Space Wolf MathHammer (Melee)

[Guest]

The other chapters think of us barbaric and feral, which is true. They do not think us capable of
processing thinks like cold thinking. This shall be their undoing.

 

I am going to start a list of all the SW melee weapons and their statistical average of doing damage.
Right now I am focused on WS3 units (WG, BC, GH) and 3 enemy types. SM Tacticals, Ork Boyz, and
Death Guard Marines. IF YOU WANT ME TO CRUNCH THE NUMBERS FOR A CERTAIN WEAPON OR UNIT
SEND ME A PM.

 

These are statistical averages just because you did better or worst in a game does not mean the
numbers are wrong, just you rolled above or below average.

 

If you find a mistake in my information let me via PM ASAP so I can get it updated and get correct info
out to people. This list will take time to create.

All stats are based off 10-marine pack attacking, if you have only 5-marine pack half the result.

REMINDER: MAKE SURE TO LOOK UP A UNITS ATTACK SO YOU CAN ADJUST THE NUMBERS AS NEEDED.
WG HAVE 2 ATTACKS SO YOU MUST DOUBLE THE RESULT TO COMPENSATE FOR THAT.

 

I have highlight the best Points-Per-Damage in blue. The best Damage in green.

EQUATION

Number of attacks * Hit Chance * Wound Chance * Non-Save Chance (*/-+) Special Rules=Damage Dealt

Example 10 Chainswords vs SM

20 (attacks) * .668 (Hit Chance) * .50 (Wound Chance) * .334 (non-save chance)= 2.2 Damage Done

 

Dice Chances

Each side of a dice is roughly 16.7% chance. So a 3+ mean 66.8% chance.

 

Wound Chance

Based on attackers Strength vs defenders Toughness.
If Strength 2x more than Toughness, wound on 2+
If Strength more than Toughness, wound on 3+
If Strength equals Toughness, wound on 4+
If Strength less than Toughness, wound on a 5+
If Strength 2x less than Toughness, wound on a 6+

 

Save Chance
The Defenders Armor or invulnerability save that may prevent a wound

 

Special Rules
Items like Disgustingly Resilient which act like a Feel No Pain and completely ignore wounds.

 

CHAINSWORD

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U, AP:0, D:1
Special Rule: Chainswords may make an additional Attack

Points Per Weapon: 0

 

Space Marines (T:4,3+)
20 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 50% to wound, 66.8% save
Result: 2.2 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: N/A

 

Ork Boyz (T:4, 6+)
20 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 50% to wounds, 16.7% save
Result: 5.6 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: N/A

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
20 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 33.4% to wound, 66.8% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.0 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: N/A

 

POWER SWORD (cheapest option against SM's)

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U, AP:-3, D:1
Special Rule: None

Points Per Weapon: 4

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 50% to wound, 16.7% save
Result: 2.8 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 14.3

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 50% to wound, 0% save
Result: 3.3 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 12

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 33.4% to wound, 16.7% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.2 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 33.3

 

FROST SWORD

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U+1, AP:-3, D:1
Special Rule: None

Points Per Weapon: 7

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 16.7% save
Result: 3.7 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 18.9

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 15.6

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 50% to wound, 16.7% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.9 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 36.8

 

POWER AXE

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U+1, AP:-2, D:1
Special Rule: None

Points: 5

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 33.4% save
Result: 3.0 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 16.7

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 11.1

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 50% to wound, 33.4% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage:  33.3

 

FROST AXE

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U+2, AP:-2, D:1
Special Rule: None

Points: 7

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 33.4% save
Result: 3.0 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 23.3

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 15.6

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 33.4% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 2 Damage Done

Points Per Damage:  35

 

LIGHTNING CLAW

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U, AP:-2, D:1
Special Rule: May re-roll failed wound rolls. If armed with Dual Wolf Claws add +1 Attacks.

Points:9 (13 if dual)

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 89% to wound, 33.4% save
Result: 3.0 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 30

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 89% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 20

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 75% to wound, 33.4%% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.7 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 53.0

 

WOLF CLAW (currently best damage dealer against troops)

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:U+1, AP:-2, D:1
Special Rule: May re-roll failed wound rolls. If armed with Dual Wolf Claws add +1 Attacks.

Points:10 (14 if dual)

NOTICE: The new FAQ on 24 July 2017, states that Wolf Claws now cost 10/14 points and not 9/13.

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 89% to wound, 33.4% save
Result: 4.0 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 25

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 89% to wound, 0% save
Result: 5.9 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 17

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 75% to wound, 33.4%% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 2.2 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 45.5

 

POWER MAUL (currently cheapest options vs most troops)

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:+2, AP:-1, D:1
Special Rule: None

Points: 4

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 50% save
Result: 2.2 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 18.2

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 8.9

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 66.8% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 50% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.5 Damage Done

Points Per Damage: 26.7

 

POWER FIST

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:Ux2, AP:-3, D:D3 (this averages to be 2 damage)
Special Rule: subtract 1 from hit roll (effectively making WS3 to WS4)

Points: 20

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 83.5% to wound, 16.7% save
Result: 3.5 Damage Done (this would be 7.0 damage but since it only hit+damage 3.5x, and SM only have 1 wound it only causes 3.5 kills)

Points Per Damage: 57.1

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 83.5% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.2 Damage Done (this would be 8.4 damage but since it only hit+damage 4.2x, and Boyz only have 1 wound it only causes 4.2 kills)

Points Per Damage: 47.6

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 16.7% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.9 Damage Done (this would be 3.8 damage but since it only hit+damage 1.9x, and Death Guard only have 1 wound it only causes 1.9 kills)

Points Per Damage: 105./3

 

THUNDER HAMMER

Unit WS: 3
Stats: S:Ux2, AP:-3, D:3
Special Rule: subtract 1 from hit roll (effectively making WS3 to WS4)

Points: 20 (25 for characters, but this is based on normal units)

 

Space Marines
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 83.5% to wound, 16.7% save
Result: 3.5 Damage Done (this would be 10.5 damage but since it only hit+damage 3.5x, and SM only have 1 wound it only causes 3.5 kills)

Points Per Damage: 57.1

 

Ork Boyz
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 83.5% to wound, 0% save
Result: 4.2 Damage Done (this would be 12.6 damage but since it only hit+damage 4.2x, and Boyz only have 1 wound it only causes 4.2 kills)

Points Per Damage: 47.6

 

Death Guard (T5, 3+, 5+ Disgustingly Resilient)
10 Attacks, 50% chance to hit, 66.8% to wound, 16.7% save, 33.4% special rule save
Result: 1.9 Damage Done (this would be 5.7 damage but since it only hit+damage 1.9x, and Death Guard only have 1 wound it only causes 1.9 kills)

Points Per Damage: 105./3

Edited July 24, 2017 by Caldersson

[Anarnii]

Interesting, have you looked at points per wound?

[Ulrin]

I'm a bit confused by your equation notation, but the math seems sound so I'm assuming it's right.


And points per wound would be a great addition!

Edited July 20, 2017 by Ulrin

[Guest]

I'm a bit confused by your equation notation, but the math seems sound so I'm assuming it's right.

 

 

And points per wound would be a great addition!

 

Easily doable but its gets wanky with things like Chainswords costing 0 points.

[The Unseen]

To adjust for the Chainsword costing 0, have the base "points" be 13, for a power armoured marine with a chainsword, and then add the other weapons cost.

[temneb]

Not sure if it was a typo. But wolf claws re roll to wound, not hit.

[Deadnaughty]

yeah the math on the wolf claw is wrong. However it only effects the Deathguard which will be slightly higher.

[jerrys]

Where's the thunderhammer, man? :)

 

I've got an overly-complicated (and still somewhat incomplete) mathhammer thing that I just updated for 8E, that I can run stuff through if people are interested (which stuff?).

 

Here's some random smattering of stuff that seems to be true, from that:

 

Things that seem good:

 - murderfang

 - ws=2+ characters with thunderhammers, in pretty much any context (e.g. shield/hammer wgbl with a jump pack, on a wolf, with a goat, on a boat...)

 - assault cannon razorbacks

 - rhinos/razorbacks in general are tough now

 - dreadnoughts and ven. dreadnoughts in melee (if you could get them there)

 - plasma cannons vs infantry

 - lascannons vs vehicles and characters

 - land raider crusaders are pretty point-efficient against weaker armor infantry (which is terrifying given how much they cost). And land raiders are tough. Nothing in my simulation can do more than 30% of its own points against a LR per turn.

 - blood claws are efficient against stuff with weak armor. Maybe consider just leaving the chainsword on the PL instead of giving him a power weapon (get the extra attack).

 - stormwolf is still good, but it costs a lot more and is easier to take out

 - melta is good vs vehicles/monsters/characters... but i don't know if you can get into range?

 

i think skyclaws or jump pawg can punch/hammer flyers out of the sky, which even if it's not efficient I'm still going to try to do

 

lone wolves are not as good as they were, sadly

whirlwinds and vindicators are bad

basilisks and leman russ tanks seem worse than they were.

 

wyverns are bad news

knight titans are bad news

smite is bad news

daemon princes are bad news in melee, plus they have smite

[Guest]

Where's the thunderhammer, man?

 

I've got an overly-complicated (and still somewhat incomplete) mathhammer thing that I just updated for 8E, that I can run stuff through if people are interested (which stuff?).

 

Here's some random smattering of stuff that seems to be true, from that:

 

Things that seem good:

 - murderfang

 - ws=2+ characters with thunderhammers, in pretty much any context (e.g. shield/hammer wgbl with a jump pack, on a wolf, with a goat, on a boat...)

 - assault cannon razorbacks

 - rhinos/razorbacks in general are tough now

 - dreadnoughts and ven. dreadnoughts in melee (if you could get them there)

 - plasma cannons vs infantry

 - lascannons vs vehicles and characters

 - land raider crusaders are pretty point-efficient against weaker armor infantry (which is terrifying given how much they cost). And land raiders are tough. Nothing in my simulation can do more than 30% of its own points against a LR per turn.

 - blood claws are efficient against stuff with weak armor. Maybe consider just leaving the chainsword on the PL instead of giving him a power weapon (get the extra attack).

 - stormwolf is still good, but it costs a lot more and is easier to take out

 - melta is good vs vehicles/monsters/characters... but i don't know if you can get into range?

 

i think skyclaws or jump pawg can punch/hammer flyers out of the sky, which even if it's not efficient I'm still going to try to do

 

lone wolves are not as good as they were, sadly

whirlwinds and vindicators are bad

basilisks and leman russ tanks seem worse than they were.

 

wyverns are bad news

knight titans are bad news

smite is bad news

daemon princes are bad news in melee, plus they have smite

 

 

Got busy dealing with work. It is coming, just need to confirm some issues that I ran across. I also started doing Rhino's into the equation so that things like Power Fists and Thunder Hammers can show their strengths as otherwise they look pathetic. 

 

Edit: Posted it anyways, may not be right math. Still checking the rules on some of this stuff.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Caldersson

[Guest]

So the wolf claws have a re-roll to wound.

 

On average in wounds a SM 66.8% of the time, leaving 33.2 left to re-roll for. 66.8% of 33.2% is 22.2%. 66.8+22.2=89%. So 89% of the time it is wounding a SM? 

 

Wolf Claw may be our best weapon especially since it cost the exact same as Lighting Claw. 

 

 

 

Power Maul seems to hit a sweet spot of Points and damage. It has a increase to +2 strength, causing a unit to have 6 strength. This means we are injuring on everything including DG on a 4+. It also has 1 AP meaning that it helps reduce that save roll or eliminiate it in the case of the Boyz. At 4 points its a sweet weapon to have for those low cost lists.

[Guest]

I'm a bit confused by your equation notation, but the math seems sound so I'm assuming it's right.

 

 

And points per wound would be a great addition!

 

I clarified the equation and gave an example, let me know what you think.

[jerrys]

 

Got busy dealing with work. It is coming, just need to confirm some issues that I ran across. I also started doing Rhino's into the equation so that things like Power Fists and Thunder Hammers can show their strengths as otherwise they look pathetic. 

 

Edit: Posted it anyways, may not be right math. Still checking the rules on some of this stuff.

 

[...]

 

On average in wounds a SM 66.8% of the time, leaving 33.2 left to re-roll for. 66.8% of 33.2% is 22.2%. 66.8+22.2=89%. So 89% of the time it is wounding a SM?

 

That's right. I'd do it as: you have to miss wounding twice in a row in order to miss wounding. so 33.2%*33.2%=11% (or 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9). So it wounds 100-11=89% of the time (or 1 - 1/9 = 8/9 of the time).

 

Ah, also: here's a link to a sort of halfassed web UI to my simulator, if any of you guys are interested.

I can try to add new units and special rules if you have suggestions. (e.g. I don't have any power maul units in there.)

http://www.aurumvorax.com/40ksim/do-battle.php?battle_type=assault&num_matches=1&unit1=3-twc.txt&unit2=30-guardsmen.txt

The most obvious missing piece so far is: vehicles don't lose effectiveness as they are wounded. I'll implement that ... some day...

[Ulrin]

 

I'm a bit confused by your equation notation, but the math seems sound so I'm assuming it's right.

 

 

And points per wound would be a great addition!

 

I clarified the equation and gave an example, let me know what you think.

 

I managed to read it this time before my morning coffee, so it's good enough for me ;)

[Guest]

New FAQ adjusts the cost of Wolf Claws from 9/13 to 10/14. This has been updated.

[TheWolfLord]

I think the points per damage is a little wonky because you aren't taking into account the cost of the model using it.

 

For example 10 Grey Hunters wielding Power Swords (impossible I know) isn't as as points efficient as 10 Grey Hunters wielding Frost Swords.

 

I think basing it on 30 attacks from Wolf Guard makes the most sense to get a usable result.

 

Wolf Guard are the only units where each model can be armed with one of these weapons.

 

30 attacks means 15 Wolf Guard for most weapons and 10 Wolf Guard for Chainswords and duel Wolf Claws.

 

To get the true cost per wound you need to divide the total cost of the Wolf Guard by the total wounds caused.

 

15 Wolf Guard with Power Swords cost 300 points and cause 8.4 wounds against Space Marines, that's 35.7 points per wound.

15 Wolf Guard with Frost Swords cost 345 points and cause 11.1 wounds against Space Marines, that's 31.1 points per wound.

15 Wolf Guard with Wolf Claws cost 390 points and cause 12 wounds against Space Marines, that's 32.5 points per wound.

10 Wolf Guard with duel Wolf Claws (still 30 attacks) cost 300 points and cause 12 wounds against Space Marines, that's 25 points per wound.

10 Wolf Guard with Chainsword (still 30 attacks) costs 160 points and cause 6.6 wounds against Space Marines, that's 24.2 points per wound.

 

 

2 Chainswords will be the best value per wound loadout but can't take any ranged weapons. That's only against Space Marines too, the higher toughness and better saving throws will change this.

[TheWolfLord]

The cheaper the base cost of the model the better value the cheaper weapons become, the more expensive the base cost of the model the better value the more expensive weapons become as the relative % cost of the weapon decreases.

[Silverwolf]

Okay, so threw this together trying to look at the points viability of Primaris Marines vs our standard troops, works for both shooting and melee;

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LT7G2DVx2j2qAyoSMUq-JDhbxh2d9gQ9l4rrELhFlXQ/edit?usp=sharing

 

I've very specifically not included pre-filled stats, because shenanigans regarding rules leaking etc, however as long as you have your codex, fill in values in green cells, and let the sheet calculations do the rest for you.

 

Note: This does not presently deal with re-rolls etc as I was looking at simple shooting attacks only, but then realised could be used for melee as well. Will update for re-rolls later, or someone else can do so and re-share :)

Edited July 26, 2017 by Silverwolf

[jerrys]

So, what kind of enemies do you send these units against?

 

The choice of weapon depends on this, obviously.

 

What role do you assign to a unit of power-weapon-using wolf guard -- i.e., to go after what target?

What about grey hunters or blood claws?

Is it against weaker infantry, like tau or guardsmen?

Or back-line artillery? Or what?