=][= Unit(s) of the week: Special Weapons Squads =][=

[duz_]

It has come to the Commissariat's attention that some of you have not being keeping up with your regular training requirements. As such we intend to rectify this immediately by commencing an intensive re-education of the command corps. Failure will not be tolerated!

 

This will be a weekly series of threads aimed at discussing the units available to the Astra Miliatrum in 8th edition. This can become a resource for those finding their feet in 8th and our brothers in arms who have joined the fight in the glorious Imperial Guard.

 

The next series will cover our main battle line units, Troops!

This particular thread will be dedicated to Special Weapons Squads.

 

With the splitting up of the Platoon organization as we know it, Special Weapon Squads have now been declared Elites. At first I was concerned with their reallocation, however given we often lack Elite choices and the new FOC charts this is less of a concern as I originally thought.

Others have been mentioning it and since I found out I cannot use Vendettas for transporting my Ogryns / Bullgryns I have found how I may utilise these teams. 

I am considering running a 2 flyer list, a Valk with Bullgryns and co and a Vendetta with 2 flamer squads in it for end of game objective clearing and scoring. Thanks to the changes to holding objectives (although now C:SM as reintroduced "Objective Secured") I can see the merit in dropping down 12 guardsmen, with 6 auto D6 hit flamers to clear off objects for end of game missions. 

The changes to Sniper rifles I am not sure they are worth it especially on BS4+. Similarly with Plasma and Melta as was the case in 7th, despite the drop in points running them on BS4+ isn't particularly reliable. The humble Grenade Launcher however has been given a reasonable boost and this could also be a possibility to take out T5 multi wound models.

 

The biggest issue for me running these now though and counter to my point earlier, is the fact that Platoon Commanders, Commissars and Bullgryns are what I want to be using my Elite slots for these days. 

 

As anyone been running these units grav-chuting out of Flyers yet?

 

[Gloomfoe]

My question is, can you mix n match special weapons in the same squad? Demo charges interest me, but they are grenades which means you can only throw one per round. I dont see this squad surviving long enough to use all of them. But one demo charge combined with a couple of melta guns would make a sweet suicide unit.

 

Fun fact: demolition charges dont replace your lasgun like the other special weapons.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Gloomfoe

[Withershadow]

The demo charge plus 2 melta SWS squad is better than a 4-man command squad with meltas, while being cheaper, without requiring a commander, and before even factoring using a reroll for the demo charge. The biggest advantage of the command squad in this case, you're not using any of their unique gear, is that there is only 4 of them, thus leaving room for a SWS, command squad, and 2 characters in a transport.

 

I think this is an excellent unit for dropping out of Valkyries and Vendettas, because they are cheap and disposable, and can get within that sweet spot distance unlike deep strikers.

 

The biggest question is how much support to invest for them. For me the following seem to be the best in order.

 

A commander is an obvious and cheapish choice. For melta guys he can buff their accuracy, for flamer squads even with only 3 lasguns firing, with ranked fire that's still 12 shots plus 3D6 auto hitting flamer shots.

 

An officer of the fleet can add some mortal wounds to the melta target, as well as buff a volley from the Valkyrie or vendetta.

 

An astropath can strip cover and either add some mortal wounds to the mix or buff armor saves, although investment in survival may not be the best route given how flimsy they are.

 

A medic in the command squad can bring back special weapons, while a banner can stave off battle shock. I don't know how useful these will truly be given the lack of durability and the command squad being highest priority target.

 

Commissars and Priests don't seem to be a great addition unless you're lugging along Ogryns too.

 

Harker can buff all of them if they are Catachans

 

I have two Vendettas, so the current plan is to run them with Commander, Officer of the Fleet, command squad with 4x meltas, a SWS with demo charge and 2 meltas, and 2 flamer command squads. 30 lasgun shots, 6D6 flamer shots, 6+D6 melta shots, plus two plasma pistols from the characters. Dakka Dakka Dakka.

 

Only thing approaching that kind of devastation from guard dudes are Krieg Engineers and Tempestus Stormtroopers.

[NatBrannigan]

I was thinking of sticking a Flamer Command Squad and Flamer / Demo Charge SWS in a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera for BBQ goodness. I've actually got a Chimera in the mail on it's way so I'll let you know how all that goes!

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm thinking of having a couple with Snipers just to pick away at characters on the cheap and draw fire away from the Conscript blobs.

[Withershadow]

Now that is truly a giant waste of time.  Regular SWSs make awful sniper teams, take deep striking Elysians or just recruit some Ratlings if you want sniper rifles.  Or hire some Mechanicum or Assassins.

[SgtOrion]

I was thinking of running these in paired squads with mixed weapons. Deployed in Chimeras or Valkyries. 

 

So for instance take one squad with 2 flamers and a melta and another squad with 2 meltas and a flamer. Now when they jump out of their transport the enemy has to kill all 12 guys split across 2 squads to remove all of the threatening weapons. I.E. your last man standing can be either a flamer or melta depending on what you need. 

 

Similar pairs could also probably be run as well, for instance mix plasma and grenade launchers for anti infantry and light vehicle duty.   

Edited July 18, 2017 by SgtOrion

[micahwc]

I just don't see the appeal of special weapon squads. If you want snipers there are better alternatives. If you want melta or plasma I think scions are generally better. Higher BS, a better save, they take a troop slot, and they can deep strike. I think a command squad is a better choice even with having to take a commander. It will do the same thing as a special weapon squad, but better. 

 

The only real use I see is if you have just enough points left for a special weapon squad and can't take scions or a command squad or Veterans instead; or maybe if you only have room in a transport for three models? 

Edited July 18, 2017 by micahwc

[WarriorFish]

I think the SWS doesn't win in this codex, too many things doing the same. At least before they benefited from being part of a Troop choice, probably best used for cheap speculative/throw away units :confused:

[mmimzie]

The demo charge plus 2 melta SWS squad is better than a 4-man command squad with meltas, while being cheaper, without requiring a commander, and before even factoring using a reroll for the demo charge.

This is super wrong alittle math hammer and you'll notice that even paying for a platoon commander the vets come out on top and if they need to shoot a flyer thier is no question.

 

 

A special weapons squad with demo charge(can only be used once mind you) and 2 meltas will put out on average 1.5 wounds from the demo charge and 2.3 for the melta gives you 3.8 average damage out out. Giving you .072 damage per point. Which is damage good mind you.

 

However, command squads exist. Who throw out an average of 7 wounds with either of the reroll 1's. And at 93 points for the squad with a platoon command you get .075 Damage per point. Outing the command squad on top.

 

Where the special weapons squad is better I'd that it takes up fewer slots. Also the flamers might be better for the special weapons squad as they have worse BS that they don't have to pay for.

 

(A side note if you understand math both take aim and bring it down do the same thing to your damage out put. Because it's basicly 1/6th more to hit or to wound roll. 1/6th more to hit rolls will result in 1/6th more to wound rolls).

[Withershadow]

You are completely and utterly mistaken, and I will address your errors in turn. :P

 

This is a purely statistical analysis, so fractions are allowed.

 

You're wrong about the amount of damage: Let's say you roll a crappy 3 for the demo charge. 5 attacks at 4+, means 2.5 hits. Conversely, 4 attacks at 3+ means 2.64. That is basically identical already. Any roll 4+ on the demo charge results in more statistical hits (3, 3.5, and 4 respectively).

 

You're wrong about the efficiency per point: the command squad costs 24 points and 48 more for the meltaguns. 72 points / 2.64 hits = 27.3 points per hit. The SWS squad costs 24 points and 29 points for 2 meltas and a demo charge (iirc it's only 5 points). 53/2.5 = 21.2 points per hit, and that's not counting high rolls on the demo charge or the cost of the commander.

 

Being one use is utterly irrelevant: do you really think this squad will survive more than one round? It's 4-6 guardsmen bodies, there will always be some boltguns or a transport stormbolters or something that can be shot at them, and then they melt from casualties and battle shock. No one is going to let super fragile and easy to kill meltaguns run unmolested through their lines, that's just fantasy land.

 

I was thinking of running these in paired squads with mixed weapons. Deployed in Chimeras or Valkyries.

 

So for instance take one squad with 2 flamers and a melta and another squad with 2 meltas and a flamer. Now when they jump out of their transport the enemy has to kill all 12 guys split across 2 squads to remove all of the threatening weapons. I.E. your last man standing can be either a flamer or melta depending on what you need.

 

Similar pairs could also probably be run as well, for instance mix plasma and grenade launchers for anti infantry and light vehicle duty.

 

Mixing weapons is an awful plan, even with split fire you will not have the range to engage all the targets you want. Having them monofocused so you can get close enough to a target and do as much damage as possible is the goal. Thinking some will survive is foolish, even if they don't kill every model, battle shock will take care of the rest. They are meant to be disposable. Edited July 18, 2017 by Withershadow

[mmimzie]

You are completely and utterly mistaken, and I will address your errors in turn. :P

 

This is a purely statistical analysis, so fractions are allowed.

 

You're wrong about the amount of damage: Let's say you roll a crappy 3 for the demo charge. 5 attacks at 4+, means 2.5 hits. Conversely, 4 attacks at 3+ means 2.64. That is basically identical already. Any roll 4+ on the demo charge results in more statistical hits (3, 3.5, and 4 respectively).

 

You're wrong about the efficiency per point: the command squad costs 24 points and 48 more for the meltaguns. 72 points / 2.64 hits = 27.3 points per hit. The SWS squad costs 24 points and 29 points for 2 meltas and a demo charge (iirc it's only 5 points). 53/2.5 = 21.2 points per hit, and that's not counting high rolls on the demo charge or the cost of the commander.

 

Being one use is utterly irrelevant: do you really think this squad will survive more than one round? It's 4-6 guardsmen bodies, there will always be some boltguns or a transport stormbolters or something that can be shot at them, and then they melt from casualties and battle shock. No one is going to let super fragile and easy to kill meltaguns run unmolested through their lines, that's just fantasy land.

 

 

I was thinking of running these in paired squads with mixed weapons. Deployed in Chimeras or Valkyries.

 

So for instance take one squad with 2 flamers and a melta and another squad with 2 meltas and a flamer. Now when they jump out of their transport the enemy has to kill all 12 guys split across 2 squads to remove all of the threatening weapons. I.E. your last man standing can be either a flamer or melta depending on what you need.

 

Similar pairs could also probably be run as well, for instance mix plasma and grenade launchers for anti infantry and light vehicle duty.

 

Mixing weapons is an awful plan, even with split fire you will not have the range to engage all the targets you want. Having them monofocused so you can get close enough to a target and do as much damage as possible is the goal. Thinking some will survive is foolish, even if they don't kill every model, battle shock will take care of the rest. They are meant to be disposable.

First saying things are going to do is the worst 40k argument even more so this edition. Everything dies and the way the points are noe the thought you are the more expensive you are at the cost of damage output.

 

Also quite simply demo charges have a -3 so which matters.

 

Next we also have to beware of... why not just use plasma. If your target doesnt have a 3+ save why not just use plasma. So in our later math consideration we gave to realize that plasma is simply just the best at 4+ armor and less than T7/8. It is so stupidly much better because not only does it math out better than melta at those lower values, but it also has twice the range. Only thing is you don't wanna shoot anything that gives you -1 to hit. So for these purposes we'll stay above the plasma window.

 

Next you need to do the math. I'll lay it out here so that you can see.

 

 

A lemma here to explain a concept on reroll 1's. Reroll 1's to hit is basivly 1/6th more attacks, and is functionally the same as reroll 1's to wound. As 1/6th more attacks will result in 1/6th more hits. Or to show it in math we have

 

(Total damage output) + (1/6th)(total damage putput)= 7/6th damage out put. I'll be using this and if you don't agree with this than its a fundamental issue with your math (or im an idiot who will be embarrassed later. Thier is a statistic different 3and that is variance from the mean, but that is irrelevant for our purposes.

 

T8/3+ (very tough stuff)

4 Vet+plat command buff commander melta 94 pts: bs3+, s8, ap -4, damage 4.5 (two dice pick the highest is about 4.5)

Math: (4 attacks) * (4/6 chance to hit)(1/2 chance to wound) (damage 4.5) ( No armor save) (7/6 reroll 1's damage correction)= 7 damage.

 

Special weapons team 53pts. Demo charge average 3.5 attacks, 4+ BS, st 8, damage 2. AP -3. Melta Same as above.

Math demo charge: 3.5 attacks (1/2 to hit) (1/2 to wound) (5/6 failed armor saves) (2 damage)= 1.46 damage (its actualy worse than I posted previously but I was bring nice and rounded up)

Melta math: 2 attacks (1/2 to hit) (1/2 to wound) (no armor) (4.5 damage)= 2.25 damage (again I believe I was being nice. On my phone so cant check the message I posted before)

 

T7/3+ save (average imperium vehicle)

4 Vet+plat command buff commander melta 94 pts: bs3+, s8, ap -4, damage 4.5 (two dice pick the highest is about 4.5)

Math: (4 attacks) * (4/6 chance to hit)(4/6 chance to wound) (damage 4.5) (no armor save) (7/6 reroll 1's damage correction)= 9.3 damage.

 

Special weapons team 53pts. Demo charge average 3.5 attacks, 4+ BS, st 8, damage 2. AP -3. Melta Same as above.

Math demo charge: 3.5 attacks (1/2 to hit) (4/6 to wound) (5/6 failed armor saves) (2 damage)= 1.94 damage

Melta math: 2 attacks (1/2 to hit) (4/6 to wound) (no armor) (4.5 damage)= 3 damage

 

 

That's the math for you. I'll let you covert to a per points scale, but simply put the command squad had the special weapons squads number. Note this is paying for a platoon command. If I'm paying for a regular command to use first rank second rank on an infantry block. Them I can write that cost off. The reroll 1's buff is actually quite bad and not cost effective almost ever. It's pretty much always better just to bring more models even for plasma. This is why I factor the commander into the command squad costs but if your gonna use the command on your infantry then he super pays for himself, and the command squad becomes out ragously better than the special weapons squad.

[duz_]

Hey guys I think we can have the back and forth on the Math hammer without the "you are wrong / I'm right" barbs thrown in.

 

Besides we all know the dice gods all love to screw with us in the end. Like when I rolled 3 ones for my grav chute entries on my Bullgryns on the weekend, 1/216 yeh right!

[Withershadow]

I didn't read any of that, because basic arithmetic is not subject to debate. If you're going to base an argument on it, at least get the math right. If you're going to pose a counter argument, at least have it make some kind of coherent sense. Why not just use plasma? Because plasma doesn't kill vehicles, high damage roll attacks do. But if command squad spam is more cost efficient in your meta, more power to you, just don't dismiss special weapon squads out of ignorance and lack of experience.

[Withershadow]

Tell you what, play some games, rather than arguing for interpretive arithmetic and abusing under-strength units, and then we can revisit this discussion. SWSs are solid performers with meltas/demo or flamers, in my experience. Command squads do work too, but are more expensive and have conditions on their inclusion. Edited July 18, 2017 by Withershadow

[Altasmurf]

Personally i would like gw to get out of their old mindset and make it so command squads can onyy have 1 special weapon, and 1 heavy weapon team. Then give them a bodyguard rule. This would give allow special weapon squads a reason to exist. A cheap source of special weapons. That's what they bring to the table just right now there are better sources.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Now that is truly a giant waste of time.  Regular SWSs make awful sniper teams, take deep striking Elysians or just recruit some Ratlings if you want sniper rifles.  Or hire some Mechanicum or Assassins.

 

Eh. I don't own Elysians and Ratlings have performed awfully in my local store. Another player uses them and they're guaranteed to be dead before he gets his turn as they're so flimsy and easy to kill.

 

I'm thinking I'll convert a Vindicare, but then I watched one spend an entire game failing to do anything because there wasn't any Infantry Characters for it to Wound on 2+, so it struggled. The idea of the SWS Snipers was a cheap load of withering fire to wear down a Character, control movement and draw fire occasionally.

[duz_]

Vindicares are great when theres characters on the board, somewhat useless when there's not (or he's killed them all)...

If they get to nominate targets when their codex drops it would certainly benefit them!

[CoffeeGrunt]

He spent an entire game vainly trying to kill my Coldstar Commander who, lacking the Infantry Keyword, could only be wounded on 5s by him. It's a big gap in his versatility.

[Withershadow]

 

Now that is truly a giant waste of time.  Regular SWSs make awful sniper teams, take deep striking Elysians or just recruit some Ratlings if you want sniper rifles.  Or hire some Mechanicum or Assassins.

 

Eh. I don't own Elysians and Ratlings have performed awfully in my local store. Another player uses them and they're guaranteed to be dead before he gets his turn as they're so flimsy and easy to kill.

 

I'm thinking I'll convert a Vindicare, but then I watched one spend an entire game failing to do anything because there wasn't any Infantry Characters for it to Wound on 2+, so it struggled. The idea of the SWS Snipers was a cheap load of withering fire to wear down a Character, control movement and draw fire occasionally.

Not surprised about the Ratlings, and I wouldn't expect much from the Elysians either.  Mechanicum has the issue of getting shooting angles since the rangers don't have any mobility tricks.

 

Regarding assassins, I still want to try them, and I feel they will become more useful as factions get their books and special characters.  I have one of each sculpt of the assassins (still scouring the world for that unreleased Cullexus), so I have 11 of the suckers.  I want to run them all in one army. :P