Maximum workable decal size & rescue from a decal disaster!

[Dantay VI]

Hi,

 

I am thinking of making up my own decals. I will likely download the awesome RT era Space Wolves set Carlsson did.

 

I am also considering making some larger decals to go on to vehicles.

 

Can anyone provide some advice on how "big" a work able decal can be? I am thinking 30 x 40mm. like a rand raider door, or possibly longer thinner designs to embellish a tank or 2

 

Any tips would be gratefully accepted.

 

Thanks

 

Danny

Edited October 3, 2017 by Wolf_Priest _Dantay.

[NiceGuyAdi]

I've made up decals about 20x20mm and had no problems with them. The main thing is to be a bit more careful they don't fold over themselves as you slide them on.

 

You may want to introduce some slight variations in the colourlightness at that size, too. a bit of a speckled set of colours that are similar together would help break up the decal and stop it looking flat at the large size.

[Carlson793]

WAAYY back in the day, I did various Star Trek models. The Enterprise models tended to have decals for the red stripes on the nacelles/main hull, which came in at around 6 inches/150mm each. While care was needed to apply them (care I didn't quite have back then), they went on rather easily, though as NiceGuyAdi says, you need to watch out for the decal folding on itself (but that's a problem I have with even 5mm/8mm decals sometimes, so it should be a familiar issue).

 

As for largest workable size... Well, I'm still waiting to hear if anyone has been able to apply the Auric Arachnus carapace decal I put in my Freeblades sheet - it gets cut in three to go on the carapace and shoulder plates, but the full decal is 114mm x 87mm.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Carlson793

[winterdyne]

For large decals, trim as close as possible to the printed area and use a wet palette to damp the backing paper rather than immersing them. This help keep the decal controllable with the backing paper (it won't float off) and it preserves the adhesive better.

 

As they wet, long thin ones can curl, but you can just press them down onto the palette. Once they're good and damp they'll stay flat.

 

Then pick up the whole backing paper and lay that down close to where you want the decal. Pull, don't push it.

 

I've successfully applied some quite large decals like this.

[Dantay VI]

Well, I tried.... And I failed.

 

Went for 35 x 12mm designs.

 

dread 1 by Danny Taylor, on Flickr

dreads by Danny Taylor, on Flickr

 

The transfer came off of the backing paper fine and it had some colour to it.

 

I had gloss varnished the area and put down a layer of micro set.

 

The transfer seemed to disappear in some places and the colour pretty much disappeared.

 

I have not yet gloss coated over the decals yet to seal them in

 

First thoughts are that:

 

Using clear decal paper may have been the wrong choice

 

I need to use much bolder colours

 

I should have put a few more layers of decal film on the sheet (I did 2 by brush as my airbrush stopped working)

 

I need to find the best way to strip these down (UK based)

 

I need someone to show me how to properly design decals rather than just use internet pictures so I can colour them effectively (correct software to use etc)

 

I should have used Winterdynes tutorial from Carlssons signature, rather than rely on youtube videos.

 

Any help hints or tips would be gratefully received at this point as I am annoyed and hoping that these can be salvaged in some way.

[Kisada]

what about doing the decal in pieces?  Shouldn't be too hard to line up the following pieces, I'm able to get pretty accurate micro adjustments of position using a brush and some water

[Dantay VI]

It is an option, but lining up on the curved leviathan plate might be a problem.

 

For the levi leg plates, I was going to do the decal in 2 pieces. Now my confidence has been knocked, I may not use home brew decals at all :(

[Major_Gilbear]

To remove the decals you have, you will need some adhesive (but not masking) tape:

 

> Apply the tape carefully over the decal, leaving a piece that you can grip after sticking it over the decal; I'd fold the excess tape over on itself to make a little tab or tail that won't stick the model.

 

> Burnish the tape with the back of your fingernail over the decal, ensuring it's well adhered.

 

> Gripping the tail of the tape you left when you stuck it down, pull sharply across the decal.

 

This technique, which is a bit like waxing (!), is very effective at removing decals.

 

 

Looking at your results, there's a good few issues that I can see have gone wrong:

 

> The area you are sticking the decal to isn't smooth enough. More than just using some gloss varnish first, this is where initial model prep really makes a difference.

 

> The decal is too big, and is hang over all sorts of details. Trim the decal first, holding it up to the model until you know it will fit.

 

> Given the curved edge midway up the Dreadnought hull, it might be smarter to do each side in two pieces to ensure you get a crisp finish on the edge. Although you can cut into the sides of the decal first to help it sit flat, two pieces are easier to apply and align than one with cuts in it.

 

> Did you use Microsol on the decal? It helps to slightly melt the decal onto the surface of the model, avoiding the very bad case of "silvering" like the result you got. You need to be very patient and careful with Microsol though, as it's the quickest way to ruin your work if you touch the decal after applying before it's fully dry and cured again.

 

> The clear backing is otherwise fine as long as there isn't too much showing. To reduce the backing, you can lay two or three decals over each other, gloss-varnish sealing between them as you go. This way, you can trim the decal more tightly to the design, but still get the complexity by layering them over one another. More work, but you'll get a much better result.

 

> There's nothing wrong with two thin coats of sealer on the decal film - too much sealer has it's own issues! I would always suggest using a spray-on varnish though, whether rattlecan or airbrush.

 

> I would have probably also increased the contrast between the grey paint and the black decal; if you have an airbrush, you might want to look into colour modulation (lots of examples on YouTube about this, albeit more usually on WW2/modern tanks than on GW models) in order to get better results. At it's very simplest, having a slightly lighter soft grey "bloom" under the bigger part of the design would have helped.

 

At least you have some first-hand experience now though, and it doesn't look like you'll lose much paintwork-wise either. So I say chin up, and have another go! ;)

[Dantay VI]

Thanks Major Gilbear.

 

I have added replies in the quote with blue font.

 

Your advice is definitely really appreciated.

 

 

To remove the decals you have, you will need some adhesive (but not masking) tape:

 

> Apply the tape carefully over the decal, leaving a piece that you can grip after sticking it over the decal; I'd fold the excess tape over on itself to make a little tab or tail that won't stick the model.

 

> Burnish the tape with the back of your fingernail over the decal, ensuring it's well adhered.

 

> Gripping the tail of the tape you left when you stuck it down, pull sharply across the decal.

 

This technique, which is a bit like waxing (!), is very effective at removing decals.

 

I will definitely give this a try, thanks you

 

 

Looking at your results, there's a good few issues that I can see have gone wrong:

 

> The area you are sticking the decal to isn't smooth enough. More than just using some gloss varnish first, this is where initial model prep really makes a difference.

 

I am looking to get sprayable gloss varnish for doing this in the future, how would I go about making the area more smooth?

 

> The decal is too big, and is hang over all sorts of details. Trim the decal first, holding it up to the model until you know it will fit. 

 

I had measured it up but was slightly over optimistic. I will shrink it down a little more next time

 

> Given the curved edge midway up the Dreadnought hull, it might be smarter to do each side in two pieces to ensure you get a crisp finish on the edge. Although you can cut into the sides of the decal first to help it sit flat, two pieces are easier to apply and align than one with cuts in it. 

 

You are the second person to suggest this, so I might give it a go. I will probably leave the decal in one piece when printing and cut with scissors. Unless this will leave an edge where the water could cause the ink to run.

 

> Did you use Microsol on the decal? It helps to slightly melt the decal onto the surface of the model, avoiding the very bad case of "silvering" like the result you got. You need to be very patient and careful with Microsol though, as it's the quickest way to ruin your work if you touch the decal after applying before it's fully dry and cured again. 

 

I did use microsol, but I probably did more harm than good with it, as I kept fiddling and trying to flatten the decal out, which I believe is the exact opposite of what I should have been doing.

 

> The clear backing is otherwise fine as long as there isn't too much showing. To reduce the backing, you can lay two or three decals over each other, gloss-varnish sealing between them as you go. This way, you can trim the decal more tightly to the design, but still get the complexity by layering them over one another. More work, but you'll get a much better result. 

 

This sounds like a good idea, and is something I had been considering. The decals I used were all one piece images I had pinched off the internet, I am not sure if there are ways of "breaking" a drawing down to make this possible

 

> There's nothing wrong with two thin coats of sealer on the decal film - too much sealer has it's own issues! I would always suggest using a spray-on varnish though, whether rattlecan or airbrush.

 

I was going to try the airbrush, but ironically it jammed up and refused to work. I will be using the airbrush in the future

 

> I would have probably also increased the contrast between the grey paint and the black decal; if you have an airbrush, you might want to look into colour modulation (lots of examples on YouTube about this, albeit more usually on WW2/modern tanks than on GW models) in order to get better results. At it's very simplest, having a slightly lighter soft grey "bloom" under the bigger part of the design would have helped.

 

I had been trying to use MS paint to resize and add colour to the designs, such as using a tint, but it did not work so well. Not sure if the colour "dissolved" like some of the black (seemed to disappear as the edcal was laid on the microset, wasn't sure if the microset ate into it, as it smells pretty vinegar-y) 

Is there better software out there that I could use to increase the contrast or boost the colour. I almost contemplated running the decal paper through the printer a couple of times to see if that would work.

 

At least you have some first-hand experience now though, and it doesn't look like you'll lose much paintwork-wise either. So I say chin up, and have another go!

 

I will try again.It will have to wait a few weeks first as I am now offshore until the 23rd, so looks like I will be out of the tale of gamers :(

 

Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it and will use it as best I can.

[Carlson793]

Like WPD, adding my comments in color:

 

Well, I tried.... And I failed.

 

Went for 35 x 12mm designs.

 

The transfer came off of the backing paper fine and it had some colour to it.

 

I had gloss varnished the area and put down a layer of micro set.

 

The transfer seemed to disappear in some places and the colour pretty much disappeared.

 

This is an issue you're going to run into unless you use a white-underprinting printer (most likely, you don't have one). Neither printer ink nor laser toner are opaque, so if you print to clear decal paper, they will add to the background color (yellow decal becomes green on blue background). There are two ways around this, each kinda labor intensive:

 

1) Print two copies of your sheet on clear paper. Apply one set of decals, then carefully paint in any color areas with white. Seal that, then apply the second copy.

 

2) Print to white paper with a color background on your sheet matching your model background color. After applying the decal, use your background paint to blend the color background of the decal into your model. 

 

I have not yet gloss coated over the decals yet to seal them in

 

First thoughts are that:

 

Using clear decal paper may have been the wrong choice

 

Not necessarily - see above.

 

I need to use much bolder colours

 

As mentioned, printer ink and toner are a bit transparent, so using bolder colors will still lead to discolored images.

 

I should have put a few more layers of decal film on the sheet (I did 2 by brush as my airbrush stopped working)

 

Avoid brush sealing a decal sheet. It puts too much moisture on the sheet and can lead to bleeding images. Clear gloss paint from a rattle can does just fine.

 

I need someone to show me how to properly design decals rather than just use internet pictures so I can colour them effectively (correct software to use etc)

 

This is a vast subject. Route I went with are the Idiots and ...For Dummies book series - they were able to teach me the software for my current job.

As far as what software, I'm pretty much an Adobe exclusive guy. Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat. Others have produced good results with less expensive/free software like GIMP or Inkscape.

 

I should have used Winterdynes tutorial from Carlssons signature, rather than rely on youtube videos.

 

That's why it's in my sig. Winterdyne does a good job of explaining the process and the reasons for the steps in the process.

 

Any help hints or tips would be gratefully received at this point as I am annoyed and hoping that these can be salvaged in some way.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Major_Gilbear
Changed font colour for easier reading

[Dantay VI]

And now for more colour :) Carlson, I very much appreciate the input.

 

I didnt see th eguid ein your sig until I had screwed up. it was a very D'OH moment.

 

Like WPD, adding my comments in color:

 

Well, I tried.... And I failed.

 

Went for 35 x 12mm designs.

 

The transfer came off of the backing paper fine and it had some colour to it.

 

I had gloss varnished the area and put down a layer of micro set.

 

The transfer seemed to disappear in some places and the colour pretty much disappeared.

 

This is an issue you're going to run into unless you use a white-underprinting printer (most likely, you don't have one). Neither printer ink nor laser toner are opaque, so if you print to clear decal paper, they will add to the background color (yellow decal becomes green on blue background). There are two ways around this, each kinda labor intensive:

 

1) Print two copies of your sheet on clear paper. Apply one set of decals, then carefully paint in any color areas with white. Seal that, then apply the second copy.

 

So print once on the decal paper, carefully paint with white over the decal area. Once fully dry, with the same sheet, overlay the decal design on the white paint. Seal with  then seal with decal film.

 

Would this stop the Microsol from allowing the decal to conform to the models shape or will it make the paint flexible also?

 

2) Print to white paper with a color background on your sheet matching your model background color. After applying the decal, use your background paint to blend the color background of the decal into your model. 

 

This would seem to be the saner option. Looks like i might end up filing away the 9 A4 sheets of clear that I have, for models with lighter colours.

 

My other solution would be to change tack completely, paint the areas I want to apply the decal with my colours of choice. Apply decal. Carefully paint in around the edges.

 

I have not yet gloss coated over the decals yet to seal them in

 

First thoughts are that:

 

Using clear decal paper may have been the wrong choice

 

Not necessarily - see above.

 

I need to use much bolder colours

 

As mentioned, printer ink and toner are a bit transparent, so using bolder colors will still lead to discolored images.

 

I totally get that. I wasn't planning on using blue on yellow as it would be a recipe for disaster. Was going for golds, yellows, browns and blacks and reds.

 

 

I should have put a few more layers of decal film on the sheet (I did 2 by brush as my airbrush stopped working)

 

Avoid brush sealing a decal sheet. It puts too much moisture on the sheet and can lead to bleeding images. Clear gloss paint from a rattle can does just fine.

 

When I get off the rig, I am going to give the airbrush an intensive clean and check the seals incase they have started to go. Airbrush either doesnt work, reaches the end of trigger travel before realeasing paint or fires off paint at random. Was a super cheap no brand, so maybe it is time to upgrade.

 

I need someone to show me how to properly design decals rather than just use internet pictures so I can colour them effectively (correct software to use etc)

 

This is a vast subject. Route I went with are the Idiots and ...For Dummies book series - they were able to teach me the software for my current job.

As far as what software, I'm pretty much an Adobe exclusive guy. Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat. Others have produced good results with less expensive/free software like GIMP or Inkscape.

 

I have adobe on the laptop, te elements version, so maybe I can see what I can do with it. WIll look online at tutorials during my break times. Internet is crazy slow during down time.

 

I should have used Winterdynes tutorial from Carlssons signature, rather than rely on youtube videos.

 

That's why it's in my sig. Winterdyne does a good job of explaining the process and the reasons for the steps in the process.

 

Any help hints or tips would be gratefully received at this point as I am annoyed and hoping that these can be salvaged in some way.

 

Thank you Carlson :tu:

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

The MicroSol system has two parts - the Set and the Sol(vent). The solvent will help decals adhere to complex shapes or curves and after application of the solvent you need to let it sit, untouched, for at least 24 hours. It will wrinkle up and look like you destroyed the decal but it will gradually smooth out and conform to the surface. 

 

Because it is a solvent, you shouldn't be using it unless it's absolutely necessary in the event that it damages the decal. All across the internet I've seen people using the solvent on perfectly flat surfaces and there's no need for it, just use the Set part for those situations.

 

And always GLOSS before and after the decal. Always. The only thing worse than mold lines is the milky outline of decal film around a decal. 

[Dantay VI]

Ah, I did not know about the wait time for the microsol.

 

Pretty much everyone was using it in their video and thee was no mention of leaving the microsol for 24 hours between applications.

 

I will definitely remember that

 

I always gloss before and after working with any decal, I just never did the after this time in case it made it too hard to remove decal and potentially strip back the paint.

 

Thank you for the heads up.

[Dantay VI]

Major Gilbear.... My leviathan has been successfully body waxed.

 

The cellotape did the trick, thanks. I will be keeping that little tip handy.

 

Also found out that work has laserjet printers, so I might try using those (with the correct decal paper) in the near future. 

[Major_Gilbear]

It's an old scale-modelling trick, and I'm glad it worked for you!