Probably two daft questions...

[The Gozfather]

Before I start, worth saying that I don't have the full new rulebook, just the battle primer free rules.

 

Q1. Now that templates and blasts are gone these weapons have random hits instead. At what point do you roll for the shots? I.e. for plasma cannon, declare target, roll D3, then roll X number of shots to see how many hit, OR declare target, roll 1 dice for hit, then multiply into D3 hits? Logically to me the second option seems best, as it's one 'shot' which hits a varying amount of enemies (like a grenade being thrown etc is only 1 grenade...). But then with weapons like the predator autocannon it makes sense that you know how many shots are being fired before you roll to hit... Answers much appreciated as it's not discussed in the free core rules or the FAQ.

 

Q2. Mixed saves in a unit. My VV's have some with storm shields and some without. I will allocate hits/wounds to the SS models as they have the best save. My VV's are a squad of 5, with 2 SS, 2 without, and a Sgt with SS. Say I take 5 hits and wounds from enemy fire, with no AP modifier. I want to take them all on the SS rank and file guys. I roll 5 Inv saves and fail 3. Who dies? Presumably the 2 SS guys who failed their Inv saves, and then a rank and file? Even though he failed an Inv save which he didn't actually have? The only way I can see it is to resolve each shot one (or two) at a time to see if my SS guys survive, but this seems a bit illogical when in reality all the 5 shots have occurred at the same time.

 

Apologies if these are covered in blinding clarity in the main rule book, I keep spending my money on models and paints not rules!  

[Paikis]

1. It's the first option. You roll for number of shots first. Then you roll that many dice to hit, then continue as normal.

 

2. You get to asign your wounds as you like, with some provisos. If you use a stormshield save, you asign wounds to models with stormshields. If a model has taken wounds previously, new wounds must be asigned to them first.

[The Gozfather]

 

2. You get to asign your wounds as you like, with some provisos. If you use a stormshield save, you asign wounds to models with stormshields. If a model has taken wounds previously, new wounds must be asigned to them first.

 

So in my example with 3 failed saves, I have to allocate two to the SS vets who then die, and the third unsaved wound would have to roll onto the Sgt as he also has a SS?

 

Someone commented on a different post about the value of not giving TH vets a SS, and giving your SS vets just bland power weapons so as when you fail the save you don't lose the best weapons, but if that comes at the cost of a Sgt....

[Arkhanist]

To confirm part 1 - it's under 'number of attacks' - you roll one (hit) dice per number of attacks in the weapon profile. A weapon with say, heavy 4, you'd roll 4 hit dice. Heavy D3, you'd roll a D3, then roll that many hit dice.

 

For part 2, you only (optionally) mass roll the hit and "to wound" dice - and that's if all the shots are from weapon(s) with the exact same profile on the same target unit. If not, you roll them one at a time. The rest of the process is done one attack at a time ('fast dice rolling' side bar)

 

In your case, as you do each successful wounding shot, you need to follow this process as owner of the unit one at a time:

1) is any member of the unit already wounded? In which case, they are the target

2) if not, I, the owner of the unit pick the target of the attack.

3) roll the appropriate save for that model

4) the attacker does any applicable damage roll (if necessary)

5) roll for disgustingly resilient, black rage etc for each wound

6) then subtract the successful wounds from that model's total.

7) If it gets to 0, it's dead, any leftover is wasted.

 

Then repeat from step 1 for the remaining hits.

 

So in your case, you've decided to take the hits on the storm shield VV because its a better save than armour we're assuming. You keep rolling their invuln saves one at a time, until the first 2 are dead. Now - you can take the next save using the storm shield on the sgt, or using the save of one of your normal guys. If they fail, they die cos 1 wound.

 

OR you could take the hits on the 'sacrificial' guys first, one at a time, and only once they're dead do you start putting them onto your more expensive guys. Your choice as unit owner, and no pre-existing wounded models. They don't even have to be in range or LoS of the firer, as long as they're in the same unit.

 

Note, cover saves update during this process too. So if you had some guys in cover, and some not, nobody gets a cover save (the whole unit has to be in cover to benefit) - unless you direct the hits on the guys outside of cover; and once they're dead, the rest of the unit that is now in cover gets the +1 to its save.

 

If all the hits are on the same unit with the same save value, 1 wound, same cover, no black rage etc, you can of course roll them together to save time. But in a unit with multi wounds or mixed saves, it's simpler in the long run to do them in sequence.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Arkhanist]

And since I've just thought of it, the core rules are now free. You only need the book for the missions, additional terrain types etc.

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40000-Rules

[LutherMax]

I knew you had to allocate wounds to any models already wounded first, but I didn't know you had to do saves in groups of the same type (in the above example storm shields).

 

Could someone point me to where that is in the rules?

[TheSauce]

You don't have to group up the saves like that, but for this instance "you" decided to:

 

So in your case, you've decided to take the hits on the storm shield VV because its a better save than armour we're assuming.

 

You can choose which model to take each save separately - you only have to abide by the "wounded model" rule.

 

Basically your opponent is handing you a die (a save) at a time, you're choosing the model to try with, and you're rolling to see if they pass. If you have a wounded model then you don't get to choose which model, you must use the wounded one.

 

In most situations your opponent will hand you a handful of saves to make at once in order to speed things up (make 3 saves at -2AP). You still get to make the decisions one save at a time if you want, or you can just say "I'm going to roll all of these on my storm shield guys" and roll them all at once.

 

One instance where it does matter that you're rolling each die separately would be if you have a unit with multiple wounds (like terminators) taking multiple damage wounds (like from lascannons). Then you pick a model, try to save the wound, and then figure out damage, as each shot may or may not kill a single model. You can speed this up by taking multiple saves at once, but your opponent must roll for damage one die at a time to account for this. For instance, if you take 5 lascannon saves and fail 3, your opponent would roll 3 damage dice. If they come up 1,6,1 then you would only lose 1 model, but 1,1,6 and you would lose two.

 

Hope that makes more sense.

[The Gozfather]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Q1 is answered, thanks, and I've almost *groan* got my head round the saves/wounds Q2.

 

 

In most situations your opponent will hand you a handful of saves to make at once in order to speed things up (make 3 saves at -2AP). You still get to make the decisions one save at a time if you want, or you can just say "I'm going to roll all of these on my storm shield guys" and roll them all at once.

 

 

This is basically where my question lies. My opponent hands me 4 dice at -2AP. I say "I'm going to roll all these on my storm shield guys" and roll them all at once.

 

3 saves fail.

 

Two storm shield guys die and are removed. Gone.

 

Where does the final wound go. In one sense the wound is 'lost' as the model is already dead, but that's not fair as you'd just take all 12 hits/wounds from an AC on one guy to stop them killing more. So it has to go to another model. BUT, the model it goes to (a rank a file guy with normal 3+ save, modified to 5+) is dying because he failed an Inv save which he doesn't have. Had he taken a normal Sv after the SS guys are removed he might have saved it.

 

Do we say that if you failed a 3++ then that also fails the 5+ the other guy would have taken in its place? Or if my Sgt also has a SS does the third wound have to go onto him as he also technically failed the saving throw that was being made.

 

The only way I can see it working is for me to say "I'm going to roll all these on my storm shield guys" and then roll 2 of the X wounds dice. 1 pass 1 fail. 1 removed. I then roll the remaining dice 1 at a time to see if the SS guy survives. If he fails I then chose another model and roll one a a time on him.

 

But this seems opposite to the 'fast rolling' dice etc!

[Panzer]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Q1 is answered, thanks, and I've almost *groan* got my head round the saves/wounds Q2.

 

 

In most situations your opponent will hand you a handful of saves to make at once in order to speed things up (make 3 saves at -2AP). You still get to make the decisions one save at a time if you want, or you can just say "I'm going to roll all of these on my storm shield guys" and roll them all at once.

 

 

This is basically where my question lies. My opponent hands me 4 dice at -2AP. I say "I'm going to roll all these on my storm shield guys" and roll them all at once.

 

3 saves fail.

 

Two storm shield guys die and are removed. Gone.

 

Where does the final wound go. In one sense the wound is 'lost' as the model is already dead, but that's not fair as you'd just take all 12 hits/wounds from an AC on one guy to stop them killing more. So it has to go to another model. BUT, the model it goes to (a rank a file guy with normal 3+ save, modified to 5+) is dying because he failed an Inv save which he doesn't have. Had he taken a normal Sv after the SS guys are removed he might have saved it.

 

Do we say that if you failed a 3++ then that also fails the 5+ the other guy would have taken in its place? Or if my Sgt also has a SS does the third wound have to go onto him as he also technically failed the saving throw that was being made.

 

The only way I can see it working is for me to say "I'm going to roll all these on my storm shield guys" and then roll 2 of the X wounds dice. 1 pass 1 fail. 1 removed. I then roll the remaining dice 1 at a time to see if the SS guy survives. If he fails I then chose another model and roll one a a time on him.

 

But this seems opposite to the 'fast rolling' dice etc!

No. It won't be lost. Normally you would resolve one dice after another because per the rules you roll shot for shot. Rolling more than one dice is just in order to speed things up but it doesn't change the outcome.

In order to prevent such confusion you would in your case just roll 2 of the 4 dice. If you manage one of the saves and the other goes through and kills one of the Stormshield guys you continue with rolling only one dice of your remaining 2 and see whether it kills your last Stormshield guy or not. If not you roll the last dice but if he got killed by the 3rd shot you just pick another model in the unit without a Stormshield and resolve the last dice against that one.

 

So yes your last conclusion on how to do it is right. It's not opposite to the fast rolling at all, it's just a limited way of fast dice rolling in order to keep everything in line with the rules.

[Arkhanist]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Q1 is answered, thanks, and I've almost *groan* got my head round the saves/wounds Q2.

 

 

The only way I can see it working is for me to say "I'm going to roll all these on my storm shield guys" and then roll 2 of the X wounds dice. 1 pass 1 fail. 1 removed. I then roll the remaining dice 1 at a time to see if the SS guy survives. If he fails I then chose another model and roll one a a time on him.

 

But this seems opposite to the 'fast rolling' dice etc!

 

This is the way to go. The 'Fast dice rolling' section of the rules says this (after rolling hits/wounds): "Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate." So that's how its intended to work.

 

If there's ambiguity about what saving throw you're rolling against - and the situation you've give certain qualifies - then you have to roll them 1 at a time.

 

Remember, you don't have to say 'I'm gonna take all of these on my SS guys' any more. You choose each time you have to roll a save as to which model in the unit is going to take it. So fine, you want to take it as many as you can on the two guys with SS first as they get a 3+ rather than the 5+ an ordinary guy gets after -2AP. Given there's two, you can afford to roll 2 the first time if you really want to as you've laid out. Once they're dead, if you've still got more wounds to try and save, it's up to you whether you want your sgt with SS to take a 3+, or an ordinary guy to take a 5+ and not risk the sgt. That's a tactical choice, and well, depends on which you think is the better one at the time.

 

By taking more save rolls than you have guys to fail them, you put yourself in an undetermined position that we can't answer, because the rules don't cover it. Without doing it sequentially, you don't even know which result belongs to which guy to know whether they pass or fail.

 

If you've mixed saves or multiwound models in a unit, do it one at time in sequence. It's the only answer that complies with the rules. And sanity.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Arkhanist