You simply can't hide from it, and a smart player will spread the conscripts in a way to control a large size of the board, and you can never lock them in CC, and never break them. 

 

Could you make this work with Chaos? It doesn't seem so at this point (*using the Chaos Index)

 

   

                  

3) Is Forgeworld mandatory?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so. I've seen some real lemons from Forgeworld, but there are some real gems in there too. They just hit my Soulburner Petard Decimator build HARD by doubling the cost. This shows me it's quite possible they missed some things. There are Eldar units I've seen now that are crazy good for the points. And some stuff is just a head scratcher. 

 

At the end of the day I have to say 'no' because the Questoris Knight is a darn good equalizer if properly supported. Take the Kytan as a comparison... I get very little from it, but that might just be me.

 

 

4) Is there any point to marine troops other than Command Points?

 

It seems that for marines, our CSM/tac marine troops just do not have enough firepower to matter. 

 

 

 

Yes and No. I think you're asking a lot of questions we don't have real answers to yet. That's because we are all literally working out of temporary rule books. 

Take the marine release next week: Ultramarines will use Marine troops to protect firebases, assault shooty units (and withdraw but still be able to shoot) and it appears they will have ObSec. Now this makes Primaris a bit more reasonable, and gives further credence to the vanilla marine. So Chaos Marines have none of these abilities yet so I avoid them... but ask this question again in 2-3 months and the answer could (should) be very different.

 

 

5) Large units vs MSU spam?

 

Speaking of cheaper units, is there a clear winner on fewer large units vs more smaller units? Deployment and some victory point conditions are in favor of the former, but Command Points the latter.

 

 

 

I think you kind of answer your own question here. It's a split. Some Codexes favour large squads, and less of them, some favour MSU cheapies. IE: an aura based army does well to protect  the aura character by spanning a larger squad within 6" outwards to mid table or so while screening any attempt at harming the character.  

 

 

6) Transports, yes or no?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes (unless you are reserves heavy). The transports do a few things.... but to start with they get more of your units + characters into single deployment actions. This helps you go first which is a big thing in 8th. (unless you are playing special rules).

 

Assault based lists need them. Chaos allows double movement and non-reserves mean you are moving faster (typically) in a transport, potentially double distance. The Transport takes the damage. Important: The transport takes the over-watch.

 

I've ran transports into Astra Tanks, Landraider, etc. just to prevent them from shooting next turn and denying overwatch on soft units. 

 

 

7) Specialized pure range or pure melee, or hybrid squads?

 

 

- I can't answer this. I dabble in armies that benefit from all of the above. (1. necrons 2.Marines 3.Chaos =  1. mono build 2. hybrid build 3. Shooty)

 

 

 

8) Are traditional army compositions competitive?

 

 

 

 

 

- Honestly... I don't know what traditional means in 8th. The detachments allow all sorts of specializations and flexibility. Sometimes I feel like 'traditional' marine armies do okay, then I see something 'traditional' from Harlequins and their 'traditional' is very different from my 'traditional'.... and Harlequins are nuts. Yet a 'traditional' Astra army is going to give the Harlies problems... Take that for what its worth. I'd say; See answer to question 1 on this one.

 

 

 

9) Ramifications of 2 wound bikers and terminators.

 

 

 

 

 

- Bikes I've had mixed results from with different armies. I need more testing. Deathwatch bikes have been my most successful, Chaos my least successful. 

- Terminators. They're one of my favorite units in the game, always have been for background reasons, and gameplay has always lacked a bit. So I'm a bit biased when I say this but I love Termies in this edition. They can easily get in over their heads if you're not careful, BUT used like a scalpel they are quite capable and I feel a very balanced unit.. they feel like they're in a great spot right now and could get better in the future.

 

 

10) Cheap Horde units?

 

In the past, there was no reason to take hordes unless you took a lot of them. Now they seem to be available to more people. Chaos has Cultists, Pox Walkers, and Tzaangors (and then various allies.) Do we expect that a solid horde of these sorts of units should be part of most lists? Or only if they are spammed to the point of saturation?

 

 

- Cheap units are great, period. Especially since we're talking about Chaos where the elite costs of the army often rob us of board control. But specifics? This is hard to answer but I've played multiple games with Cultists, Tzaangors, and Poxwalkers (and more recently Horrors).

 

The worst thing I would say about any of the above is Morale. Breaking morale in this edition is nasty. So small squads hurt less to break. However, remember earlier I said Aura characters work well with large chaff units? This would be one of those times where large cheap units make sense. Take Abaddon offsetting morale in massive cultists squads; take Typhus in buffing large, fearless, Poxwalker units and they perform much better.... and finally Magnus or Ahriman re-rolling 1's on Tzaangors can be surprisingly resilient and incredibly annoying to your opponents' high end fire power (5++).

 

So the answer again imho is right in the middle.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I don't mean to sound glib; you are asking a lot of good questions but in my experience there is no clear cut answer to them because the answer comes from game play, meta, and the armylist you're using. 

 

To me this is good news, because it points to some valuable options when you build a list. This also indicates a better sense of balance in 8th edition. In 7th (and previous editions) there was one way to play a unit and very little variance in those units (this still exists but to a lesser degree).

 

I hope this helps a bit or at least helps you make some list decisions, and again... welcome back to 40K. I think you picked a great time to come back. :)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Thanks for the answers. It suggests a new question:

 

11) Are Lords of War mandatory? If they bring a Knight, do I need my own? Would I need a huge amount of meltas/lascannons to fight one? Could I expect to have a chance fighting them with a list that could also fight a pure horde army like Green tide?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Thanks for the answers. It suggests a new question:

 

11) Are Lords of War mandatory? If they bring a Knight, do I need my own? Would I need a huge amount of meltas/lascannons to fight one? Could I expect to have a chance fighting them with a list that could also fight a pure horde army like Green tide?

It is quite possible to take down a Knight without having one of your own. Huge number of lascannons or Missile Launchers fired by Infantry is a preferred method where I am. Tarpitting a Knight isn't very viable anymore, and it can Overwatch now, so just kill it from range. 

 

Other things that will help:

 

1. Terminators with a Lord and Sorcerer dropping in to fry it with Prescience/Reroll 1's/Supercharged Combi-Plasma. You will likely have to drop outside rapid fire range, so you'll need to combo with something else to put the finish on.

 

2. Las Predators....at least two. They'll put a hurt on anything (Knights Included) and draw lots of fire.

 

3. Flyers. Specifically things like Storm Eagles or Hell Talons. Just fly a Hell Talon over with Shattercharges and then finish with another unit.

 

4. Smite Spam. Clear a hole in any bubble wrap and get psykers in there in a way that the Knight is the closest enemy (easy if it charges you). Watch the Mortal Wounds pile up.

 

5. If the Knight in question is not a Crusader or two-gun Renegade (which may destroy each individual incoming vehicle in Overwatch), you can swarm it with Maulerfiends, Helbrutes, and/or Defilers. Defilers don't hit as well, but they can wound it on 2's.

 

All of these tactics generally hold true for other superheavies as well.....though watch out if you charge Baneblades....four Twin Heavy Flamers can be painful to ANYTHING.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

So it sounds like I need a pretty serious amount of points dedicated to ranged anti-tank to make it work. That will be a big downside vs infantry based lists. I'm not too worried personally as my gamegroup is mostly local friends and I doubt any of us will run one, but it's still a consideration if I want to play outside that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So it sounds like I need a pretty serious amount of points dedicated to ranged anti-tank to make it work. That will be a big downside vs infantry based lists. I'm not too worried personally as my gamegroup is mostly local friends and I doubt any of us will run one, but it's still a consideration if I want to play outside that.

 

 

Missile launchers, my friend.  Krak missiles are not as good against tanks as lascannons and frag missiles are not as good against infantry as heavy bolters, but krak missiles are better against tanks than heavy bolters and frag missiles are better against infantry than lascannons.

 

Point is, as jack-of-all-trade weapons, they're actually pretty good this edition.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

So it sounds like I need a pretty serious amount of points dedicated to ranged anti-tank to make it work. That will be a big downside vs infantry based lists. I'm not too worried personally as my gamegroup is mostly local friends and I doubt any of us will run one, but it's still a consideration if I want to play outside that.

You'll need the Lascannons anyway for Terminators, Guard Parking Lots, and Tyranid Monsters. Might as well double down.

 

There are people in my local meta who do not go below 12 Lascannons (or equivalents) in a list in this edition.

 

As for Missile Launchers, they are indeed a great all around weapon. They hit very hard in the right hands. I recently faced a list with two packs of Long Fangs with 4 ML's each. That hurt. Bad.

 

ML Havocs with a cheapo Daemon Prince standing by can wreck face. Even better if the Daemon Prince also has Prescience. Hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's. Lots of stuff will die, whether it's armor or hordes.

 

This edition also marks the return of small squads based around a single heavy weapon (since the weapon you get in a five man squad can be Heavy now). Use those to fill Troop slots if you need Command Points. Bonus points for giving the Champion a Combi-Plas.

 

Forgefiends are also good at splitting the difference if you have support characters nearby. Lots of shots for Infantry, but beefy Strength and Damage for the big stuff. 

 

Lasher Maulerfiends are a good compromise if you're planning on charging: big fists for anti-tank and the tentacles to spam lots of attacks and kill dudes.

[Commissar K.]

Yeah pretty much all has been covered. Keep in mind though that meta's differ per playing area and playing still gives the awnsers you need well before going into theory of what could work when. As mentioned Transport CAN be good, things like Knights CAN be a problem. What you can be certain of is that dedicated awnsers in this edition are very good. Marines in general with their Heavy Weapons are good and this also includes the CSM variants with Havocs for example but even Obliterators can get work done and the same applies for Laspreds.

This edition has very few massive gaps in what is good and what is bad. What as a general approach is much more important to understand is that Chaos as a whole is a combined arms faction and that pure spam of X or Y currently isn't a big part of the game anymore. Likewise Chaos needs to adapt tactics depending on what it faces. Out-meleeing Nids and Orks isn't something we can do. Out-shooting Tau or AM isn't something we can do.

What do great however is beat up Imperium in melee (Death to the False Emperor is larger than some mention) and outshoot enough versus the masses like Nids and Orks. In addition to that our Psyic powers are amazing, amongst the best of the game so not using those is just downright not playing to the strenghts of your army.