Excited about Marauders with Sniper Rifles

[sanityimpaired]

One of the things CSM and Daemons lack is snipers, so things like IG conscript blobs become a problem without a good way to deal with commissars.

So I've been looking at having one or two vanguard detachments consisting of:
Malefic Lord - 30 pts
3xMarauders Squad, stalkers, 3 autoguns, 2 sniper rifles - 34 pts each

132 points for a detachment of 6 snipers with a psyker and 9 ablative wounds with autoguns is outstanding, and the extra CP is just icing.  That's not much more than 6 Eldar rangers for equally good snipers, but you get a lot more on top of that.


Seems like there's a lot of good to be had in R&H, which I've never really looked at before.

[Kinstryfe]

I've found the funniest thing of theorizing is that everything is just so darn cheap, and I think people are only just starting to realize that Chaos now has some options that were traditionally Imperium only. I got bored, counted the stuff I already own, and mocked up a 2000pt list with 180+ infantry, plus another 45 heavy weapon teams. There's also great option for cp spam. 127pts for a Commander and 3 minimum sniper squads in a Vanguard. 97 for a Spearhead detachment with a Commander and 3x Mortar Squads. Supreme Command detachment with 3 Malefic Lords for under 100 as well. Not only can we just put insane amounts of boots on the ground, we're now usable with Chaos Marine and Daemon armies. I'm having more fun building crazy theoretical lists than in pretty much any edition before.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've also been thinking about how I can add renegades to my CSM. It seems like, unless your army is going to be fairly small to get the first turn, there's no reason not to spam a ton of units, even if small. This can hurt you in some missions where people get a victory point for each kill, but it also helps you in others where you need more squads to cap points.

 

I've been considering the efficiency of running Marauder snipers and Heavy Weapon teams rather than pure Havocs. I'll take the havocs for lascannons, but heavy weapon teams seem fine for heavy bolter spam. You hit 1 out of 3 instead of 2 out of 3, but they're so damn cheap!

 

The main thing making it difficult to compare is that we don't yet know what Warband/Legion rules we'll be losing out of by using Renegades instead of CSM. Gotta wait for that Codex.

[Kinstryfe]

Keep in mind that with the new system, unless the Legion rules end up being so strict that they require ALL units to be {legion} units, that the only effect would be that renegade units can't use their transports and bubble effects. Shouldn't be too bad at all.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Keep in mind that with the new system, unless the Legion rules end up being so strict that they require ALL units to be {legion} units, that the only effect would be that renegade units can't use their transports and bubble effects. Shouldn't be too bad at all.

 

It looks like they'll probably have to keep the whole detachment as having the Legion keyword, but you could have other detachments of Renegades.

[sanityimpaired]

I'm assuming we'll only get legion specific benefits for detachments consisting of one legion.

Which is just another reason to toss in a Malefic Lord and make a Vanguard detachment.

I did exactly that in a game two days ago, but also tossed in a pair of earthshaker cannons.  Both of us were very dug in, so the Lord wasn't able to get within 18" to smite safely until the end, but I still got far more than my points worth.

[N1SB]

This is a great topic and I especially appreciated it because I hadn't considered these ideas before.  Instead...

 

we're now usable with Chaos Marine and Daemon armies. I'm having more fun building crazy theoretical lists than in pretty much any edition before.

 

...I was exactly obsessing over the above idea, specifically Daemons with the Astra Militarum tanks that Renegades & Heretics "carjacked" for them (my current project is Patient Zero, a Guardsman fleeing from a Nurgle epidemic that's ravaged every planet he's been to, not knowing that HE is the primary carrier/Typhoid Mary of that very disease).  It's like how Genestealer Cult got access to Tanks to complement Tyranids in late last edition, but better IMHO.

 

I've been reading and observing games and keeping quiet, and so far this has been my favourite 8th ed thread for these simple ideas I previously overlooked, particularly this one in the original post:

 

One of the things CSM and Daemons lack is snipers, so things like IG conscript blobs become a problem without a good way to deal with commissars.

132 points for a detachment of 6 snipers with a psyker and 9 ablative wounds with autoguns is outstanding, and the extra CP is just icing.  That's not much more than 6 Eldar rangers for equally good snipers, but you get a lot more on top of that.

Seems like there's a lot of good to be had in R&H, which I've never really looked at before.

 

I never looked at R&H in this way before either until you mentioned it.  Great analysis, very relevant.

 

Snipers are even more relevant in this age of "buff bubbles" work.  132 pts is a great deal because, not only is that on par with equivalent units in other factions but better, but also even if the Character himself is worth less than that you have to consider the cost of all the units he is buffing.  It's a deterrent that can slow a whole army down because the Leader the army is counting on doesn't want to leave that Line-of-Sight covering wall.

 

Chaos finally getting this fantastic Sniper options is great.  I think is just overlooked for now.

 

This is such a great utility plug & play powertoy that can find a place in many Chaos general's toolkits.

 

I've also been thinking about how I can add renegades to my CSM. It seems like, unless your army is going to be fairly small to get the first turn, there's no reason not to spam a ton of units, even if small. This can hurt you in some missions where people get a victory point for each kill, but it also helps you in others where you need more squads to cap points.

 

I've been considering the efficiency of running Marauder snipers and Heavy Weapon teams rather than pure Havocs. I'll take the havocs for lascannons, but heavy weapon teams seem fine for heavy bolter spam. You hit 1 out of 3 instead of 2 out of 3, but they're so damn cheap!

 

The main thing making it difficult to compare is that we don't yet know what Warband/Legion rules we'll be losing out of by using Renegades instead of CSM. Gotta wait for that Codex.

 

Great point about Kill Points.  Gotta keep that in mind.  I think with Marauder Snipers in particular are really ok for 2 reasons: they're a very annoying deterrent rather than a key priority target, but they're also way in the back.  With the ablative Wounds and the Stalker special rules, they're really an unattractive target.  Sometimes that's the best defense.

 

Which is why I like the Sniper Marauders more than, say, Flamer Marauders with Covenant of Slaanesh...a pity because that'd have been so cool.

 

Also a great point about the anticipated "army-wide" rules and how this plug & play Sniper detachment would fit in...

 

I'm assuming we'll only get legion specific benefits for detachments consisting of one legion.

Which is just another reason to toss in a Malefic Lord and make a Vanguard detachment.

 

I agree with this.  I know it's still speculative at this point (because we're still waiting for the 1st 8th ed codex rather than index, to show us the frameworks 8th ed will work with), but I've been just softly reminding people this is the flexible Age of Detachments, Keywords, not the Age of Force Org Charts nor Formations.

 

With "You Can Make Any Army You Want" being one of the key design choices/selling points (not accidental, they dedicated multiple posts in Warhammer Community on this idea), I feel they will add some special rules for Detachments rather than Army-wide.  The idea is, I don't think you'll lose out on a Chaos Space Marine Legion-specific buff by taking some R&H Marauders, it doesn't screw up the deal, it's just that the R&H component won't benefit from it.

 

Coincidentally, I was reading a Warhammer Community post about the coming Age of Sigmar General's Handbook 2017 just today.  They ARE adding the equivalent of Warband/Legion special rules that only apply to units with a specific keyword...but does NOT restrict you to ONLY use units with that keyword.  It's just others don't get anything from it.  And for a cheap 132 point detachment, it's no big loss.  I know I'm referencing AoS, but I'm only using this very recently released info to illustrate this is how GW thinks about game design now across the board.

 

The major thing I'm reminding a lot of players when they're theorycrafting armies is they're still in the mindset of limited battle role slots, i.e. "which is the best Fast Attack/Heavy Support, etc." because they still frame their thinking in the old FOC, where we read reviews of what's the "best" unit in each aspect and end up spamming 3 Helldrakes because that's what we saw everyone else doing.  Now, we don't have to worry about limited Elite slots because, hey, Vanguard Detachment (i.e. the 1 HQ + 3 Elites one).

 

The actual limitation now seems to just be the HQ tax, which can be substantial depending on the Faction.  But not here.  Here, you get a very good value-for-points psyker that has a special version of Smite in his Warp Flux power.  I can also see the value of adding a Renegade Commander instead for the Covenant buff...which incidentally doesn't require you to be close to your units to be in effect, so you can hide him in a corner.

 

+++

 

Just a final personal point of why I, too, am excited about Marauders with Sniper Rifles beyond game mechanics:

 

It really allows for a very thematic "freedom fighter" army.

 

Small ragtag bands of fighters with a penchant for guerrilla warfare, using their familiarity with their terrain and Sniping tactics in a war of independence against an empire?  If you want to do Renegades WITHOUT the Heretics element, this would be such a signature unit for that theme.

 

This concept of separatists doesn't come up much in actual 40k games, but it is a feature in 30k with Imperial Militias and Cults armies (the ones with the Provenances to reflect their world/culture) and in the Dark Heresy RPG.  There are discontented Imperial citizens who just don't agree with how Terran bureaucracy wants to run their world.  They're not necessarily Chaos worshippers; in fact, in the Dark Heresy campaign I played in they were faithful to the Emperor, but not to the politicians that govern in his name.

 

Something simple like a colonist Sniper Rifle, in Dark Heresy there's a Homestead Rifle that's basically a crappy gun given to colonists to encourage them to set up a farm in an Ork-infested jungle, goes a long way in applying a look & feel of this type of concept.

 

Been looking for ideas to represent this theme for a long time.  Thanks for providing this last piece of the puzzle.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Keep in mind that with the new system, unless the Legion rules end up being so strict that they require ALL units to be {legion} units, that the only effect would be that renegade units can't use their transports and bubble effects. Shouldn't be too bad at all.

Speaking of transports, here's another good use for Marauders:

 

5 Marauders: 2 Shotguns, 2 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon/Fist of choice. Heretek specialization

 

5 Marauders: 2 Shotguns, 2 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon/Fist of choice. Heretek specialization

 

Malefic Lord

 

Malefic Lord

 

Repeat the above 3 times. Throw the whole lot in a squadron of 3 upgraded Arvus Lighters. Melt faces via Smite/Plasma apocalypse. Will require some non-trivial firepower to remove after they've done work. They WILL die, but the damage they inflict, especially to armored units, will be felt.

 

Please note that the entire thing is 1 drop. All 3 Arvuses set up as a squadron and they each contain one helping of the Marauder/Marauder/Lord/Lord combo.

 

If necessary, it can drop in 9 in away from enemy after play starts, too....as long as you have some other stuff to start on the ground.

 

If you want to be a real jerk, just repeat the above twice for an entire 2 drop army. Half on the table, and half "flying high."

 

To return to topic, somewhat, you can also do this with snipers, sacrificing some accuracy on the first turn for complete freedom of deployment.

Edited July 29, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Galron]

As a Spearhead detachment for my Iron Warriors army I am having 2 Marauder squads with sniper rifles, a malefic lord, 2 Medusa, 2 Bombard. I would prefer to just bring straight traitor guard but that not currently an option. The snipers will help with the anti-DS bubble since this army lacks large numbers of units to cover space with. They will be sharing the backfield after the 1st turn with a Dorito Dread and a havoc squad. The snipers obvious purpose is to snipe characters although I have to say, my Elysian snipers tend to fail that role.

[Syrakul]

I've been reading this for a bit and have been making 2 squads of 5 with 2 snipers, and ran them in one game. I was only able to get 2 6s to wound all game but the squads were mostly left alone and I ended up scoring points sitting in cover on objectives. At so little points they work well blocking enemy DS and still have utility sitting backfield.

 

Im also now thinking of running the following with hereteks:

[5 marauders, PP champion, 2 plasma, 2 shotguns]*2, chimera with multilaser/heavy flamer 200pts

If they pull off the disembark right thats 10 plasma shots hitting on 3s, with chimera weapons and 8 shotgun blasts for good measure

If you tossed in a malefic lord who casts warpflux/smite/creeping terror thats 230

 

Or if you want full damage for more cost (but might be pushing their utility/cost)

[5 marauders, PP champion, 2 meltaguns, 2 shotguns]*2, chimera with heavy flamer/heavy flamer 227pts

Or put them in a valkyrie...