Chapter tactics v legion traits

[adreal]

So as many of you may have seen, loyalist chapter tactics have been leaked, one thing I have noticed is alot of players are saying they are crap.....

 

I'm really surprised by this, as they all seem pretty awesome, but the reason for this post is, I want to ask chaos players, when we get our legion traits, can we please hold off on the salt levels and the whining until we have used them in a game??

 

8th has been a fun edition so far, and I'm looking forward to seeing how my alpha legion will play after our codex drops

[BrassClaw]

Yeah, I don't know why people are down on them. Some are great, the only one I'm not really feeling in the Salamanders one. As for possible Traitors traits, being a World Eater player the most obvious one is to give infantry Blood for the Blood God but that seems extreme and removes a specialness that Berzerkers have right now. Maybe something that extents charge distance? or something like Fearless?

 

I'm not sure what would be good for my fellow traitors

[Zodd1888]

I don't think we'll see any duplicate traits between legions, so charhe extensions and things like -1 at 12" and above are going to be out of the question. It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens.

 

My only hope is that immunity to perils or +1 to psychic tests isn't TSons rules. One seems too obvious, the other is repeated in character rules.

 

It'll have to be applicable to both dreads and infantry (no bikes for TSons) so it makes me curious what we'll see. I'll laugh if it's +1 to all rending attacks.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Zodd1888

[Drudge Dreadnought]

That Salamanders re-roll is going to be amazing in minimum size unit special and heavy weapon spam. Imagine what it will do to razorback spam!

 

 

My main worry for Legion rules is that they will just not be enough to really represent the Legions that well. Loyalist chapters are mostly similar, due to the Codex, so it makes sense that they get a buff and some new units that coincide with their areas of strength. Legions, on the other hand, should have much bigger upsides but also much bigger drawbacks. A +1 or reroll in one area does not properly represent the differences between the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers.

 

Part of what made Legion rules so great in 3rd ed was that they came with a lot of restrictions. I want to see big bonuses, but with big downsides and restrictions. Right now, Chaos and Loyalists are primarily different because they have a variety of special units that are different. But CSM vs Tacs or Raptors vs Assault marines are not that different. I'd like to see them be more different due to special rules. In the past this has often been accomplished by Chaos marines lacking things like ATSKNF and combat squads but having more weapon options, or Cult Marines who are much stronger but also more expensive.

 

The other issue is that each chaos legions have a lot of stuff going on. For example, to really distinguish Word Bearers from the default, they need rules/specials for Daemon Summoning, cultists, possessed, daemon engines, and probably their own psychic power list. Past editions have tried the approach of defining different legions merely based off what units they chose to field, but that is boring. If Word Bearers got special stuff in all those areas, that would be seen as getting a lot more stuff than Loyalists, and people would be upset. It could also overpower Word Bearers (probably not in this case, because possessed and daemon engines are both lackluster anyway.)

 

So I think we may get solid rules, but I'm concerned that they just won't be interesting enough to really make legions feel different from each other, or even much from other types of marines.

 

Here's the sorts of mechanics that I think would make Word Bearers really feel like a totally different play style:

 

- Cultists gain the ability to summon daemons. They only get to roll a single D6 for the Roll, and cannot act further on a turn they summon. However, they can sacrifice models to add +1 to the roll. The model price of the sacrificed models are added/refunded to your reserve points.

 

- Add a Thrall/Slave unit. They can be added to cultist squads and Word Bearer characters. They would be very weak, and have a rule that they cannot be removed by wounds until the rest of the unit has (they can't work as ablative wounds.) They cost 2 or 3 points a model, and exist only to be used as ritual fodder in the above rule.

 

- Word Bearer characters gain +2 to summoning rolls.

 

- A small buff to Chaos Marine Daemon units (possessed, mainly.) Perhaps possessed as Troops as well.

 

- A daemon wargear item or two that is added to Champion and/or special weapon list. Or perhaps a selection of new Icons.

 

- Daemonic possession upgrade you can buy on vehicles. On existing daemon engines, gives them a buff. On vehicles that aren't already daemon engines, gives them some new properties, similar to what existed in the past.

 

- A new unit. Perhaps a daemon engine, special Chosen squad, or something along those lines. Perhaps more options for Cultists as well.

 

- A special character or two.

 

- Their own psychic discipline.

 

- Restrictions on unit selection that includes no cult troops, and no God marked Chaos Marines (but daemons are fine.)

 

 

These sorts of rules would make Word Bearers very distinct and interesting to play. But I doubt we'll see anything this much.

[1000 Sons]

If the loyalists are an example for traitors, they will be pretty simple. Nothing very defining, or special.

[Paradigm]

I just want Night Lords to have good leadership debuffs. I just realized... is Night Fighting even a thing now?

[Berzerker88]

Assuming we don't get copy pasted Chapter Tactics, I imagine they'll simply convert the Legion Traits from 7th edition. I doubt they'll put as much creativity as they did for loyalists.

 

I can see the free 2d6 movement and charge rerolls coming back for World Eaters, as well as an extended charge range stratagem. Thousand Sons and Death Guard will get their own armies, with a full selection of relics, warlord traits and stratagems.

[Sception]

There will be no new units without new models, and with the csm book getting squeezed out between the primaris and death guard release waves there will almost certainly not be any new models.

 

Wish listing and home brew is neither here nor there, but if you're actually expecting the legion rules to be more involved than the chapter tactics in the marine book, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Edited July 19, 2017 by malisteen

[Sonoftherubric21]

Itll probably be fine; they most certainly haven't short changed chaos the past year or so.  (IMO of course; I think its been a good year or so) 

I disagree with the main community about "oh chapter tactics SUCK!" no, no they do not. and I cant understand how people are saying that. Boggles the mind.  I do think they are perhaps not as "swingy" as they were previous editions and perhaps needed to be toned a little in regards to keeping 8th relatively balanced. and I have no issue personally with this, Bare in mind my loyalist army is in fact White Scars, and I think the scars tactic is quite nice, though It does require me to get some jump packers now ;-) 

Though Raven guard and ultras both have very good ones, and I think the Salamanders tactic might just be a shining star (that number of re-rolls....that could make eldar blush lol) 

 

I cant see them copy-pasting rules between chapter tactics and legions.  Though I wouldn't be shocked to see the rules from 7th ported over directly with some alterations taking edition change into account.  

 

I am eager to see all 9, though I must pause to wonder; I presume Death guard and Thousand Sons will be left out of the "undivided" books as far as legion tactics are concerned since they are receiving their own forthcoming codexs. I also presume that the formatting will be identical to loyalists; one relic, one strategem, and the tactics for a given legion seeing as thats how the vanilla dex is formatted. 

I would expect almost all future codexs (including NON marine lists as GW has already stated, forge worlds, craftworlds and the like) will follow the same formula. 
 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Sonoftherubric21

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Well i can understand BT feeling desabused with their CT. But damn, IF, UM, RG, WS seems pretty good to me. 

 

one relic, one strategem, and the tactics for a given legion seeing as thats how the vanilla dex is formatted.

 

 

I do hope their will be more than one relic per chapter/legion. And their is only one stratagem per chapter/legion but more stratagem specific of the army. 

 

I do hope tho we will not have the same CT as loyalist (IW and IF, RG and NL, WS and EC etc...). Coz we are not just SM with pikes.

[Iron_Within]

I like the Chapter Tactics rules, and they've already emphasised that these go with their strategems etc. to give a total picture, Chapter tactics aren't the be all and end all. So I'm patient with these. 

 

I can see an element of copy-pasting and re-jigging of Chapter Tactics for Legions Traits. What don't think there will be is any unit role manipulation, e.g. Night Lords won't get Raptors as troops, Obliterators won't become troops for Iron Warriors (I hope, I never liked that), there are FOC for that as far as I'm concerned.

[Lagrath]

Currently the CSM index is better than the old codex, worse than the traitor legions supplement. On one hand I sorry SM are already better and now they get amazing stuff. On the other hand I hope we get amazing stuff too.

 

GW has said that they want to stick close to the TL supplement. Reece at FLG hinted the codexes will make infantry better. We will get some new units to make up for some legions getting screwed by having core units removed. The SM stuff indicates tons of custom stratagems with each codex. I can't wait to see the DG codex.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Obliterators won't become troops for Iron Warriors (I hope, I never liked that)

 

 

IW deserved Havocs as troops, not Obliterators/Mutilators.

 

Imo giving one entry as troops chooce per chapter/legion is better than those vanguard, speartip etc.. detachment. But GW prefere the no-limit rules with their cow's wilk and here goes the fluff and the balance.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Honestly one special relic, strategem and warlord trait per legion plus a legion tactic seems pretty good to me. Obviously chaos isn't going to get more love than the marine chapters, probably just equal treatment which is fine. After 3 editions of literally 0 legion tactics for almost all the legions I'll be quite happy to have something at least. My only hope is that the WB tactics doesn't just make them better at summoning daemons, rather have a rule that actually makes my word bearer marines better.

[the jeske]

Yeah, I don't know why people are down on them. Some are great, the only one I'm not really feeling in the Salamanders one. As for possible Traitors traits, being a World Eater player the most obvious one is to give infantry Blood for the Blood God but that seems extreme and removes a specialness that Berzerkers have right now. Maybe something that extents charge distance? or something like Fearless?

 

I'm not sure what would be good for my fellow traitors

Melta/multi melta are a salamander thing. The thing is, in 8th single shot weapons generaly suck [not that this is much different from prior editions], being able to re-roll hit and wound on that melta/MM makes it more viable to run it. As GW told us they want people to run more characterful armies, so if all salamader armies were full of [picking stuff they don't use] RAS and land speeders it would not be a good thing in GW eyes[even if the hypothetical army worked good on the table]. there for they give a buff to a theme option, now does this make grav canons not the better option? no, but it makes MM less sucky. Expect the same thing happen to non cult legions. Theme options over power formations. But of course if the theme is strong pre legion "tactic" then the formation will be good.

 

 

My only hope is that the WB tactics doesn't just make them better at summoning daemons, rather have a rule that actually makes my word bearer marines better.

 

you know very well it will.

Edited July 19, 2017 by the jeske

[Paradigm]

I really hope they don't make different units troops. It never really made any sense, for any of them.

[Brother Aiwass]

Well i can understand BT feeling desabused with their CT. But damn, IF, UM, RG, WS seems pretty good to me. 

 

one relic, one strategem, and the tactics for a given legion seeing as thats how the vanilla dex is formatted.

 

 

I do hope their will be more than one relic per chapter/legion. And their is only one stratagem per chapter/legion but more stratagem specific of the army. 

 

I do hope tho we will not have the same CT as loyalist (IW and IF, RG and NL, WS and EC etc...). Coz we are not just SM with pikes.

So we have now 8 or 9 legions in one book (8 if they left out TS to give them a stand alone codex). The SM marine one have 7 and half of them are pretty meh.

 

So, who will be the favored ones? World Eaters for sure. But the others? I guess EC & TS (if they are in the book) because they're the cult legions. That leaves one sweet spot.

 

Salamanders CT don't work on razorbacks since CT only applies to infantry, bikes & dreads btw. And the IF one... Since when they're siege specialists? That's IW work, them is to build fortresses for the IW to take down.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm going to guess that if Deathguard is it's own codex, that each of the other mono-god traitor legions will also end up it's own codex over time. So it wouldn't surprise me if the CSM Codex does not include any of those four. It is probably that it will be the other 5 traitor legions, plus a few established warbands like Red Corsairs. Perhaps they will do a Warband for each God.

 

But it's also possible that they'll throw in Legion rules for everyone, and then let them be overridden by their respective codices as they are released. I hope this is the case as we're not likely to see World Eaters or EC until next year otherwise.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

My only hope is that the WB tactics doesn't just make them better at summoning daemons, rather have a rule that actually makes my word bearer marines better.

 

you know very well it will.

A man can dream. Plus chapter tactics gave turned out to be pretty interesting so far, there's certainly a chance GW will try something different for WB.

[Commissar K.]

Well I think WB should have that extra dice available to summon. I dont think anything else would specifically suit them too much either. Offcourse there is the option to consider Possessed to be part of their Troop choices but that's aside of what Chapter Tactics are about.

I mean if we're talking Word Bearer Legion tactics and they arn't focused on summonning what do you think it should be? Other than making Cultitists or others (maby) immume to Morale (which is allready partially possible) I don't think there is a ton of space left for Word Bearers.

We'll see though, no reason to get any of my hopes up just yet!

[Brother Aiwass]

The possibility of having a psyker defiler warlord was really amusing tbh. How about a buff to DAEMON units instead? This could be fun too, for making possessed better. But I don't think its gonna happen, because of the large quantity of units with that keyword.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I'd love to see a moral focused chapter tactic for WB. Ultras get +1LD so something similar is certainly possible for them. I'd rather not just wish list though, we'll see what all the legions get within the next month or so.

[Backslide]

WB should be the crazy fanatical nutbags they are in the books... righteously devoted to the cause... ok a plus to summons is ok but if thats it I will be annoyed...

 

as for cultists I do want tide of traitors back :)

[hopkins]

There will be no new units without new models, and with the csm book getting squeezed out between the primaris and death guard release waves there will almost certainly not be any new models.

 

Wish listing and home brew is neither here nor there, but if you're actually expecting the legion rules to be more involved than the chapter tactics in the marine book, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

just you wait for those black legion deep strike buffs ;)

[DreamIsCollapsing]

That's IW work, them is to build fortresses for the IW to take down.

 

Bost IF and IW build and destroy forteresse. You've got a pretty good exemple of this one a HH novel about a IW loyalist forteress against chaotic IW (the novels with one Ultramarines hanging around).

And thing about the Iron Cage. IF vs IW is all about who could build a bastion the other coudnt destroy are they are both master of building and siege.

 

As for CT, GW said it was not about a specific weapons anymore. And indead, Salamanders, for e.g., don't get particular bonus on flamethrower.

 

So expect general Legion trait applying to all units (except vehicules), not just one units or weapon.

 

For example I don't think EC will have Sonic weapon bonuses. But expect Stratagem and relics to be more focused on Legion specific units or weapon (like the one to get charge after advance on White Scars bikes)

 

For World bearer I'm expecting : 

- General Legion Trait, like +1 to moral and something like +1 to Advance and charge roll.

- Stratagel around Invocations and daemon : Like use 1 Command point to get +4 to invocation rolls (use this before make the roll ofc), or spend 1 CP before the battle begins to make a Dark Channeling on the armor, flesh and skin of a units who get the Daemon Keyword (brutal).

- Relics with daemon weapon, a Dark crozium arcanum who buff all Daemon units at 6" maybee ?

Edited July 19, 2017 by DreamIsCollapsing