Dragoons and Ironstriders in 8th

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

So I've been looking at a new 8th army and I've always wanted to start admech, even long before they were actually introduced to 40k. I've seen most people review or at least talk about what works this edition, but the board seems mostly silent on the $50 bastards.

 

So has anyone tried to use any of the varients? On paper the taser lance Dragoons seem really strong in large numbers, even though that would make them the most expensive army in the game haha. But I haven't seen or heard of anyone fielding them this edition.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Lucky for you I had a game with 4 Dragoons and 2 Ironstriders on Sunday (vs Chaos) and yesterday another one with 3 Dragoons and 2 Ironstriders (vs Salamanders) ;-)

 

My experience: I love them, but not (only) because of the speed and the damage output, but they are amazing to fill gaps in your deployment zone to deny your enemy a chance to shock in his reserves (9” min distance).

The big bases cover a lot of ground, price is cheapish and they are fast enough to get into the game even if you deploy them at your backline.

I only used single walkers to be as flexible as possible. This of course has 2 disadvantages:

It is easier for the opponent to get first blood.

You have more units to deploy, so a better chance for you to go second.

In my game against Chaos I positioned the Striders at the back and the Dragoons at the very frontline, so that I did not only deny him the deepstrike in my deployment zone, he had to put his reserves 9” away direclty in forn of my army with only some Dragoons and a few Vanguards close enough to charge them. This way at least 1 round of shooting at these reserves is guaranteed, and Ad Mech shooting hurts !

 

Now the units themselves:

Dragoons with Lances are nice for what they cost, but since they do not have any AP you need to be kind of lucky to deal a lot of damage. With 3 attacks it also isn’t that likely to get some 6es.

All they did in my games (besides blocking space) was to strip of a few hull points from Rhinos and kill a few Marines, then they ate Melters. The damage was definitive not enough to cover their costs.

 

Ironstriders are completely different. I have only 2 of them with Auto Canon, but damn these 4 shots hitting on 3s with probably a reroll thanks to Tech Priest or Canticle hurt. I am not sure what they killed, but I am pretty sure it was more than the Ironstriders costs. Especially the 2 damage per wound makes them good at killing Terminators, Bikes and the likes, but they can also rip apart AVs.

 

So my conclusion:

Dragoons are better speedbumps than Vanguard, since they are tougher, faster and they can hurt something in CC. Only downside: A little more expensive.

Ironstriders are good in the backfield, and if needed they can break through later in the game to get linebreaker or objectives. Thanks to Cognis they also have the option to advance and still hurt stuff, just not as much as when standing still.

Edited July 21, 2017 by DeStinyFiSh

[lancerusso]

Autocannons quickly make their money back vs Primaris marines, terminators and bikers, as well as T6/7 generally.

 

Lascannon striders I haven't tried but I can see them being a waste considering they aren't BS5+ for two turns anymore, and they'll be wounding most vehicles on 3+, but just as likely to do 1 damage as 6 damage.

 

Taser Dragoons are swish, fast moving and powerful, but 3A does not make up for AP0. I use these as speedbumps, objective holders and to charge at characters. If I'm hoping for my opponent to fail some 2+/3+ armour saves I'll be making him roll them on his lynchpin units- a knight, vehicles, warlord, characters. They can move fast enough, though relatively difficult to fit them through enemy lines, so you need to make sure you thin squads out appropriately or advance them way across the board to force your opponent to displace themselves or focus fire them - and they have hard to hit and are relatively resilient vehicles that don't get worse as they are damaged.

 

Sniper Dragoons I don't think are amazing unless you're needing to snipe low save characters like commissars (convenient given their metaness). They work very similarly to taser Dragoons given their lack of ap and bonuses on 6s, as well as low number of shots. These Dragoons definitely need the ability to come in from any table edge and charge or shoot, aligns with fluff and their old rules as well as synergising by providing optimum line of sight for snipers and offering better charging lines for the dragoons.

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

Ok you guys are saying more or less what I'd expected. I didn't consider the base size though.

 

Has anyone tried running max squads yet? Three seems optimal but I'm wondering how scary a 400pt blob of lances actually is.

Ok you guys are saying more or less what I'd expected. I didn't consider the base size though.

 

Has anyone tried running max squads yet? Three seems optimal but I'm wondering how scary a 400pt blob of lances actually is.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I dont see a benefit from such a large unit... since they can get hurt by pretty much everything on a 5+ or better I think it is to expensive and deals so much damage, so every gun will point at them and they die quickly. Thats my feeling.

 

I think keeping them small might be the better tactic, you might get more milage out of a single Dragoon sneeking through enemy lines and tie a shooty unit up in combat or grab an objective.

[lancerusso]

I dont see a benefit from such a large unit... since they can get hurt by pretty much everything on a 5+ or better I think it is to expensive and deals so much damage, so every gun will point at them and they die quickly. Thats my feeling.

 

I think keeping them small might be the better tactic, you might get more milage out of a single Dragoon sneeking through enemy lines and tie a shooty unit up in combat or grab an objective.

Yeah, I think the only reasons you would take multiple in an unit are because of: limited FA slots, to not give a free first blood, and to help ensure not dying to overwatch when charging ( happens VERY often)

[Yoda79]

Dragoon : 1-2 no serpenta . I found in my games a unit of two being the best option. They hold aline from deep strikes with big bases. They can move fast an empty side as fast cappers and two of them wont give first blood unless enemy spends some serious shooting. They are a vehicle so either my enemy deep strike and charge them or waste some good number of shots to kill two with -1 they have on hit. Tried with one becomes a first blood each game and its two good purposes hold a side of deep strike or advqnce in a side wont work with only 1. Twomight provide a 6 might thin a5 man holding ojb etc. More are a waste or you making a counter list.

 

 

Balistari : they only viable /cost is with lascannon. If you playing max 1500-1900 lists then a balistari with lascannon can fit an onager spot. If you play bigger games ans i suggest you shoukd either way do so take an onager instead. Cheap maybe 1 but but but. Why. Onager moves 8 and shoots got 11wounds better gun better defence . As said maybe 1for 95 points for smaller lists.

[Suzuteo]

Taser Dragoons are the best screening unit in AdMech. I personally have dropped all of my Vanguard in favor of 4-6 Dragoons. I place them up front as my screen. Just pick a corner of the map and have them placed 18" in front of your army. Their job is to prevent a turn one charge. Aim to Shroudpsalm every turn. Makes it really tough to take them down; anything that can, I would much rather aim at the Dragoons than my Crawlers and Kastelans.

 

As the game proceeds, your shooting is going to take their toll on the opponent's army. This is where the Dragoons can be used for cleanup. After all, something has to run out to grab those objectives.

 

Lascannon Ironstriders are also great, but you only should go into them when you're full up on Heavy Support slots; Neutron Crawlers are strictly better. Autocannon is circumstantial, but not as good as Kastelans or Icarus Crawlers for anti-horde.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Taser Dragoons are the best screening unit in AdMech. I personally have dropped all of my Vanguard in favor of 4-6 Dragoons. I place them up front as my screen. Just pick a corner of the map and have them placed 18" in front of your army. Their job is to prevent a turn one charge. Aim to Shroudpsalm every turn. Makes it really tough to take them down; anything that can, I would much rather aim at the Dragoons than my Crawlers and Kastelans.

 

As the game proceeds, your shooting is going to take their toll on the opponent's army. This is where the Dragoons can be used for cleanup. After all, something has to run out to grab those objectives.

 

Lascannon Ironstriders are also great, but you only should go into them when you're full up on Heavy Support slots; Neutron Crawlers are strictly better. Autocannon is circumstantial, but not as good as Kastelans or Icarus Crawlers for anti-horde.

 

I agree with you regarding the Dragoons.

 

Regarding Ironstriders with Laser:

I have never tried the laser option, I always went with the Autocanons and I love them. I have got the feeling we have more than enough options to deal with the big stuff, so I do not see the need to bring additional lasers.

The Autocanons on the other hand provide great firepower to get rid of tougher 2W models like Bikes, Primaris Marines, TEQs etc. They are not good enough for horde controll and to weak to be a threat to bigger AVs and MCs, but everything in between looks like a juicy target.

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

Taser Dragoons are the best screening unit in AdMech. I personally have dropped all of my Vanguard in favor of 4-6 Dragoons. I place them up front as my screen. Just pick a corner of the map and have them placed 18" in front of your army. Their job is to prevent a turn one charge. Aim to Shroudpsalm every turn. Makes it really tough to take them down; anything that can, I would much rather aim at the Dragoons than my Crawlers and Kastelans.

 

As the game proceeds, your shooting is going to take their toll on the opponent's army. This is where the Dragoons can be used for cleanup. After all, something has to run out to grab those objectives.

 

Lascannon Ironstriders are also great, but you only should go into them when you're full up on Heavy Support slots; Neutron Crawlers are strictly better. Autocannon is circumstantial, but not as good as Kastelans or Icarus Crawlers for anti-horde.

This is more or less the conclusion I've come to regarding admech. I've been theorycrafting for almost a month now and I'm torn between two lists. One is similar to what you described with onagers spammed and screened by dragoons. The other is a Tau list spamming commanders and ghostkeels. They both follow a similar function but the tau list screens better against shooty while the admech handles melee a bit better.

 

Frankly I'm torn, but I'll wait until either the tau or admech dex gets released to decide.

[Suzuteo]

 

This is more or less the conclusion I've come to regarding admech. I've been theorycrafting for almost a month now and I'm torn between two lists. One is similar to what you described with onagers spammed and screened by dragoons. The other is a Tau list spamming commanders and ghostkeels. They both follow a similar function but the tau list screens better against shooty while the admech handles melee a bit better.

 

Frankly I'm torn, but I'll wait until either the tau or admech dex gets released to decide.

 

Haha. If it helps you make the decision, AdMech usually outshoots Tau. Crawlers have 48" range, with the Icarus melting Battlesuits like it's nobody's business. The only thing I ever worry about are those Coldstars, which blow right past my screen to shoot and punch my Kastelans in the face.

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

 

 

This is more or less the conclusion I've come to regarding admech. I've been theorycrafting for almost a month now and I'm torn between two lists. One is similar to what you described with onagers spammed and screened by dragoons. The other is a Tau list spamming commanders and ghostkeels. They both follow a similar function but the tau list screens better against shooty while the admech handles melee a bit better.

 

Frankly I'm torn, but I'll wait until either the tau or admech dex gets released to decide.

 

Haha. If it helps you make the decision, AdMech usually outshoots Tau. Crawlers have 48" range, with the Icarus melting Battlesuits like it's nobody's business. The only thing I ever worry about are those Coldstars, which blow right past my screen to shoot and punch my Kastelans in the face.

Yeah my main issue was the high unit count admech players were forced to deal with, but today they just spoiled a bit of chapter approved, so it isn't an issue anymore. Looks like I'm jumping on the admech train after all!

 

Now I just have to figure out how many onagers is too many...

[Midlight]

No amount of Onagers is too many.

[Suzuteo]

I personally prefer 4 Crawlers. Even numbers let them have their shields and split up with the second Dominus to cover longer deployment zones.

[DeStinyFiSh]

No amount of Onagers is too many.

 

Well... you need something to protect them from CC units. In one of my first games I did some mistakes with my deployment and my opponent was constantly able to block at least 2 of my 4 Crab Walkers from shooting. So puting all your points in Onagers and Phosphor Robots will propably not lead to victorious battles.

[Warsmith Manat-Yi]

 

 

No amount of Onagers is too many.

Well... you need something to protect them from CC units. In one of my first games I did some mistakes with my deployment and my opponent was constantly able to block at least 2 of my 4 Crab Walkers from shooting. So puting all your points in Onagers and Phosphor Robots will propably not lead to victorious battles.

 

Sure haha that's actually part of the point of this thread. Dragoons seem to be the ideal wall for a traditional gunline.

 

I'm looking at four crawlers with Cawl and at least 4 dragoons. Maybe more. After that I'm not entirely sure what's necessary. I might squeeze in some infantry to fill space. Maybe a squad of punchy bots or two.

 

Although this is 8th, so the best idea seems to always be to spam as much of the best unit as you can.

[Suzuteo]

 

 

No amount of Onagers is too many.

Well... you need something to protect them from CC units. In one of my first games I did some mistakes with my deployment and my opponent was constantly able to block at least 2 of my 4 Crab Walkers from shooting. So puting all your points in Onagers and Phosphor Robots will propably not lead to victorious battles.

 

Sure haha that's actually part of the point of this thread. Dragoons seem to be the ideal wall for a traditional gunline.

 

I'm looking at four crawlers with Cawl and at least 4 dragoons. Maybe more. After that I'm not entirely sure what's necessary. I might squeeze in some infantry to fill space. Maybe a squad of punchy bots or two.

 

Although this is 8th, so the best idea seems to always be to spam as much of the best unit as you can.

 

I do 4 Crawlers, 2-4 Kastelans, 4-6 Dragoons, and perhaps a Knight Crusader or Patrol Detachment of Scions.