=][= Unit(s) of the week: Veteran Squads =][=

[duz_]

It has come to the Commissariat's attention that some of you have not being keeping up with your regular training requirements. As such we intend to rectify this immediately by commencing an intensive re-education of the command corps. Failure will not be tolerated!

 

This will be a weekly series of threads aimed at discussing the units available to the Astra Miliatrum in 8th edition. This can become a resource for those finding their feet in 8th and our brothers in arms who have joined the fight in the glorious Imperial Guard.

 

The next series will cover our main battle line units, Troops!

This particular thread will be dedicated to the unsung heroes of the Astra Militarum, the Veteran Squad.

 

These units previously formed the back bone of many lists in 7th edition, in 8th however they have been reassigned to the Elite slot.

Furthermore until (presumably) our codex drops they have lost their doctrine abilities. They are now able to take a Heavy Flamer in addition to the 3 other special weapon choices, Veteran Sgt's are also the only Sgt's than can take a Power Fist.

 

With the new changes to the base infantry / platoon set up and the relocation of Veterans I have been reluctant to take them myself. Scions currently (again IMHO) see to fit the bill much better than Veterans in their current iteration. 

One of the load outs I have been considering which is from a purely entertainment value perspective is, Sgt w/ Power fist + plasma pistol, 3 flamer + heavy flamer in a dual Flamer Chimera and turn them into assault Vets. This would probably only be in Power Level matches though as the points for it would be absurd otherwise.

 

As anyone else been trailing the new Veterans and seen what they can offer?

[P3AKHOUR]

Ive only got 3 squads of veterans in my army and I've yet to paint any of them after 3 years.  I refuse to go hoard, the loss of carapace armour/camo cloaks to me is far harder to take than the FOC changes.  What does everyone think the chances are of doctrines coming back with the codex? On one hand it makes sense as I've heard a lot of other armies will have to wait for their codex to get things like chapter tactics, but from what I've read in "what to expect in your 8th edition codex" articles, its all fluff, orders and psychic abilities, no mention of war gear.  With doctrines really just war gear options, a pessimistic part of me thinks they would have been included in the index if we were gonna get them at all.

[duz_]

I was watching the Warhammer TV gsme between Ultra Marines and Harlequins.

They discussed a lot about all the new special rules and relics in the codex.

I suspect doctrines will be like Chapter Tactics. In the sense that they weren't in the indexes because of expediency, however they will return to the codex possibly with more options.

One can hope at least! Right now they do appear to the poor cousin of a 10 man MT squad.

[KGatch113]

Here's the dish: You only will have options that can be built from units in existing kits. Since carapace armor only exists in stormtrooper kits, which require you to take hotshot lasguns, it looks like Vets lose out on that option. 

 

Camo should be back. I don't see why grenadiers should not as well. 

[NatBrannigan]

Vets are in an odd place aren't they... I'm not sure they'll get doctrines unless they get a new kit with corresponding options for reasons covered by KGatch above.

 

I can see Regimental tactics giving them a boost, perhaps Cadian tactics making them a troops choice to go with Cadia being blown up? Stands to reason that any surviving Cadians will be Veterans from now on right? Leaves Mordians to get the traditionally Cadian improvement to Lasguns, Catachans to get better cover etc etc etc.

 

The problem there is that even if Vets are a troops choice again I don't think they compare that well to Infantry Squads. I run mine every game because I'm dead chuffed with my Kilt wearing models. For some reason they've been invaluable at tying up enemy units in combat. They just don't die! I'm not sure "roll 6's for armour saves" is a valid tactic though.

[WarriorFish]

I tended to use them fairly cheap before so that's not changed, but their special weapons trick has been hurt by the much deserved Stormie improvements. Hopefully they got some treats with the full codex otherwise they'll be stuck as a poor man's Stormtrooper :(

[SgtOrion]

They still have shotguns that aren't available in kits though, right? Maybe we'll receive a new vet kit when the codex comes out. I'd be really happy for some Kasrkin style carapace vets in plastic. 

 

Does anyone prefer normal infantry squads or scions over vets in a mech list? 

[Galron]

I still use them and likely will use more of them in my elysian force since I just picked up a ton of pre-built elysians with special weapons(I despise putting elysians together) so I will likely be using more than the two squads I currently have(melta and plasma). In an elysian list I think vets are still cheaper than scions at 10 men, both have good BS and both DS. Different being using vets and sticking them in valks or my future vendetta I don't feel like I am wasting the extra points scions pay for DSing. Yeah I know elysian vets do actually pay for that, it just doesn't feel that way.

 

Overall I think scions are the better choice between them but I like a more homogenous looking force in this edition of ugly Frankenarmies so vets will be used commonly with scions occasionally filling in for troop slots when I run out of 57 point infantry squads in a brigade list..

 

Another point towards Elysian vets over scions is Breacher charges. Its expensive but helps in a fight if they live to use it.

 

What to arm them with?

I put 3 meltagun squads in valks for their grav chute insertion rule along with an officer to make them reroll ones.

3 Plasma don't need to ride and can use an officer as well when I have the available points. I feel scions do this role better since they actually get armor but they are slightly more costly at 10 men.

Grenade launcher and flamer? I don't see any upsides on these two on either vets or scions.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, something I noticed in the indexes, at least the Imperium 1 Index, was how non codex space marine chapters were set up. It listed the Basic Space Marine units they could use, and then listed the unique units for that chapter. 

 

I suppose GW could go the same route as FW did for the HH books, which was to publish a base space marine list, and then each chapter has additional unique units that give them their own unique flavor. I would say the same would hold true for Guard, with the codex, adding regiments which have unique units.

 

I'd suspect that GW would not use the old method of simply changing something from one FO slot to another, but would likely populate the model line with more kits. Vets always seemed a bit odd to me, and now even more so.

 

Vets were only slightly better than guardsmen, and the issue was that the only thing that made them a better choice than platoons were because you could take less of them for cheaper, you weren't saddled with needing at least 25 models (and around $85) to fill one troops slot. Vets were more versatile, and tougher. 

 

I think that Vets would be really useful as an assault unit, Shotguns with 3 flamers and a HF. A Sv4+ and WS3+ upgrade would really distinguish them from Stormtroopers, since it would give them a role that Stormies are not suited for. 

 

8th edition actually seems to be a more strategic game than 7th. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I find it disappointing that I can no longer field my arbites with shotguns as having carapace armour.  Not that I expect them to make rules specifically for models that haven't been made since 2nd ed... but still, its disappointing.

 

I mean, carapace veterans have been an option since 3rd edition, and it seems strange that they would remove that now.  Hopefully it will return with our actual codex.

 

Inquisitor Psychologis Ruminahui

[Withershadow]

Use Krieg Engineer rules for the Arbites.

[Sawtooth]

What about sniper teams? Do you think vets offer anything there over those filthy ratlings?

[Withershadow]

I feel you need some kind of funky deployment option with snipers, parking them in your deployment zone is not going to give you any decent shots at HQs unless your opponent is incompetent.

[Sawtooth]

That is an excellent point, Withershadow. There goes that idea.

[Gloomfoe]

The main problem with vets is I don't even consider using them until I've filled out all 6 troop slots in a brigade. And at that point I'm looking at other options.

 

But I think this is where you put your Heavy weapons teams. The extra BS means you dont care if you move/disembark, and if you're stationary and getting orders, you're gonna be laying some hurt down.

 

I would play them as "long-range" footsloggers with a H bolter, AC, or lascanon( maybe a mortar even, but the bigger weapons get better with that increased BS). Sniper rifles work here because of the range and cheap upgrade from a lasgun. Also, better BS means you can take the order to reroll wounds, increasing your chance to throw mortal wounds around. Grenade launchers will also work. And if you're feeling rich, plasma.

 

Vets w/Hbolter +3 sniper rifles = 74pts

 

Vets w/AC +3 Grenade launchers = 90pts

 

 

Alternatively they work as an expensive suicide unit. If you cram them into a chimera or valkyrie, give them shotguns, a H flamer, an AC and three plasma and watch them melt anything T7 or below. Its 113 points without a transport for that loadout. Will probably work better in support of a flank than leading a charge of their own.

[Withershadow]

I've dropped this as a suggestion back when the Index first came out, but you could make a decent firebase around Harker and a pair of Catachan veteran squads. Give them lascannons and plasmaguns, add a commander for Bring it Down, and you have 6 overcharged plasma guns and 2 lascannons that re-roll 1s to hit and wound.

[Stylian_StHugh]

Vets are in an odd spot. Only thing I can think for them is load up on 3 flamers and a HF and chuck them in a double flamer Chimera. Couple of those are expensive but major distraction Carnifexes. :cuss, go flyer hunting with them for some extra salty tears  

 

As pointed above, you should always be going for a Brigade with IG at 1.5k+ unless doing something specific like Mech Guard. With 6 units of Infantry or Scions, I have no need for Vets that other units don't generally do better

[DarthWaffle]

Vets are in an odd spot. Only thing I can think for them is load up on 3 flamers and a HF and chuck them in a double flamer Chimera. Couple of those are expensive but major distraction Carnifexes. , go flyer hunting with them for some extra salty tears  

 

As pointed above, you should always be going for a Brigade with IG at 1.5k+ unless doing something specific like Mech Guard. With 6 units of Infantry or Scions, I have no need for Vets that other units don't generally do better

 

Gotta agree with you here. I'm shelving my vets til I see the codex changes. Scions and regular infantry can do what they do better.

[micahwc]

Anyone else think it's funny that heretics can get the old vets as marauders? Marauders with the Heretek option gives you carapace.