Black Templars CT Leaked

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Guess what, my zealous brothers? We are not BA, orks nor khorne bersekers. You know very well WHO you are.

 

 

 

 

yes... we are Marines like BA they prefer close combat and should be good there. But instead of BA we are not.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Question: Would gaining something anti psyker deny the witch thingy actually be fluffy for us? Like, in the fluff, have we ever stopped a psyker from casting a power in any way beyond jamming a chainsword upside their skull?

[Firepower]

In the lore, BA have always been the best at melee.  Rules wise, less so.  We don't have to have the best melee powers in the game to match up with BT fluff.  Let's not ask for the moon like we're a bunch of Wolves. ;)

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

We don't need a bucket to throw dices. We never were. I don't remember a single time where I have throwed more dices than my BA friend (comparing with the same number of models of course). More rerolls? Maybe, in the end, we both have chaplains, or another source to reroll, such as vows.

 

 

...

in 7th Edition we get 3to4 attacks with rerolls (gathering storm)....

 

hahaha... STARTING 6th edtition, we get 2 extraattacks with a special Vow and then with Grimaldus we get one extra attack in game, so we used to have 5 attacks that with reroll in charge.

 

in 5th Edition we had 3 attacks, without any charakter we had rerolls to hit...

 

in 4th Edtion we had still 3 attacks and always hittin on a 3+

 

so - they ve been always better then now.

[Schlitzaf]

As I said on Facebook the tactic isn't bad. It just doesn't feel Templarly. It's makes us too Assault focused. Rather gotten something to play to our existing strength.

[balordazul]

Well it is good people have opinions on topics like this.  If some people are not happy then they can let GW know on their community outlet via the official GW FB page.  If people are happy they can cheer all they want and good for them as this is what they are looking for.

 

The issue is when we don't get a reaction or people are apathetic about it and that is when a faction dies.  

[Medjugorje]

Maybe Grimaldus will get an upgrade to his rules and get what Asmodai has ... re-roll failed hits AND +1 attack ... but then Asmodai is 25 more points than Grim.

Without some way to counter Battle Shock against our large squads (preferably a Stratagem rather than something we have to pay for), I will be annoyed.  I'm not mad about our CT, just unimpressed.  I am annoyed that we lost dedicated LRCs though.

 

Why is dedicated LRC such a big deal? 

 

a period we were the only one with LRC... and then we were the only ones with LRC in troop-slot until the BA take that.

 

in 6th Edition only Troop choices can hold marker and in 7th edition troops had a special rule - and lrc were troopchoices for Black Templars...

 

And now everyone can use our own LRC - we lost the last thing that made LRC special to BT.

[Medjugorje]

we are angry and we will talk about a crusade into nottingham.

 

that is my ZEAL

[BlackKnight1239]

we are angry and we will talk about a crusade into nottingham.

 

that is my ZEAL

 

My dude, it's a game.

 

This does represent a pretty big change for the Black Templars though. I think it's fair to say that while the BT's wasn't with close combat specialists, but rather a weight of numbers of decent CC units; literally a Marine version of Orks to some degree. Now, it's the reverse. I think successful Templar lists are going to be about using the charge re-roll to get faster combat specialists in where they do damage. It is WAY easier in 8th to absorb a charge if it doesn't force a Leadership test, so I'm not certain relying on Crusader Squads like was common previously will help.

 

Deep striking units and drop pods seem to gain a whole bunch in a Templar list, though. You double the ability for those units to get into combat turn one. Vanguard Vets and Assault Terminators are going to be BT's bread and butter, I think.

[Medjugorje]

 

we are angry and we will talk about a crusade into nottingham.

 

that is my ZEAL

 

My dude, it's a game.

 

Deep striking units and drop pods seem to gain a whole bunch in a Templar list, though. You double the ability for those units to get into combat turn one. Vanguard Vets and Assault Terminators are going to be BT's bread and butter, I think.

 

 

at first - its a game where i invested so many time because of something special. And that special thing is not there anymore - so I have the right to be pissed off.

 

on secound - yes, i think Vanguard Vets and Assault Terminators are the Units that have most style to BT-lists. But i would not wonder if vanguard have the special rule to reroll charge moves... It would be so frustrating...

 

[SydonianDragoon404]

My personal opinion on our chapter tactic-

 

I like it, it's much better than what we had in 7th edition. I don't really have anything to complain about here. This would have really helped me out quite a bit in a few of my games, being able to re-roll that charge distance is great because I often roll pretty terrible for those 4, 5, 6 inch charges where normally you're like "oh yeah I'll make this no problem" and I roll snake eyes or a 3. 

 

Raven Guard have an absolutely disgustingly OP Chapter Tactic. Ours isn't disgustingly OP, boo friggin hoo. The people who powergame will play RG and we won't, whatever. I would call pretty much all of the other CTs fairly balanced.

White Scars, you move faster and can hit hard with bikes. Can charge after pulling back. Counterable, the charging after pulling back is good but they have to make it there first.

 

Ultra's can pull back and still shoot, Imperial Guard can do this and nobody whines about that. Leadership buff? Might as well not even exist, it does literally nothing except on eight to ten man units, which most SM players don't take anyways. We have ATSKNF for a reason.

 

Salamander's CT is pretty cool, it will effect a few small things here and there that will add up. I was expecting a flamer buff of some kind. Still, not OP at all. 

 

IF ignoring cover on their CT means they'll be better at killing small units that rely on cover saves. Remember, you were going to focus their infantry carrying big guns and their dreadnoughts with heavy weapons anyways, now you have more of a reason to do so. It's not but not at all game breaking. 

 

BT re rolling charge is fine. Balanced.

 

Raven Guard getting -1 to hit is disgusting though. Their's really stands out to me. But hey, that's the nature of any game, especially one as complex and varied as WH40k. One thing is always to going to be better than the others. It will always happen. Now we just know that the people playing counts-as White Scars last edition will be playing Counts as RG this edition. Big whoop. 

 

If someone brings a fluffy Raven Guard army, meaning lots of scouts and jump troops dropping down, and they don't abuse the CT you won't have a bad game. It's the abusers we have to worry about and we all know who those people are. 

[Firepower]

 

Maybe Grimaldus will get an upgrade to his rules and get what Asmodai has ... re-roll failed hits AND +1 attack ... but then Asmodai is 25 more points than Grim.

Without some way to counter Battle Shock against our large squads (preferably a Stratagem rather than something we have to pay for), I will be annoyed.  I'm not mad about our CT, just unimpressed.  I am annoyed that we lost dedicated LRCs though.

 

Why is dedicated LRC such a big deal? 

 

a period we were the only one with LRC... and then we were the only ones with LRC in troop-slot until the BA take that.

 

in 6th Edition only Troop choices can hold marker and in 7th edition troops had a special rule - and lrc were troopchoices for Black Templars...

 

And now everyone can use our own LRC - we lost the last thing that made LRC special to BT.

 

 

To clarify, the LRC was never exclusive to us.  Other armies could take 1 at its inception. 

 

As for our melee abilities now versus the past, yes, we used to win by weight of dice.  That is not the case any more, but the way melee works now is not the same as 3rd or 4th edition.  But those halcyon days were gone the moment 5th came out and consolidation into combat was no longer a thing.  It's not some recent betrayal with the release of this CT.

 

The new CT is fluffy in the most minimalist of fashions, but every CT is rather minimal.  It will come down to Stratagems and special wargear to put the final touches on the tabletop identity.  Personally I far prefer that the former be good than the latter.  Having to pay for special toys for an army to act like it should, rather than simply buffing an already existing archetype (i.e. a Character that makes a unit strong in melee versus a Character that buffs a strong melee unit), is irritating.

[Brother Talarian]

1. Our CT is not bad, as some have already pointed out.

UM - get to fall back and shoot. Our CT will allow us to overwhelm them and charge them with higher success than most armies.

RG - Steel Rain! Drop behind their lines, charge forward with LRC, charge!

Sal - solid.

IF - we don't shoot things anyway. We charge into the melee. Who cares if they ignore cover of we're in their face.

IH - well....

WS - solid. Mostly for bikes. We'll surround them and they won't get the chance to flee.

 

I personally think stratagems will be playing a far bigger role than CT. E.g RG stratagem, it's HUGE!

 

By having a built in mechanic that lets us re-roll charges we save on or CP for much more valuable stratagems... hasn't it been mentioned that there will be 20odd new ones? Unique ones as well? Warlord traits and a relic?

 

Brothers... stay your blades.. for now. We may still be missin the main ingredient.

 

Here's hoping our focus is tomorrow so we get more insight on our stratagem.

[Marshal Arthur]

Question: Would gaining something anti psyker deny the witch thingy actually be fluffy for us? Like, in the fluff, have we ever stopped a psyker from casting a power in any way beyond jamming a chainsword upside their skull?

 

I always figured the fluffiest deny the witch power is an Emperor's Champion and his zeal.

[Marshal Arthur]

 

 

Maybe Grimaldus will get an upgrade to his rules and get what Asmodai has ... re-roll failed hits AND +1 attack ... but then Asmodai is 25 more points than Grim.

Without some way to counter Battle Shock against our large squads (preferably a Stratagem rather than something we have to pay for), I will be annoyed.  I'm not mad about our CT, just unimpressed.  I am annoyed that we lost dedicated LRCs though.

 

Why is dedicated LRC such a big deal? 

 

a period we were the only one with LRC... and then we were the only ones with LRC in troop-slot until the BA take that.

 

in 6th Edition only Troop choices can hold marker and in 7th edition troops had a special rule - and lrc were troopchoices for Black Templars...

 

And now everyone can use our own LRC - we lost the last thing that made LRC special to BT.

 

 

To clarify, the LRC was never exclusive to us.  Other armies could take 1 at its inception. 

 

As for our melee abilities now versus the past, yes, we used to win by weight of dice.  That is not the case any more, but the way melee works now is not the same as 3rd or 4th edition.  But those halcyon days were gone the moment 5th came out and consolidation into combat was no longer a thing.  It's not some recent betrayal with the release of this CT.

 

The new CT is fluffy in the most minimalist of fashions, but every CT is rather minimal.  It will come down to Stratagems and special wargear to put the final touches on the tabletop identity.  Personally I far prefer that the former be good than the latter.  Having to pay for special toys for an army to act like it should, rather than simply buffing an already existing archetype (i.e. a Character that makes a unit strong in melee versus a Character that buffs a strong melee unit), is irritating.

 

 

The more I think about it the more I realize the chapter tactics can't be too powerful or they become free one-sided buffs in what is supposed to be a balanced edition. While it's not what I was hoping for most of my hopes were a little too powerful for a permanent army wide buff and I can accept things as they are. Stratagems can fill the void and add power to our army while still forcing tactical decisions in game.

[Medjugorje]

I think its just because GW used to say that everything will be soooo cool and then we get a small bonus and nothing that represent our style...

 

Its not that bad for my raging modus i used in the last hours but if GW take our expectations in some different levels then the reality hurts badly. We have to wait on other Chapter Tactics (maybe there are more) and on the other stratagems, relics and for shure our units. Maybe they changed a little bit.

[Helias_Tancred]

It's a tad odd how disparate these tactics are in "power" compared to each other.  Ours are so weaker in comparison to the RG and UM for instance.

 

You bring up the most important point of this whole debate, why is there such a variance?

 

This does not boost my faith in what they will give us when our information leaks :(

[Panzer]

One leak and everyone rages about how we have been mistreated. I am ashamed of this. Under the codex, we will be better than if we were operating from the index, yet many of our numbers are throwing tantrums and declaring all kinds of crazy things. I can't see the new codex or any of its many, many rules. How can we declare anything with such anger, when we do not even have all the facts? I ask you to stop acting like Grimaldus, abandoned by Helbrecht on Armageddon, and start acting like Grimaldus, Hero of Helsreach.

 

I came here to have fun and talk about how awesome templars are. I'm taking a break from the templar section of the forum. 

I know right. Some of the Black Templar here sound awefully much like a bunch of CSM player with their whining.

 

Don't mind me, just go ahead and purge those heretics.

*strokes his beard with a tentacle*

 

Without some way to counter Battle Shock against our large squads (preferably a Stratagem rather than something we have to pay for), I will be annoyed.  I'm not mad about our CT, just unimpressed.  I am annoyed that we lost dedicated LRCs though.

Dunno but I yet have to see battleshock having any meaningful impact apart from that one time my Space Wolves opponent rolled a 6 for his last remaining Wulfen and re-rolled it with another 6. Battleshock is a surprisingly weak rule.

[Lysere]

 

 

It's a tad odd how disparate these tactics are in "power" compared to each other. Ours are so weaker in comparison to the RG and UM for instance.

You bring up the most important point of this whole debate, why is there such a variance?

 

This does not boost my faith in what they will give us when our information leaks :(

Keep in mind that while their tactic is good their relic, warlord trait, chapter master, and stratagem are all designed to get you closer to the enemy thus undermining the chapter tactic.

[Sete]

We should have a second part saying we ignore negative LD modifiers in close combat.

[Closet Skeleton]

Funny, I just looked at the BA wishlisting thread and rerolling charges comes up a lot there.

 

Black Templars had rerolling advances in 7th ed and running forwards in 3-5th ed. I don't see how another ability that makes us better at running forwards is unfluffy all of a sudden just because its sub par to Raven Guard cheese.

 

I'm more annoyed by how Raven Guard have a bunch of relics and characters that give the exact same ability BT get, but that will hopefully vanish if BT get something over-powered.

 

Maybe we could get an anti-psyker strategem, that would potentially be more useful than the 'deny on 1d6' that the Sisters of Battle get to replace the ability we used to share with them.

 

But all I really want is Maelstrom cards with the old vow names on them and I know that's unlikely to happen.

[Vaughn]

Well, as long as it helps us get into combat. The Chapter tactics are just one piece of the puzzle I guess.

 

If the strategem, warlord trait, or maybe relic provides some form of force multiplier for melee combat, it'd pull it together in terms of how well we do as a melee chapter.

 

If all else fails, Grimaldus and Helbrecht still provide some good combat modifications.

 

I'd guess cenobytes could also be useful for making our boys stay in the fight as well.

[Banjulhu]

I can see our strategem being called Abhor the Witch and it allowing Templar to spend CP to get the Sisters of Battle ability to roll a single d6 to attempt a psyker-less deny the witch.

[Sete]

After a good night sleep, our CT is still mediocre.

 

If we ignored battleshock while on CC then it would have been amazing. We get to combat and stay there.

 

Also, due to my dislike of the reivers, the CT it absolutely worthless, until we get a proper Primaris CC unit like veterans.

 

It's acceptable for our crusader squads, and if the rules for IC remain the same, we will be using them a lot.

 

I reckon the stratagem will be deny the witch shenanigans, and that just leaves the Relic and WT. Fingers crossed lads. It can't get worse than this.

[Firepower]

After a good night sleep, our CT is still mediocre.

 

Also, due to my dislike of the reivers, the CT it absolutely worthless, until we get a proper Primaris CC unit like veterans.

 

Wow, you went from "mediocre" to "worthless" in one post.  How exactly are Rievers the only ones that benefit from the CT?

 

We get it.  You're mad at GW.  You have been for years now.  You don't have to remind us every 2 hours.