The implications of tournaments

[Adeptus]

Now, if power levels weren't a complete mess from even the most casual balancing point of view people might actually use them. As is it seems to be more balanced to just guess based on stats than use power levels for narrative games.

They kinda work for factions without many options, but just fail with highly customizable units.

 

How so? Lots of people are using power levels and seem to be reporting great success.

[Xwingt65]

Hey everyone, allow me to explain the somewhat ambiguous topic title.

I'm a casual player of 40k, I play with a small group of my best friends typically matched play games of 1500 points. We do this for fun and usually over a few beers. I don't have much of a disposable income for the hobby so the purchase of big models is few and far between for me.

I'm aware of the big tournaments and some of the antics that go on there in terms of power players and those WAAC players. I was told recently that at the moment Stormraven spam lists are pretty popular in 8th and they're seeing some heavy use. I own 1 stormraven and used it on Saturday in a couple of games and I really enjoyed it.

Now, to the point of the topic. Today whilst perusing the Warhammer 40k Facebook page I saw a guy post a comment stating that the cost of flyers is broken citing the stormraven laden lists. He went on to suggest that GW should review the rosters of major tournaments and use these to rebalanced the points cost or rules of units in the game. This struck me as completely unfair. I assumed I'd be in the majority who think that, but was surprised to see a number of folk agreeing. Which has prompted me to post here, should the lists seen at tournaments dictate the game in general? I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this!

What goes on at tournaments, what armies and units are played, and who wins, will influence the game going forward. As they are planning to do a yearly "generals handbook" for 40k. That book will adjust points of stuff that needs rebalancing, and is worked out with the help of tournament players, as is the case in AoS also.

[Finkmilkana]

How so? Lots of people are using power levels and seem to be reporting great success.

It seems to very much depend on the armies in question. On one hand I've seen people complain that the point difference between 2 armies with the same power level sometimes is a super heavy. On the other hand my personal experience both with deathwatch and Inquisition is that I have to very specifically equip my units to get close to balanced. If a squad mit 6 bolt guns is the same power level as a squad with 6 combimelters or thunder hammers it simply can't work out. Or a cheap shooty dw termi squad with sb and power swords the same as as a meele squad with all th/ss. Other armies probably don't have as much of a problem though, different tac squad load outs usually don't have a point difference of factor 3 or 4 after all. Which might be another reason why the primaris all are rather low on options.

[Adeptus]

 

How so? Lots of people are using power levels and seem to be reporting great success.

It seems to very much depend on the armies in question. On one hand I've seen people complain that the point difference between 2 armies with the same power level sometimes is a super heavy. On the other hand my personal experience both with deathwatch and Inquisition is that I have to very specifically equip my units to get close to balanced. If a squad mit 6 bolt guns is the same power level as a squad with 6 combimelters or thunder hammers it simply can't work out. Or a cheap shooty dw termi squad with sb and power swords the same as as a meele squad with all th/ss. Other armies probably don't have as much of a problem though, different tac squad load outs usually don't have a point difference of factor 3 or 4 after all. Which might be another reason why the primaris all are rather low on options.

 

 

The power levels are balanced, so long as you and your opponent take a reasonably similar level of upgrades.

 

One easy way of policing this is to insist on a fairly rigorous adherence to WYSIWYG. Allowing players to count all their models as armed with the biggest and best guns and wargear is a surefire way to break the system. A less easy method of policing power levels is to have all your players approach the game from the same place: to just get weird with it and have fun. If a player starts looking too hard at efficiency and viewing his list with a keen competitive eye, then power levels fall down.

 

So from a casual point of view, playing amongst friends, I think power levels are great. Even for pick-up games with strangers in a store, I think a quick discussion about playing power levels or points should tell you a bit about how your opponent wants to play the game. If they want to use power levels, then they're probably not going to be running a super-efficient list. If they would really like to use points, then you can probably expect a tournament style game. I don't think one way is necessarily better than the other.

[Closet Skeleton]

Upgrade spam isn't a real problem with power levels outside of stuff like tempustus command squads which were clearly an over-sight. Anything that would get over-powered by getting free stuff has a way too high power level (just look at deathcompany who outside of matched play have to be rocking an inferno pistol and thunder hammer each to not be overcosted).

 

Wasting points on upgrades has always been a noob trap, if you're scared that space marine tanks with be getting free storm bolters and hunter killers you really need to relax. The only thing power levels do if stop number crunchers from fiddling around to get the most stuff into the right points cap so even where power levels are exploitable you're just swapping one possibility for optimisation for another.

 

Imperial heavy weapon costs are mostly in such a similar cost range that complaining about power levels is little more than begging; "please, won't you think of the heavy bolters!!!"

[Finkmilkana]

But that is what I mean. Not that I fear someone might bring maximally upgraded squads, but that some armies without a lot of upgrades (more than yo would normally take) are completely overcosted. A lightly armed acolyte, effectively one guardsman with bolted/stormbolter for one power level, compared to a 10 mann guard squad for 3. If I want to play Inquisition with power level I have to upgrade at least most of them with something better or I might directly leave them home. Same with deathwatch, if you normally would play mostly light squads to get bodies and upgrade a few for specialized roles, with power levels you are pretty much forced to only take updgraded squads. Because everything costs as much as an upgraded squad (not something ridiculous like all frag cannons, more like most with combo weapons) would in points. It works for units who might be able to customize a bit but fill mostly one role (Codex SM have tactical and devs with different power level, DW uses kill teams for both), but when you have units that are supposed to fill any role between cheap wounds to heavily armed alpha strikes, power level just break. And if I have to hand tune to make sure all my squads are roughly the same as my enemies squads, what is the power level even there for? That's something I can also do without it. Edited July 23, 2017 by Finkmilkana

[Adeptus]

The formula for working out power levels is basically to find the median point between the cheapest version of a squad and the most expensive version of the same squad, then divide that number by 20.

 

So for Deathwatch, because there can be such an enormous variation, you're better off taking a few decent upgrades.

 

What it means in practical terms is you can just take the models and upgrades you think are cool. You want a squad decked out with storm shields and power mauls? Go nuts. You want a five man Terminator squad with three Assault Cannons and some wrist mounted meltaguns? Bring it on. You want all Stalker Bolters or all combi-weapons, you can do it. Just get weird, and have fun with it. Don't even worry about how much the upgrades cost, just take the ones you think are cool and play the game.

 

On the flipside, what that means is that the power level assigned to the Deathwatch veterans assumes that you will be adding at least a moderate amount of upgrades. So if you're using Power Levels instead of Points then you literally can't have cheap squads to maximise board control and bolter shots, so I can see how that would be kinda sad for a Deathwatch player since bolter shots are actually pretty good with SIA.

 

As an Inquisition player myself, I've totally given up on Acolytes. Just use Astra Militarum troops instead, lol.

[KGatch113]

Well the stormraven spam list has been fixed with a nice rules change. So that's that. 

 

Yes, the game in general should listen to all venues as to what is broken, what is not fun, or what needs to be tweaked.

 

You're saying it is unfair that tournament player's needs will change your fun.

 

Tourney players will say it is unfair that casual player's needs changes their fun. 

 

It's your game, make it fun. 

[StrummersGhost]

Thanks for all your responses. Many valid points raised and it's made me see things from a different perspective! I've been playing 40k for about 3 years now and still at times feel like a bit of a newbie. It's only been recently that I've actually felt like I could partake in a discussion in a public forum about the game. I've only ever played with my close friends so all my experiences have been from very casual games. Didn't realise the full role tournaments etc have in terms of the games maintenance! Although now it seems like it should have been a fairly obvious fact haha.

[Adeptus]

Well the stormraven spam list has been fixed with a nice rules change. So that's that. 

 

Yes, the game in general should listen to all venues as to what is broken, what is not fun, or what needs to be tweaked.

 

You're saying it is unfair that tournament player's needs will change your fun.

 

Tourney players will say it is unfair that casual player's needs changes their fun. 

 

It's your game, make it fun. 

 

What was the Stormraven rules change?

[Finkmilkana]

Not directly the raven, but only having models with the flyer role on board at any time now is auto loose.

[Adeptus]

Nice. I hope no one was silly enough to drop coin on half a dozen Stormravens based on that list!