Primaris or Crusaders

[mechadryad]

So I was working on a list for bringing my 30k Templars to 40k when I hit an important question,

 

What do I take for Troops?

 

Personally I like all my mandatory troops to be the same kind of unit and there's no reason to take Tacticals, so the question remains.

 

The Crusaders get an advantage in access to melee weapons and the ability to get in a Razorback. A twin assault cannon Razorback is excellent and being able to charge from it makes it sooooo much better.

Unfortunately with the way AP works the Crusader practically require a transport to not get gunned down on the approach, meaning either the Razorback has to get in closer then it'd like to or the Crusaders just sit inside until it dies.

 

The Primaris squad doesn't have access to equipment or a transport (yet) but the stats stand out with the experience I've had using Veterans in 30k. That extra attack makes up for a lack of chainsword and the extra wound makes footsloging easier.

That -1AP on the bolt rifle is important too, after using a Fire Raptor I've become hugely aware of that. This puts less stress on assault but the lack of transport or ability to boost their numbers still hurts along with being more expensive.

 

Anyone else care to weigh in?

[Brother Christopher]

I'm a traditionalist, I vote for Crusader Squads simply for their ability to choose swords and pistols. At the current point price, an Initiate and Neophyte are not that much more expensive than a Primarine and allow you for some versatility (either more shots or melee attacks, depending on your preferences). And, you know, this is not a bias opinion at all (I don't like the very concept of Primaris) - I just think that Primaris Tacticals (Intercessors?) have nothing to offer to (something that I'd call) a Black Templars army.

[redmapa]

I agree with Christopher, Primaris troops are not adding anything to our army, specially now that the chapter tactic revolves around assaulting which isnt something Intercessors want to be. Making an army of Reivers may be a better option but in terms of Crusader vs Intercessors then the Crusader squad is definitely the winner for us as they have more versatility and benefit from the chapter tactic.

[Schlitzaf]

Personally I'd run a combination of both. It depends if you MSU your Crusaders, Intercessors are less good. Intercessor I found best in a supporting role to a 13-15 Man Crusader Squad

[Castellan Doren]

The dudes with the new plasma weapons can get scary, but the rest is crappy until the full codex comes out.

[Honda]

Personally I'd run a combination of both. It depends if you MSU your Crusaders, Intercessors are less good. Intercessor I found best in a supporting role to a 13-15 Man Crusader Squad

 

 

This is the approach that I am taking for now until I get more familiar with what is going on. I think there is value in running a detachment/batalion/mosh pit of Primaris and seeing how they do. I like the extra range they have on their guns.

 

The dudes with the new plasma weapons can get scary,

 

 

I look at those and wonder, why wouldn't you try to maximize the number of these in a list? Since I am building lists with Power levels, the incremental change to get the Hellblaster seems to make a lot of sense to me.

 

The Primaris will never be "in" my crusade, but I can see attaching them to my crusade.

[Medjugorje]

I had a nice play with 3x5 Crusadersquads with Multimelta, metlatgun and combimelta in a Land Raider and a Razorback (Lasc.) with Helbrecht. so we have 6 Lasercanon with Rerolls and 10 meltaweapons with rerolls,...

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Pointswise, crusaders are far more efficient than intercessors. You get more models for scoring, more units when MSU, more guns (albeit lower range and AP) and more slots for special/heavy/melee weapons, especially with neophytes.

Hellblasters are no troops choices. And i'd doubt they compare well to an equal amount of points in, say, devastators. Primaris in general seem to be borderline overcosted.

(State of the Index, the Codex might change that)

Edited July 19, 2017 by Marshal Wolfhart

[Honda]

Hellblasters are no troops choices. And i'd doubt they compare well to an equal amount of points in, say, devastators. Primaris in general seem to be borderline overcosted.

 

 

That is true, but there's also a formation/detachment/mosh pit that lets you take Fire support choices and it gives you +1 CP.

 

Your points about Crusader squads are very true, from a cost perspective.

 

That being said, if in an 100 Power level list you charged 9 squads of Hellblasters...I'm wondering if you could make that painful for someone. Again, just thinking out loud as my first game of 8th will be on Saturday.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Crusaders are literally the most versatile Space Marine troop unit in the game in terms of armament. Scouts have deployment on them, but that's really it. Crusaders squads can take Neophytes as meat shields, can be armed with pistols and chainswords for close quarters combat, and can take both a special weapon, heavy weapon, and a combi weapon the Sword Brother at 5 men. That is insane versatility for the price. Not to mention you can take the quite reasonably priced power weapons on a Crusader and your Sword Brother now. 

 

The one and only time I ran 4 or 5 crusader squads in my list as opposed to the minimum of 3 for the battalion, I actually did better in that game than when I took other things like dreadnoughts. 

[Sete]

A shame that Primaris won't have crusaders.

Considering BA SW and DA will have their special units Primaris style, ( I assume) I reckon we should make an effort to have Primaris crusader squads on FB later on.

[d3m01iti0n]

If you have to ask whether or not to run Crusaders should you really be playing Templars??

[Medjugorje]

but maybe we get some special. I mean fluffwise... later on there must be some old Primarines they tell the new ones how to fight... It would be nice again.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

It would be really awesome if we could exchange initiates in the crusader squads for Intercessors. On the other hand two squires for one initiate might be a bit much... :D

I look forward to the actual Primaris boxes, so far as an interested observer. Once i got my stuff done and got some money to spare i might do or not do a purchase after the new kidz have settled in.

[BlackKnight1239]

I think there's an argument for Intercessors as a squad that ends up being more flexible than Crusaders more often than not. For 110pts (if my eye sight doesn't fail me), you get 4 Intercessors with Auto Bolt guns, and a Sergeant with a Power Sword and the same gun. So that's 10 shots always at 24", even if you move. Then 8 attacks at Str 4, and 3 power sword attacks. That is at least as good as both a shooty Crusader squad, and an assaulty Crusader squad (with the same weapons of course).

 

Crusaders have the awesome ability to specialize and make themselves tailored for a specific role, whether that's something like tankbusting or combat, etc. But Intercessors are a opinion for troops that can easily advance, do really well in the middle of the board, and can still be effective in combat.

 

Plus, nice proportions on those models.

[Deadman Wade]

With the amount of shooting in 8th edition any marine that walks without transport, deep strike, jump-pack or bike is as good as dead. So you need this new flying transport, which will cost more points than rhino or razorback, not to mention being more expensive money-wise.

Double amount of wounds doesn't really help, since they get destroyed even by simple autocanons (-1 AP 2 DMG) as easily as tacs and crusaders. 10 shots even with -1 AP get more or less the same results against infantry as bolters and plasma. They can't deal with vehicles, heavy infantry, and being better than tacs/bolter crusaders in melee means nothing, 'cause close combat specialists will kill them anyway.

And their appearance, armor design and weapons look completely different, definetely not BT style.

The only thing primaris marines have that's worth taking is plasma squad. And I'm quite happy with that. The less I see PMarines on tables, the better.

[Medjugorje]

A shame that Primaris won't have crusaders.

Considering BA SW and DA will have their special units Primaris style, ( I assume) I reckon we should make an effort to have Primaris crusader squads on FB later on.

 

already done ))

 

EDIT: How can i take a picture from my computer into here ???

Edited July 23, 2017 by Medjugorje

[Marshal Reinhard]

Coming from someone who only really sees the primaris as a source of truscale marine conversion materials, I have to admit the open hostility to their existance is getting a bit tiring. I myself will not really field anything Primaris, save possibly the dreadnought (which isn't Primaris only anyway afaik) and I understand many others here won't either, but why should that stop anyone else from it, Templar or not? Do we really need all the passive aggressive comments about their existance when others are perfectly within their right to consider them? But I digress.

 

Yes, the lack of close combat options for the Primaris is disappointing, with the intercessor sergeant apparently being able to take powerswords being the only saving grace in that regard. But if we all recall, all boltgun crusader squads are also a thing. Honestly the biggest problem for someone who wants Black Templar Primaris marines is the lack BT themed bits, though we know they can take the old head and shoulderpad options. If you want tabards, you'll be forced to find third party bits or Greenstuff some.

 

Now, if they would just release a Primaris unit with chainswords, a lot of assault themed marine army commanders on the fence would probably accept them more readily...

 

 

EDIT: How can i take a picture from my computer into here ???

 

You could upload to your Gallery here on B&C and then link it from there into a your posts

Edited July 23, 2017 by Reinhard

[Brother Talarian]

I'm really considering some reivers... as I think they look bad ass. It shouldn't be too hard to model some green stuff tabards on to them. Fluffwise I'm thinking of making them the youngest initiates that are overly zealous, or just very zealous initiates that created a pseudo strike-team.. we'll see