Chapter tactics v legion traits

[Sception]

just you wait for those black legion deep strike buffs

 

Actually, and maybe this explains my general feeling of contentment with the current state of things such that I'm not really worried about what the legion rules may or may not look like, I kind of already got all the deep strike buffs I wanted with the change to how it works in 8th edition to begin with.  First turn (or 2 or 3 if you prefer, at your choice), no rolling, no scatter, no mishaps, landing in combi-weapon range, plus access to warp time and icons of wrath?  I can hardly even imagine an improvement to the default rules that wouldn't cross a line into totally unfair.

 

I honestly don't need black legion to get anything of note out of the legion rules to feel like my army is reasonably represented by the current rules, and as such anything we get, no matter how small, will be a nice cookie.  If I had to wish list, then I'd wish for the black legion trait to be the effect of the current slaaneshi icon, and for the slaaneshi icon to do something else instead.  Maybe the slaanesh icon could cause some sort of mind-numbing aura, such that enemy units that charge units with the icon of slaanesh are forced to attack in the normal order, rather than getting to go first?

 

I don't know.

 

I'm more concerned with main dex rules & points costs than with subfaction rules.  Without the need to streamline for the index, will the obliterators get better/more complicated rules?  Will they fix the points cost problems with the daemon prince options, such that giving one a weapon apart from their own empty paws isn't just paying 30 extra points to make them worse?  Are they expanding our psychic power options, and if so what will those look like?  What about the exalted champion, what will those look like rules & points wise?  Will they get interesting options like army banners or terminator armor, or is it just an entry for the tattersoul model and nothing else?

 

What will our artefacts & daemon weapons look like?  I'd like to run lords, but being stuck with regular power weapons in the index really sucks the fun out of them - one of the things I hated most about 6th/7th edition chaos is that my characters were forced to run and hide from their loyalist counterparts mostly due to the difference in equipment quality, and that's one problem the index rules haven't fixed yet, what with loyalists carrying master crafted and relic weapons, while our heroes stuck with single damage power weapons, or power fists that negate our faction rule.  I know the death guard like to complain about how overpriced the plaguereaper is, and sure, I agree, it is overpriced, but I'd still prefer to take a powerful-but-overpriced weapon on my lord and have loyalist characters run from him rather than be stuck with an efficient-but-weak power sword and have to run from them.

 

Are we going to get more vehicle options back?  will dirge casters be a thing again, and if so what will they do?  Because rhinos can already nullify overwatch well enough just by charging and soaking it on their own.  Another leadership debuff to stack with spawn, raptors, nurgle icon, etc would be cool.

 

Will the codex take more liberties with existing rules than the index did?  The index re-imagined a lot of units and options making them dramatically cooler, but a few things seemed to get translated over without any care to whether their rules well reflected their fluff or were interesting or exciting on the tabletop.  Like Abaddon's sword Drach'nyen, which by all rights should be a single, higher strength attack dealing mortal wounds, rather than many, lower strength attacks dealing regular wounds.  Or like chosen, who aren't exactly terrible as they are, what with the improvements to the quality of their existing weapons and points changes making them cheaper and their power weapon options much cheaper, but still, 'basic marines with plus one attack and more special weapon options' isn't exactly the most super exciting unit.  Maybe some sort of bodyguard rule to encourage fielding them as larger retinues instead of MSU special weapon squads?  Maybe give them back their old infiltrating trick?  Maybe bump them up to two wounds - making them effectively a unit of mini-heroes, like a chaos counterpart to grey knight paladins?  Or the venerable Reaper Autocannon - the current rules for it aren't terrible, in that it's at least cheap, but it kind of lacks the impact I would want to see out of such a classic piece of faction-defining gear (ignoring for a moment that loyalists have access to it now via the stupid heresy units that they get and we don't what the heck).  I'd much rather see more expensive but more intimidating rules out of it, but maybe that's just me...

 

 

I don't expect to see most of this, but it is the sort of thing I'm looking for, much more than legion rules.

 

Then again, I play Black Legion, the legion least dependent on bespoke subfaction rules to convey our character on the tabletop.

Edited July 19, 2017 by malisteen

[Lord Asvaldir]

Much as I'm looking forward to some hopefully interesting WB rules, I completely agree with you Malisteen. As of now the index is ok, but pretty bland with only basic weapon options for a lot of units and lacking in unique rules, especially for units you mentioned like chosen. I'd really love to see the codex fix all of that and give the army more character. The marine codex will be a good indicator of just how much GW will be expanding armies from the index to the codexes, though of course marines gave several new primaris units to look forward to while we don't. Still km cautiously optimistic.

[Minsc]

So as many of you may have seen, loyalist chapter tactics have been leaked, one thing I have noticed is alot of players are saying they are crap.....

 

 

Really?

The impression I get is that players are saying that they're all more or less good, but that some of them (or most of them, depending on who you ask)...are quite boring/unimaginative, which is not the same thing.

 

I play Salamanders myself and I'll be the first to admit that our CT is good, but it doesn't feel very "chapter tacticy", and quite boring. So the Salamander tactic is to bring better wargear than all the other chapters? Not to mention that it has nothing to do with flamers. (Altough it synergises very well with meltas, or any other single-shop weapon for that matter.)

[Azekai]

I actually really like the Ultramarine, White Scar, and Salamander abilities. I think the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard options are fitting if somewhat irritating to play against. I think the Iron Hand chapter tactic is probably the worst offender, in that it is both dishwater dull and useless. A 6++ isn't great on Renegade Militia with their piles of bodies; it is going to be even worse with a much smaller army of marines. 

[Closet Skeleton]

I just want Night Lords to have good leadership debuffs. I just realized... is Night Fighting even a thing now?

 

Night fighting exists in several different forms as part of scenario rules in the rulebook, but its not a general special rule so can't be interacted with.

 

I really hope they don't make different units troops. It never really made any sense, for any of them.

 

It made sense for Cult units, which are a legion thing now rather than a mark thing (and tzeentch lords from renegade warbands getting rubrics as troops never made any sense either).

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Not to mention that it has nothing to do with flamers.

 

 

CT are means to be generic, usable by all units with all weapon. 

 

Stratagem are what you want to use your best weapon (bike for WS, assault squad for RG or flamers for Salamanders). 

[civsmitty]

Hmm, so my wild hope that my Alphas can set up anywhere outside 9" from the enemy could come to fruition.

 

More likely is that our Trait will be we won't give up StW until we're all dead, and the above will be a strategem.

[Paradigm]

It did for cult units, true. But to be fair, the cult units shouldn't be in the csm codex anyway at this point. It really never did true cult legion-aligned warbands justice. Which they've thankfully been rectifying with the new books.

 

My hope is they leave the cult legions completely out of the new codex csm. Maybe the cult infantry can remain as elites, but I'd be happy enough to see it go.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Fortnight

[Hathor42]

I wonder if they will get new special chars if typhus and ahriman are going to their own codexs.

[Slave to Darkness]

Characters would be great for the non aligned legions. Gimme Marduk and Honsou dammit!!!

[Zodd1888]

I'm surprised Honsou hasn't made an appearance. IW are such a popular legion, and with Honsou being a half-breed between IF and IW it'd be a great thing to play with regarding fluff.

[Plaguecaster]

Funny thing is that the last time they were mentioned both Marduk and Honsou were still hiding out on Calth undetected by the Ultramarines so if they teamed up they launch a very awesome surprise attack on the upstart Ultramarines which could end up being a cool battle that could see Calth finally destroyed or in the hands of chaos until Guilliman and his plot armour shows up that is ;) Edited July 20, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[DraneceusRex]

So I've hoping I've missed this and we have some more details on how SMs qualify for chapter tactics. All I've see is it being limited to battleforged armies. Does that mean the entire army needs to have the <chapter> keyword, individual detachments, or as long as your army is battleforged, it'll work for each individual unit with the appropriate <chapter> keyword? I ask because I imagine the same will be applicable for the legion traits...

[Lord Abaia]

So I've hoping I've missed this and we have some more details on how SMs qualify for chapter tactics. All I've see is it being limited to battleforged armies. Does that mean the entire army needs to have the <chapter> keyword, individual detachments, or as long as your army is battleforged, it'll work for each individual unit with the appropriate <chapter> keyword? I ask because I imagine the same will be applicable for the legion traits...

They haven't written out the entire rule completely yet, but they have said that you have to have one full detachment where everything has the <chapter> keyword. That seems much less restrictive than I had expected.

[DraneceusRex]

 

So I've hoping I've missed this and we have some more details on how SMs qualify for chapter tactics. All I've see is it being limited to battleforged armies. Does that mean the entire army needs to have the <chapter> keyword, individual detachments, or as long as your army is battleforged, it'll work for each individual unit with the appropriate <chapter> keyword? I ask because I imagine the same will be applicable for the legion traits...

They haven't written out the entire rule completely yet, but they have said that you have to have one full detachment where everything has the <chapter> keyword. That seems much less restrictive than I had expected.

 

What I am hoping for...

[Closet Skeleton]

Maybe the cult infantry can remain as elites, but I'd be happy enough to see it go.

 

A Night Lord player might not care if cult units became unique to their legions but us Black Legion guys would be screwed over if that were to happen.

[Paradigm]

Idk, I feel like it wouldn't be that big a deal. I used my fair share of zerkers and pm during their pime. In the current iteration of the game you don't need them all in the same book, just appropriate special rules. And, in the current iteration of the fluff your "Hounds of Abbadon" can easily be taken from a codex "World Eaters" and still make sense. This would open up far more for both CSM players and Khorne players. All it would require is appropriate keywords, and a special rule in the Black Legion' tactics.

 

Nothing in this ruleset is faction-locked. You can still have single CSM squads in an army with Daemons or R&H and it won't effect anything by default. Multiple CSM codexes don't need to change this.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I'm hoping that within the new book they give legion rules for the legions that aren't tied to a chaos god, a red corsair version, and black legion. Maybe some special rule for marks if every unit in the detachment has the same one so that alot of the older cult lists have a home if their codex doesn't support them (the nurgle list is awful restrictive for example).

[Trevak Dal]

There will be no new units without new models, and with the csm book getting squeezed out between the primaris and death guard release waves there will almost certainly not be any new models.

 

Wish listing and home brew is neither here nor there, but if you're actually expecting the legion rules to be more involved than the chapter tactics in the marine book, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Yeah we are chaos and if the Favorite sons didn't get spinners and rims, we're pretty :cussed.

 

Those Imperial Fists though, from Bolter drill to...well they ignore cover if you are in a building...yay? We don't have any buildings...

 

But to me it seems really simple to translate the traitor legions stuff to 8th. But that would be better than what the favorite sons got...so that's up there with Reese Witherspoon returning my calls.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[adreal]

 

There will be no new units without new models, and with the csm book getting squeezed out between the primaris and death guard release waves there will almost certainly not be any new models.

 

Wish listing and home brew is neither here nor there, but if you're actually expecting the legion rules to be more involved than the chapter tactics in the marine book, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Yeah we are chaos and if the Favorite sons didn't get spinners and rims, we're pretty :cuss.

 

Those Imperial Fists though, from Bolter drill to...well they ignore cover if you are in a building...yay? We don't have any buildings...

 

But to me it seems really simple to translate the traitor legions stuff to 8th. But that would be better than what the favorite sons got...so that's up there with Reese Witherspoon returning my calls.

Pretty sure fists strait up ignore cover

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah Fists just straight up ignore cover and reroll to wound rolls against buildings. Not the best chapter tactic but solid.

 

@Black Star: the none God aligned units like WB, NL, IW, BL and AL are almost definitely going to get rules in the new codex considering they just had rules in 7th. Not sure about Red Corsairs though since they are not an original traitor legion.

[Panzer]

Yeah Fists just straight up ignore cover and reroll to wound rolls against buildings. Not the best chapter tactic but solid.

 

Ignore Cover on your whole army is actually crazy powerful on the right board.

On a board with lots of ruins and forests your infantry will pretty much always have an improved armor save while your enemy doesn't. Even better in real Cities of Death games.

On top of that they even have a warlord trait that lets units within 6" of the warlord ignore AP-1 while being in cover even.

[balordazul]

Well if it goes by what we have seen with SM it will be a matter of subjective opinion on what the dev team felt was good.  Unfortunately as we have seen with the SM Chapter Traits they range from great to meh.  

 

I'm hoping for a good amount of changes in the CSM codex to bring life to a number of the units that are bland or poorly designed.  As legions are more distinct that codex marines we could see some more interesting bonuses along with themed restrictions.  But time will tell....

 

/gazes longingly like at my 3.5 codex framed on the wall  

[Daenerys Targaryen]

To save myself inevitable disappointment,  I'm setting my expectations as low as they've ever been...

GW has spent over 10 years effectively flipping us the bird,  and to boot,  our model line is old as dirt AND full of massive holes in our bare handful of options we currently have.  (*cough*terminatorkit*cough*)

 

As we're 99.99999% sure we're not going to see a single model kit with our codex,  I'm not expecting anything more than a rush-job rehash with perhaps a slight watering down of the Traitor Legion rules.

It would actually be a GOOD thing if GW does the intelligent thing and leaves out the 4 Cult Legions...  Sure,  it means WE's & Emp's Children are 'stuck' with the Index for a bit longer,  but their pay-off will be huge when it comes. ;)

 

I don't expect any of our relics to change - so get used to the crappy piles of gak (except for the Black Mace & AoBF DP's),  with 1 of the relics from the TL codex making it back into the new book.

Our weapons won't get any better,  so things like Reaper Autocannons will still be junk compared to their Imperial equivalent...

Historically bland units like Chosen and even the newer Cultists will get screwed over again,  because Gee-Durp refuses to give us an actual model kit for them...

 

Overall,  I'm still 'expecting' us to remain effectively 'Loyalists -10',  due more-so to slightly worse rules and a model line that is 10-15 years out of date with the game.

I'm holding out a sliver of hope that GW will finally put some worthwhile effort into our codex,  and at least make Chosen into something akin to Veterans/Command Squad type of a 'unit of heroic/villainous individuals'.

[Closet Skeleton]

Our weapons won't get any better,  so things like Reaper Autocannons will still be junk compared to their Imperial equivalent...

 

Reaper Autocannon isn't junk compared to its loyalist equivalent (which are assault cannons and... reaper autocannons on heresy terminator kits), its just stupid that they're on non-terminator models.

 

Come on, its only been 2 years since loyalist marines weren't in the same situation. Chaos rules have sucked for a decade but that was down to designer incompetence and affected a lot of factions.

 

The basic problem is that if you 'fixed' chosen to be in line with loyalist veterans that would just make them even more bland and cookie cutter. The whole 'downplay the legions' thing was supposed to be about differentiating chaos from loyalists and look how that turned out.

 

If you want to be different and equal you're never going to be satisfied.