Black Templars CT Leaked

[redmapa]

Deep strike restriction is more than 9'' from an enemy, so you'd need a 9'' charge to be within 1'' of the enemy.

[Berzerker88]

 

9" charge actually.

 

 

Is it? I know that you may deep strike at least 9" away from enemy models. Doesn't getting 1" away from an enemy trigger a successful charge? (hence the 8" I wrote about?)

 

I never liked the whole "losing models to trigger righteous zeal" thing. It makes zero sense at all.

The ZEAL is already there, always has been and always will be. It needs no "triggering" of any kind. In so far the new CT are an improvement.

 

 

You may be right, but this seems like a tradition - in some form, this was a thing in our 4th Edition Codex and makes sense that you're zeal gets a turbo boost when you see your battle brother fall - that kind of stuff really may set off a zealous individual to even more zeal!

You have to be MORE than 9" away from the nearest enemy. That generally means 10", but you may end up within 1" of your foe so a 9 inch charge will suffice.

[Othniel's Blade]

That LRC as DT would have been a nice, simple touch.

[Biscuittzz]

There's some good mathhammer done over in the RG forum as the majority of Raven lists utilise Shrike and some jumpers, who he allows to re-roll charges. The re-roll isn't much of a boost to get the charge off in reality. Only really starts to add up when you charge with multiple units at once, so MSU would benefit more imo.

 

As such BT tactics are a bit meh. As others have said I thought you would get a second part as well. Something like " re-rolls to hit if a charge over 9" inches is made", you know along those lines. Maybe a consolidation move bonus? - would showcase their relentless advance.

[Brother Christopher]

Thanks for the clarification on the charges and sorry for the confusion if I introduced any.

 

But honestly, what bothers me most is that (it seems) that basically any Chapter will need to build lists around named characters or relics to play an army it should be (or is it just us, with our excellent High Marshal and Reclusiarch?). A good thing I'm not that much into playing the actual game.

 

Probably it's just me reliving the good old days when we had a decent "chapter tactic" and excellent vows to choose from, to add flavour.

 

Enough of whining from me for today (sorry for this too; this was a frustrating day).

[Deadman Wade]

Don't understand this fascination with UM or Scars tactics.

Close combat is decided in one round, and this means that SM shooty unit is either wiped out, retreated due to morale check or reduced to just a few models. IMO UM tactics is useful only for ranged deathstar-like units (centurions, maybe new ape-like primaris abominations), who got charged, but still has enough firepower. Regular shooty units won't have much left of them after getting charged by melee units, LD bonus is nice though.

I had a game with my berzerkers, they get 4 attacks each with S6 AP-1 axes, even 4-5 of them that get into close combat tear SM units apart in melee (nothing is better than to see those ugly primaris marines getting wiped by 15-year old berzerker models). So yeah, they can retreat with 1-2 models left, no big deal. And that's not orks or nids with their speed and the number of attacks, who just wipe the entire unit without any trouble.

The same for Scars, if your unit needs to fall back after combat, it won't do much even when charging this turn, usually it's almost dead. And with no +attack on charge you only get to strike first, which you can already do on your turn. Some tactical moves, of course, can be made (like retreating, allowing other units to shoot and then trying to finish it in melee), but it's situational at best. Mobility is fine, but nothing to write home about.

Raven Guard tactic is nice, but agains, it's situational. Yes, -1 to hit is huge, and allows melee units to close the distance safely, and it boosts gunlines a little, but it limits rapid fire weapons, so either take those funny primaris tacticals with 15" rapid fire range for 20pts or have your tacs doing nothing. And SM/RG units aren't that good in close combat. So I see it as usefeull, but not OP buff to primaris tacs and dreads.

Salamanders CT is good for MSU, more units = more re-rolls with special weapons.

IF get Ignor Cover, which isn't as important as it was in 7th.

IH get their old CT, but slightly better since it works on S8+ weapons (small chance, but it can help when something like lascannon gets one damage).

And our Black Templars get small, but important re-roll to charge. How many times have you rolled 1" lower than you needed to get in? I had those failed charges more often than I would like, and every one of them was devastating. If you want to get into close combat there's nothing better, except something lik flat + to charge distance, but I haven't seen anything like that yet. And you can expect to charge at least a couple of times in every game even with shooty list. Do you like when your counter-attack fails 'cause you rolled double 1s? Our CT is solid, but situational, it fits aggresive BT style, and at least there's no stupid conditions like losing your marines to get CT bonus we had in 7th.

So far I see no auto-choice in CTs, none is too strong or too weak. Sure, I would like BT to be more different from codex chapters, but what we get is good enough. At least untill we see all stratagems, relics and other chapters and xenos books.

[Marshal Laeroth]

For me, while I wish we got a part two, like many of the other CTs have...I am not too terribly impressed with most of them (I like RGs). I am, however, okay with that. Shows that GW is putting in the effort to keep things balanced. As for the BT chapter tactic, it works just fine for me...since most of my lists are utilizing 1st turn deep strike assault units and I haven't been consistent about getting into combat without that command reroll.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Even if melee is decided within that just one turn, I still find the lackluster number of attacks... lackluster... Wade... Berzerkers output a great number of attacks with decent melee weapons, same applies for Tyranids, same applies for Orks... if I did the same thing with Templars, in the same amount of points as your Berzerkers, no doubt your Berzerkers would literally cut me to ribbons... and that's just the thing, I think we still need those increase in number of attacks in addition to rerolls to get into melee, even with the Fleet ability, we still lack the proper amount of punching power to actually cripple enemies in CC... 1 attack with a power sword can be shrugged off by those Primaris, and the rest of the attacks wouldn't be sufficient to cut through their armor, I reckon we really do need that slight boost in punching power and not just punching reach... and the reason I think that people have been mentioning WS and UM is due to the reach that the Scars got which is huge, and the Ld bonus, which is huge if you factor in the Battleshock damage that they can get, it boosts their survival rate and increase their capacity to fall back and shoot, the Ultramarines definitely got a decent 1-2 combo...

[Marshal_Roujakis]

So given the advice from GW seems to be use deep strikers and the re-roll is amazing just to add a bit of actual maths it turns a 72% chance to fail a 9" charge into a 52% chance to fail a 9" charge.

 

The ability only gets good gains at close range, you know the distances where you were already likely to pass anyway.

 

It seems Matt "I Dislike The Black Templar" Ward has truly reclaimed his crown.

 

On the positive side we technically have not really gotten lower in the overall rankings in the marine codex. We were bottom in 7th and remain there now.

 

We were definitely not bottom in the 7th ed. Codex... the reasoning for many for to consider that we are rock bottom is due to the Librarians and their dumb psychic powers... which they got rid of in 8th... but if playing a game without psykers, Iron Hands get bottom rung instead of Black Templars... we get bonus attacks in melee if we suffered Overwatch or Shooting, they get a FnP 6+, their vehicles can heal HP, but it doesn't matter if they explode with just 1 shot... they were definitely bottom rung in comparison to our Chapter Tactics...

[Lysere]

So given the advice from GW seems to be use deep strikers and the re-roll is amazing just to add a bit of actual maths it turns a 72% chance to fail a 9" charge into a 52% chance to fail a 9" charge.

 

The ability only gets good gains at close range, you know the distances where you were already likely to pass anyway.

 

It seems Matt "I Dislike The Black Templar" Ward has truly reclaimed his crown.

 

On the positive side we technically have not really gotten lower in the overall rankings in the marine codex. We were bottom in 7th and remain there now.

Matt Ward has nothing to do with 40k codices last I saw so unless someone has any proof then it's not a part of this discussion.

 

I'm also curious what people think they could have given us that fits the fluff without being straight up the best choice because there really isn't much. We can already get double the attacks of a tactical or dev squad due to chainswords and have an extra power weapon before we even add in neophytes. We have one of the best character hunters I've seen in action so far, and two strong commanders for different roles.

 

If our stratagem matches with our fluff and works well in combination with our tactic it could make for a solid combo. Until we know that stuff though all we can do is guess.

[Firepower]

So far I am unimpressed.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

So given the advice from GW seems to be use deep strikers and the re-roll is amazing just to add a bit of actual maths it turns a 72% chance to fail a 9" charge into a 52% chance to fail a 9" charge.

 

The ability only gets good gains at close range, you know the distances where you were already likely to pass anyway.

 

It seems Matt "I Dislike The Black Templar" Ward has truly reclaimed his crown.

 

On the positive side we technically have not really gotten lower in the overall rankings in the marine codex. We were bottom in 7th and remain there now.

Matt Ward has nothing to do with 40k codices last I saw so unless someone has any proof then it's not a part of this discussion.

 

I'm also curious what people think they could have given us that fits the fluff without being straight up the best choice because there really isn't much. We can already get double the attacks of a tactical or dev squad due to chainswords and have an extra power weapon before we even add in neophytes. We have one of the best character hunters I've seen in action so far, and two strong commanders for different roles.

 

If our stratagem matches with our fluff and works well in combination with our tactic it could make for a solid combo. Until we know that stuff though all we can do is guess.

 

 

That's the primary issue though... Chapter Tactics is usually what gives a Space Marine army its flavor without having the need to use that Chapters Special Characters... we might get double the number of attack of Tacticals and Devastators, but it really makes nothing special in regards to Terminators and Vanguard Veterans aside for the ability to have a somewhat extended reach when charging... our Power Weapons on Crusader Squads fall flat due to single attacks and if fighting against Primaris (or using Primaris) they would just be equals...

we need that extra flavor in our Chapter Tactic just to have that base taste of a lack Templar army... sure the no psyker rule is there, to add in flavor, but that's more of a basic restriction than anything...

 

A simple extra attack during the turn they charged or additional attack if they suffered a wound during Overwatch would be a good way to balance out Templar armies without resulting in being overpowered, it gives the flavor of Templar armies being overbearing attackers, or zealous Crusaders that fly into a fit of rage over the loss of their brother due to bonds of camaraderie that they have forged fighting as student and teacher or brothers in arms... unlike other Chapters that form squads out of organizational rituals... a boost in attack also puts Crusaders or any other unit +1 in terms of being the melee beast that they should be...

[Vaughn]

Hopefully the warlord trait or strategem provides some force multiplier bonus, like an extra attack on the charge.

 

Also, hopin to see some sort of anti psyker utility in the relic or warlord trait. Maybe being able to deny like a psyker or a bubble that allows offensive psychic powers to be ignored on a 5+.

 

 

Otherwise, SoS will be my new best pals

[bolvar]

I see a lot of fellow brothers arguing that we should have more attacks, more strenght or some kind of reroll missing attacks/failed wounds, or something else instead of being able to reroll failed charges. Some are mentioning BA or even (Emperor forgive them) orks or khorne berzerkers, both in this thread, in the FB page or in other places, for some kind of comparison.

 

Guess what, my zealous brothers? We are not BA, orks nor khorne bersekers. You know very well WHO you are.

 

 

 

We don't need a bucket to throw dices. We never were. I don't remember a single time where I have throwed more dices than my BA friend (comparing with the same number of models of course). More rerolls? Maybe, in the end, we both have chaplains, or another source to reroll, such as vows.

 

 

What I remember is that once in battle, we never fall back. We stride faster than most (remember crusader rule, for example?) to face those who have to be judged (and be found wanting). And of course, we hit them like their kind of xeno/witch/traitor deserve, but not through absurd amounts of dices as BA, khorne berzerkers, or even orks. It was more about quality, through better WS, rerolls, some momentaneus/not permanent extra S buff. Again, guess what? We still have that.

 

 

I have the feeling that our stratagem, our warlord trait and our relic will please us. Give us that extra punch that will please the majority of sceptics that, at least for me, are overreacting a bit.

 

 

Please, check this:

 

 

UM: they have better LD, they can fall back and shoot (*add displeased sound here*)

WS: they advance more, and can charge again after falling back (fitting for them, but not for us)

IF: those hit by IF don't receive cover bonus and reroll to wound buildings (fitting? maybe, but for me, IF have one of the 2 worst CT of this edition, alongside Iron Hands. PD: remember, this is only my opinion)

Salamanders: rerolling one failed hit and wound for every unit in both shooting and melee due to mastercrafted weapons. For me this is one of the best CT, and very fitting.

RG: Opponents subtract 1 from their shoot rolls if their target is more than 12" away. Again, fit of RG and one of the best CT.

IH: 6+ FNP. That's really lacking for me.

 

And now, us: we reroll failed charges.

 

 

Check again all the CT (remember, they are only a fraction of the rules that will affect different chapters). Who's got the most assault-oriented CT of all of those 7 CT?

 

If you said WS or Salamanders, you are not entirely mistaken (their CT help them in assault adding mobility or rerolls), but it is US who got an assault dedicated CT. Only us can deploy deep striking units or bring closer our crusaders via vehicles and have a reliable charge from CT alone.

 

You might be thinking about RG or WS stratagems, which allow them to infiltrate units (and risk them if the enemy seizes the initiative) or allowing bikes (and only bikes as WS chapter focus states) advance and charge. The ones who actually can hit a bit better in melee are Salamanders due to rerolls, but that's it.

 

We still don't know our stratagem, so we can get an ever better stratagem than them to make us better in melee combat (and I could bet that we'll get it)

 

We know a thing or two about faith, so let's put it into work and patiently wait until we know our full rules. We'll not be dissapointed.

[Kontakt]

One leak and everyone rages about how we have been mistreated. I am ashamed of this. Under the codex, we will be better than if we were operating from the index, yet many of our numbers are throwing tantrums and declaring all kinds of crazy things. I can't see the new codex or any of its many, many rules. How can we declare anything with such anger, when we do not even have all the facts? I ask you to stop acting like Grimaldus, abandoned by Helbrecht on Armageddon, and start acting like Grimaldus, Hero of Helsreach.

 

I came here to have fun and talk about how awesome templars are. I'm taking a break from the templar section of the forum. 

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think I will be disappointed... if my only main tactic to get that additional boost to power in melee is to always have Helbrecht in my army... I don't really like fielding Special Characters aside for the Emperor's Champion, sure they provide good boosts, but what's the point of having the chance to create your own generic character if the only good option to get incentives in melee is to use Special Characters?

 

I'm actually quite disappointed mainly because the reroll to Assault distance is already achievable with Command Points, relegating nothing new to what Templars can actually do... if you use the Command Points to reroll charges in combat, you get NOTHING out of Chapter Tactics... I think this is where majority of my gripe comes from, we lack any sort of additional punch unless your army is essentially all Elites... I actually feel more Vanilla in comparison to what the Ultramarines are having, which actually changes their stats by adding 1 to leadership...

[bolvar]

Command reroll isn't the only one existing stratagem, and it's there for more rerolls than only assault ones. We still have insane bravado, counter-offensive, mission specific stratagems, extra stuff maybe coming from campaigns or other sources. I've remembered that there will be too a stratagem to upgrade a castellan to marshal (captain -> chapter master), maybe even more stuff from SM codex and one still unknown BT only stratagem. It could be something that we want to amass as much CPs as possible like RG, so we can use it as much as we can before battle, or at least have a healthy amount for something that we'll want to use in key points during the game, like WS one.

 

Salamanders could say the same Marshal_Roujakis: that they have nothing because they can reroll that failed hit/wound melta weapon or thunder hammer. But it's not that we don't have anything if we use the command reroll, is that we have free rerolls so we don't have to use all our CP in command rerolls.

[Firepower]

Without some way to counter Battle Shock against our large squads (preferably a Stratagem rather than something we have to pay for), I will be annoyed.  I'm not mad about our CT, just unimpressed.  I am annoyed that we lost dedicated LRCs though.

[balordazul]

Bolvar, 

 

I'm not sure if you ever played with the old BT codex be we were on par with BA and World Eaters.  It really has only been the inclusion into codex SM that we lost a lot.  At the end we were suffering from being over pointed but heck even in 5th I kicked backside in CC better than BA and Khonre.  Ok, minus the BA Deathcomapy deathstar out of a storm raven.  But until 6th ed rolled around and we got rolled along with the errata nerfing for 6 months we were a good codex even if we were over costed.  

 

Also BT was one of the most interesting codexes for many years on restrictions and composition.  It took 5th codex relaunches to have us not stand out so much.  

 

Right now in the last two versions of BT in codex SM we are just angry black marines with nothing special and not close to BA, Khorne, or Wolves.  But that is not the army that most of us fell in love with.   

[Kisada]

Maybe Grimaldus will get an upgrade to his rules and get what Asmodai has ... re-roll failed hits AND +1 attack ... but then Asmodai is 25 more points than Grim.

Without some way to counter Battle Shock against our large squads (preferably a Stratagem rather than something we have to pay for), I will be annoyed.  I'm not mad about our CT, just unimpressed.  I am annoyed that we lost dedicated LRCs though.

 

Why is dedicated LRC such a big deal? 

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think the BT specific one is for countering Psychic powers... it would make sense...

 

In regards to the Salamanders, it's not just a Melta or a Thunder Hammer, it's for 1 of the units weapons... be it a Plasma Overcharge, a Power Sword, or even a reroll to wound for a Flamer... it isn't much but it can always be felt... makes them master artificers conceptually since their weapons are better forged and are much more effective...

 

Raven Guards are always felt because it gives them that stealth feel, giving them the feel of having an army that hides in the shadows never truly seen until its too late...

 

The Ultramarines even have the +1 Ld. showing commendable morale especially given that their Primarch has returned...

 

everyone has their own flavor that SHOWS during the game and is conceptually felt throughout an entire game turn...

 

Templars on the other hand have a reroll charge distance, which can only be rerolled if we fail charge distance, not A fail, but failed in general, which means that a multi-charging unit which passes 1 charge distance but fails all else, will not count for rerolls... it's also not felt throughout the entire game... if I had NO melee oriented units in my army and played like old style Laeroth, I really don't gain anything by playing Black Templars, unlike White Scars which gives me a boost to advancing even without Bikes, or Imperial Fists which boosts all shooting attacks... Templars need an incentive that is much more flexible than what they have given us, not just a temporary boost that we may or may not need, sure it's kind of big, and lowers the chance of not making that charge... but what's the point of making that charge if you can't hit hard enough so that the enemy is ruined enough not to be able to hit back?

 

I'm not saying turn us into Khorne Berzerkers, which we'll never be, nor turn us into Blood Angels, which we aren't, but at the least to give us some incentive so that we can actually be on par with their weakest melee-centric unit... which we aren't even at all...

 

I'd like to atleast have a Chapter Trait, where the incentives would be useful and flavorful enough to warrant me not using Special Characters to feel like a Black Templars force... I'd like to have my flavors back please and not be just the equivalent of the Index version with some relics and Warlord Traits...

[Vaughn]

The red means shame.

 

We are shamed

[Lysere]

Rerolling charges feels perfectly fluffy to me without being too strong for a permanent bonus that is applied to the vast majority of our units. Anything else that relates to our older rules would simply be way too strong for that.

 

And we've never been the hardest hitting army in melee, we've never had the most attacks. Our two melee oriented vows were +1 S/-1 I or hit on 3+ always, at least when I first grabbed the codex.

 

We already hit on a 3+ now if not better in spots, and the +1 S would be very strong for a passive buff. In exchange our characters are better than ever, our crusader squad is cheaper than ever due to reasonable power weapon costs, and our Land raiders finally feel like they should.

 

I do hope our remaining unique options give us bonuses that work well without overlapping with our characters.

 

Also remember the 15 or so stratagems all marines got that we still don't know about. If we have a basic one that boosts melee capabilities in there for a turn then we'll be one of the best at using it since we'll want to be in combat anyway and can reliably get there.

 

We do also have the cheapest way to simply ignore morale assuming you can keep the cenobytes hidden and the enemy doesn't have artillery.

 

Also rerolling charges seems like the best way to combine righteous zeal and Accept Any Challenge for now. It's not a matter of should you charge, but did you make it.

[Firepower]

Isn't name calling a no-no, Honda?

[Castellan Doren]

 

 

That white scar tactic has me jealous.

No mate, we don't fall back!

And we don't fall forward either.

 

Being able to leave combat is awesome. It's like having the fly rule. We can go somewhere else id we don't crush that unit in one shot.

 

I been abusing the fly rule with my assault marines. I'm not falling back, i'm charging in another direction. Usually to severely weaken one unit, then slam another the next turn.