Marshal_Roujakis Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Well, as long as it helps us get into combat. The Chapter tactics are just one piece of the puzzle I guess. If the strategem, warlord trait, or maybe relic provides some form of force multiplier for melee combat, it'd pull it together in terms of how well we do as a melee chapter. If all else fails, Grimaldus and Helbrecht still provide some good combat modifications. I'd guess cenobytes could also be useful for making our boys stay in the fight as well. i guess that's the thing though, I don't want Grimaldus and Helbrecht always shoehorned into my lists just so the army can actually feel like a Black Templar force... the Chapter Tactic falls flat flavor-wise since we've never actually gotten a charge distance boost aside for Helbrecht's Crusade of Wrath rule in 7th ed. and guess what... it was never used for the charge distance boost, but was more or less used due to the Hatred Special rule... In regards to 8th ed. Chapter Tactics being better than 7th ed. Chapter Tactics, I would actually disagree, losing Neophyte from Overwatch, or 1 Vanguard Veteran from enemy shooting means they gain that bonus attack that becomes such as huge boon... it actually forces our enemy to consider charging at all or if they actually want to shoot in Overwatch... if they don't shoot, then we just gain the bonus attack for charging, and we have that 1 guy that was supposed ot be dead for the extra attacks... I'm not asking for much, and tbh, it's really fluffy (since 4th ed. Codex lads) to have that same old rule... I have no idea why they decide not to put that in... I don't mind the reroll to charge, it can be quite useful during the right moments, but Drop Pods are overpriced now for what they are, which limits Deep Striking w/ Crusaders or Characters, and if you're using a Rhino, then it becomes situational again at best... but we really need more oomph! for that punch in melee... @Sete: we don't really need the the Ignore to Battleshock as for now, we can use an Elite Slot and take 18 pts. of Cenobyte Servitors to do that... their AoE is massive, and they can be easily protected or ignored... I'm not really that upset about what happened to BT... just more disappointed than before... I hope the Command Traits, Warlord Traits and the Relics are better or at least viable to us, otherwise, I would just keep playing with the Index... the only thing I need to consider is reroll charges anyway... I'm still going to Crusade, but unless we get a specialized force multiplier that doesn't necessitate forcing us to take a character/unit, then I'm sticking w/ the index... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 After a good night sleep, our CT is still mediocre. Also, due to my dislike of the reivers, the CT it absolutely worthless, until we get a proper Primaris CC unit like veterans. Wow, you went from "mediocre" to "worthless" in one post. How exactly are Rievers the only ones that benefit from the CT? We get it. You're mad at GW. You have been for years now. You don't have to remind us every 2 hours. No you didn't get it. It's a mediocre CT overall. But it's usefull if you run crusader squads and CC terminators. It's worthless for me, because I was planning to run a pure Primaris Crusade and I dislike the reivers, the only dedicated CC unit so far in a Primaris army. So it's actually 2 different things! I'm not mad at anyone, just disappointed overall (maybe a bit mad). And yes I will keep reminding you every 2 hours not to be happy with mediocrity. ;) @ Roujakis, yeah forgot the cenobytes. I never ran IC on my lists, so I tend not to count with their rules. But well I'm going to leave this part of the forum. People have become increasingly hostile against me and my "negativity". Happy Crusading lads. Never settle for mediocre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Unless you're planning on running the various named characters, you aren't required to use the Black Templars CT if you want to run Primaris Black Templars. Use another CT. They made that recommendation when looking for the ideal CT for your successor chapter. I see no reason why it couldn't be applied to First Founding chapters either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughn Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Unless you're planning on running the various named characters, you aren't required to use the Black Templars CT if you want to run Primaris Black Templars. Use another CT. They made that recommendation when looking for the ideal CT for your successor chapter. I see no reason why it couldn't be applied to First Founding chapters either. to be fair, the iron hands chapter tactics suit "uphold the Honor of the emperor" pretty well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 After a good night sleep, our CT is still mediocre. Also, due to my dislike of the reivers, the CT it absolutely worthless, until we get a proper Primaris CC unit like veterans. Wow, you went from "mediocre" to "worthless" in one post. How exactly are Rievers the only ones that benefit from the CT? We get it. You're mad at GW. You have been for years now. You don't have to remind us every 2 hours. No you didn't get it. It's a mediocre CT overall. But it's usefull if you run crusader squads and CC terminators. It's worthless for me, because I was planning to run a pure Primaris Crusade and I dislike the reivers, the only dedicated CC unit so far in a Primaris army. So it's actually 2 different things! I'm not mad at anyone, just disappointed overall (maybe a bit mad). And yes I will keep reminding you every 2 hours not to be happy with mediocrity. ;) @ Roujakis, yeah forgot the cenobytes. I never ran IC on my lists, so I tend not to count with their rules. But well I'm going to leave this part of the forum. People have become increasingly hostile against me and my "negativity". Happy Crusading lads. Never settle for mediocre. Have a look at the full book when it is released, then you can decide if Templars and Primaris unit choices are good or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciler Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I still stick with underwhelming compared to some others. Re-rolling charges is nice, make no mistake, but I would have preferred it combined with an abhor the witch type bonus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wolfhart Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I'm waiting for the book to arrive before i fully commit to any position, but so far i'm carefully disappointed. It's not the end of the world or anything, but the other CTs seem so much more flavorful (and powerful). Sete has a point, it could have been so much more. And i also don't like fielding the High Marshal for every combat patrol if i want to get proper melee oomph from my crusader squads. I'm really curious towards our stratagems thoug, there's still room for saving grace there :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I have to say brothers, I am disappointed. Not in our rules, but in you lot. An edition or two ago were we not all begging for something better than bonuses in challeges? I recall wishing for re-rolling charges being said many times in the past. Last edition people were upset because RZ "made us seem like frothing beserkers" Now you want to be beserekers? I don't get it. Re-rolling charges is a universally useful tactic. Combine that with the fact that we have 3 of the best special characters in the book and a troop choice that no means there is literally no reason to take Tac squads(which many consider unfluffy) and I think we are in a good spot. Did any of you seriously think they were going to give us something so powerful as +1 attack for free army wide? Since when as rules defined what it is to be a Templar? We got a useful fluffy CT that allows us to not waste CP on re-rolling charges. I don't think some of you realize how powerful CP are going to be. They are going to be game changing tools like being able to interrupt a charge is huge, would have been a big difference in my game last night(we weren't using CP though because it was his 1st game of 8th) So instead of complaining about how much better everyone elses are(which they aren't IMO, even RG) lets talk about what kind of ways we will take advantage of this. "Let our feet, steel clad, pressed into the soils of this alien land, remark on our passing. What need have we of plaudit and praise? No matter the laurel of victory, no matter the glories others may seek. We are the Black Templars. Victory is it's own reward."- High Marshal Helbrecht Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Meh, regardless of how we interpret the Chapter Tactics, I won't be getting much games with it anyway... (moving further from my FLGS... :( ) I'm moving more towards working on my Armies on Parade and less on games, so I'll still be hanging around here usually posting my stuff... I'll be interested in what you guys can come up with with the mediocre Chapter Tactic (I'm not gonna lie to you either, it's mediocre imho...) but I would still like it to be better than what it is... As I've mentioned... I don't want Templars to be Berzerkers or Blood Angels, but at least be given the oomph that they so needed in CC... Power Weapons are severely meh this edition, that it makes me really annoyed I spent so much time painting Power Weapons, I'm not a fan of ripping off arms to glued model either... I was actually pleased with the previous editions Chapter Tactic... I'm just disappointed with how they handled ours in the Codex, and it does really make me wonder if they even playtested ours against all the other Chapters... I do have a suggestion... once the Codex is out (I probably won't be able to get a game in due to real-life circumstances...) please play with the other Chapters to test out how well we play against them... use all kinds of loadouts for lists as well, with and without Special Characters, centralized and non-centric towards mechanized assaults and all kinds of possible combinations with our army... if Templars still have the same feel or capabilities as 4th-6th-7th even without our Special Characters (admittedly I've only ran them once or twice except the EC which is there always) then I would accept the disappointment from the mods for being disappointed about our treatment... but if my outlook, and the outlook of so many others here are correct in our assumption that we did get the short end of the stick in regards to C:SM treatment... then I guess we were right all along, we'll still trudge through the muck and fight until every corner of the galaxy rightfully belongs to the Emperor, but don't tell us that we should be happy about being fed the scraps off the table when everyone else gets fresh food... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjulhu Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 So what are the odds that the warlord trait is called Accept any Challenge and does something like mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6 vs characters and monsters? So instead of complaining about how much better everyone elses are(which they aren't IMO, even RG) lets talk about what kind of ways we will take advantage of this. There is no real way to take advantage of it. The tactic in no way modifies anything about the core mechanics or how a unit interacts with them, it just sligtly changes the odds of sucess of something that would or would not happen anyway. Short range charges will happen more regularly but frankly with the 2d6 charge system for the number of times short charges are failed the spending of a CP every now and then to re-roll is enough. Long range charges dont get a substantial enough impact to care about. The big one, the 9" charge, still remains worse than a coin flip, and that is not something to build a battle plan around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughn Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I finally figured out why our Chapter tactics annoy me. It because the fall of cadia detachment for BT allows for rerolls of charge distances and grants furious charge if it's over 10". I'm not saying out chapter tactics are bad, just that we've lost a lot comparatively speaking. But then again I guess all chapters have lost something Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I finally figured out why our Chapter tactics annoy me. It because the fall of cadia detachment for BT allows for rerolls of charge distances and grants furious charge if it's over 10". I'm not saying out chapter tactics are bad, just that we've lost a lot comparatively speaking. But then again I guess all chapters have lost something Everyone lost a lot of stuff from 7th so that's a pointless comparison and complaint. Focus on what we have and what it lets us do. And to mirror others again, if our tactic was simply an extra attack on the charge for all of our units we would probably be on of the strongest chapter tactics especially when combined with our crusader squads. I mean you can make a squad of vanguard with double chainswords already which throw out 31 attacks every single phase. Even with only minor rerolls that is a lot of dice and people want more than that. That's not what makes a Templar though, that's more in line with a berzerker or an ork. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think this thread has run its course and it's time to move on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336848-black-templars-ct-leaked/page/6/#findComment-4824974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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