Lieutenants = Castellans?

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

Ok wait I thought it was...

 

Sargent/Veteran = Sword Brother

 

Lieutenants = ?

 

Captain = Castellan

 

Chapter Master = Marshall

 

Super duper chapter master = High Marshall.

[Ciler]

That's how we saw it in V7, but here it's made quite clear that there's only one character per chapter with the Chapter Master trait.

[Firepower]

Vanilla Marines never had a model ranked below Captain but above Sargeant, while Templars did (Castellan), so when it came to converting the names to Templars, people just used those available (Captain, Chapter Master). 

 

Back on topic, I may have to twist a certain brother's arm into making me a new Crown of Crosses.  For a Chaplain this time, maybe... :D

Edited July 23, 2017 by Firepower

[Acebaur]

Ok wait I thought it was...

 

Sargent/Veteran = Sword Brother

 

Lieutenants = ?

 

Captain = Castellan

 

Chapter Master = Marshall

 

Super duper chapter master = High Marshall.

 

 

People only made the chapter master = marshal reference because there are some crusades that have been nearly as large as a normal chapter. Captains are really the equivalent of Marshal's only Marshal's can and often do command well over 100 marines. 

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

Brilliant. Got it. Now to start planning my lieu- er...castellan model!

[Closet Skeleton]

Vanilla Marines never had a model ranked below Captain but above Sargeant, while Templars did (Castellan), so when it came to converting the names to Templars, people just used those available (Captain, Chapter Master). 

 

Back on topic, I may have to twist a certain brother's arm into making me a new Crown of Crosses.  For a Chaplain this time, maybe...

 

 

Its a bit more complicated than that.

 

All marines had lieutenants back in 1st ed, so its basically been retconned that they never went away. In first ed the actual ranks were:

Imperial Commander (lead a chapter)

Lt. Commander (lead the first company)

Captain and Lieutenant (companies 2-10 have one of each)

Terminator Captain (not clear where they went in the chapter organisation but they were in the army list)

Sergeant

In first ed there were three stat lines (champion, minor hero and major hero) that were independent of rank, so a lieutenant could be more badass than his boss. But the highest rank you were allowed to take was a Lt. Commander so no chapter master equivalents were in the army list.

 

In 2nd ed you had a really confusing mess where they retained different ranks of Space Marine hero (now called veteran, hero, mighty hero) but they didn't have points values in the actual army list section where instead you had Captains who had the same stats as Mighty Heroes and Apothecaries, Standard Bearers and Veteran Sergeants who all had the veteran stat line. This meant that the hero statline despite showing up in the codex as a theoretical middle tier leader couldn't actually be legally fielded except in the form of the special characters Corbulo and Ancient Helveticus (so that's where the re-branding of standard bearers comes from, and here I was thinking they pulled it out of their ass). Except not really since Chaplains came in 3 levels with the same stat lines but they were still separate entries to the 'phantom' hero. Lt. Commander was merged with Terminator Captain and Imperial Commander was renamed to Chapter Master but only special character Chapter Masters (Calgar, Azrael and Dante) were allowed on the table top and they all had different unique stat lines.

 

In 3rd ed codex marines just had a 'hero' option with leader, commander and force commander as power levels that sort of like in first edition weren't tied to rank while Black Templars replaced that option with a Marshall who could also be taken with better stats as a High Marshall. Marshall/High Marshall were equivalent in stats to Commander/Force Commander so technically it was codex marines who had the extra option with their (veteran sergeant equivalent) 'leader' HQ choice. So despite lieutenants not having appeared since before 2nd ed you could kind of field them in 3rd ed.

 

Castellan was equivalent to Captain in the 4th ed codex while Marshall was equivalent to Master (not actually specified to be Chapter Master, 4th ed was weird but so were the other previous editions).

 

5th ed to the present continued the Captain/Chapter Master distinction.

 

Castellans. Our lieutenants are called castellans

 

 

People only made the chapter master = marshal reference because there are some crusades that have been nearly as large as a normal chapter. Captains are really the equivalent of Marshal's only Marshal's can and often do command well over 100 marines. 

 

 

Castellans are Captain equivalent because they command companies, it doesn't matter that they're fighting Companies rather than battle/reserve/veteran companies. If you look at the numbers given for Fighting Company sizes they're all above battle company size.

 

Donian Crusade

Marshal Household

34 Sword Brethren

Fighting Company Heinman

145 initiates, 34 neophytes

Fighting Company Gotchalcus

87 initiates

41 neophytes

Fighting Company Lazarus

171 initiates

56 neophytes

 

Oddly enough that's 3rd ed fluff despite that edition not allowing you to take Castellans despite them commanding larger armies than the High Marshall was likely to lead on the table top.

 

Even the smallest fighting company is 20% larger than a codex company while the Marshall household despite being equivalent to a codex first company is much smaller. So a Fighting Company is more or less equivalent to a Space Wolf Grand Company in size, which are led by Wolf Lords not by the lieutenant equivalent Wolf Guard Battle Leaders.

 

As a commander of multiple companies a Marshall is equivalent to the real world rank of Major, but as the leader of a First Company equivalent has some of the old Lt. Commander role of first ed.

 

Literally a Castellan is a leader of a Castle, but wikipedia claims that historically that position was often also referred to as a constable, governor or captain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellan

 

So really a Castellan is not a lieutenant and most table top Black Templar armies should be led by Castellans, not Marshals. Its just that in the 4th ed book taking the weaker stat line was pointless so everyone got used to using Marshals. In the real world, Marshal is a really high rank, its not equivalent to Captain in any sense.

 

Which still leaves us stuck on the question of "so what is a Black Templars Lieutenant called?" The Primaris booklet from Dark Imperium is clear that a Primaris Black Templar lieutenant is marked by a skull on his helm and is called... a lieutenant.

 

There's really no reason why non-Primaris BT wouldn't use the same rank, the 4th ed codex made it clear that sergeant existed as a Black Templar rank and it was more out of tradition that it was rare (represented in the rules by it being command squads only) so lieutenant might work similarly. The only problem is that lieutenant doesn't sound knightly, while sergeant at least has a pedigree from the middle ages.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Firepower]

I like my version more.  

 

I'm a 2nd edition baby, but let's be fair, as much as things have changed since then, 1st edition doesn't really reflect on 40k at all, from 2nd onward.

 

How does a Castellan command a company when Templars don't have companies?

 

But this is all rather off topic, ain't it?  

Edited July 23, 2017 by Firepower

[Closet Skeleton]

I like my version more.  

 

I'm a 2nd edition baby, but let's be fair, as much as things have changed since then, 1st edition doesn't really reflect on 40k at all, from 2nd onward.

 

How does a Castellan command a company when Templars don't have companies?

 

But this is all rather off topic, ain't it?  

 

Templars have companies and always have had companies, so I have no idea what you're on about.

 

I couldn't work out how to put the first/second ed stuff in spoiler blocks to hide it. I just put it there for completeness.

[redmapa]

Edit: wanted to quote but apparently my answer got messed up.

 

Lieutenants=Castellans, both serve the same role as second in command to a large force of marines.

Edited July 23, 2017 by redmapa

[Acebaur]

I have to disagree that a Captain is a Castellan equivalent. First off, in 4th ed the entry was called "Commander" and the individual entries were labeled Marshal and Castellan with the only difference being 1 wound and 15 points. 5th ed C:SM introduced the CM and Capt designations. Fluff wise a chapter is organized like this: Chapter Master -> 1st Company Captain -> Captain -> Sgt -> Marines

 

In the Black Templars, Helbrecht is the chapter master though we call him the High Marshal. Under him are the Marshals. To compare the hierarchy of us and a normal chapter the Marshals sit under the CM and are so equivalent in rank to a captain. It doesn't matter how many marines each commands because crusades have been known to range from less than a company size to well over a chapter. So it doesn't matter how many marines are led by a marine, the rank remains the same. 

We have no first company, instead we have Sword Brethren, who do not form a unique company but are instead spread throughout all crusades and no one marine leads them(technically I guess you could say Helbrecht).

 

So then we come to castellans. When a Crusade is large enough to warrant splitting up because of whatever reason then a castellan is designated to lead those troops and that title is an "additional honorific" according to the 4th BT dex. This implies that it is not an official rank such as a Marshal  but one that may or may not be temporary.  I think the Lieutenant character fits this role very well, and for that reason I shall call them Castellans. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

There is a mistake made here in assuming a size for fighting companies as neccessarily larger than a codex battle company. The dornian crusade exampled above is a large crusade. There's been even larger, but remember, a crusade may be as small as a single squad of crusaders. There's no set size to a fighting company, the observation above that they're "roughly 20% larger than a codex battle company" is based on observations from a sample size of three, all from the same large crusade.

 

Rather than this we should consider roles, A marshal leads a crusade, which may be large enough that it may wise to split up into two or more fighting companies. The marshal is the supreme commander of the entire crusade still and the castellans serve as his lieutenants

 

EDIT: as Acebaur pointed out above, everything fits neatly into place if: High Marshal = Chapter Master, Captain = Marshal, Lieutenant = Castellan. To argue further along this point, we don't really use any traditional military rankings at all, we don't have captains or even sergeants. It makes sense then that we don't have any "Lieutenants" either, which would be our only other choice if we wish to insist on Castellans = Captains.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Reinhard

[Medjugorje]

 I would say a Marshal is like the first captain, but we still have more of them^^- Captain of the First Company ( like  Lysander, Belial,... maybe like 2nd Company Sicarius or Sammael of the DA or other chapters were they have special companies and even the greater ones with more experience ).  Our Marshalls are higher ranked like Castellans - like Belial or Lysander are higher ranked then other Captains.

 

I would like to see a special Model for Black TEmplars but maybe it needs its time ;)))

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

EDIT: as Acebaur pointed out above, everything fits neatly into place if: High Marshal = Chapter Master, Captain = Marshal, Lieutenant = Castellan. To argue further along this point, we don't really use any traditional military rankings at all, we don't have captains or even sergeants. It makes sense then that we don't have any "Lieutenants" either, which would be our only other choice if we wish to insist on Castellans = Captains.

 

We actually do have Sergeants based on 4th edition Chapter Organization, it's just that they are rare, and are probably only shown as 2nd in command to Castellans or even Chaplains that are leading Crusades...

 

Such an example is Bastilan of the Helsreach Crusade

And the Ophidium Gulf Crusade was led by a Castellan instead of a Marshal, so it may have had a Sergeant as a 2nd in Command...

 

All in all, Templar Chapter Organization is pretty complex and more attuned towards bonds of Brotherhood and achievements of leadership and honor... We don't necessarily use the Chapter Master rule to represent Marshals, as Marshals are more the equivalent of 1st Co. Captains, being that they are Sword brethren that more or leads a group of Sword Brethren and can induct new Sword Brotthers into their household, but as stated above we just used the Chapter Master rule during 6th mainly because it's much better than the lower rank, And while I do agree that Lieutenants = Castellan in a Templar army, Sergeants are still a thing, but I wouldn't call them an individual character, but rather the 2nd in command of a Command Squad or something similar.

[Medjugorje]

there is one in the gods of mars. Its a seargent too.

[Ebon Hand]

I think I'm more with closet skeleton. Black Templars operate more or less like a legion right? Will let's take a look at the legion structure in the heresy era.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/5/56/SMLegionOrg.jpg

 

As you can see, the return of the Lieutenant is a throwback to the legion days. The rank structure used to be

 

Chapter command:

Lieutenant Commander(Equal to First Captain, Shadow Captain, Marshal)

Company Command:

Company Captain (Equal to Centurion, Prime, Wolf Lord, Blooded, Etc. I think Castellan would go here as well. Lexicanum agrees, citing the Black Templars codex)

 

1st Lieutenant with several squads under him, sort a squad level officer. (Also known as a Dominar, Decurion, Pack Leader, or Chieftain)

 

2nd Lieutenant with several squads as well

 

3rd Lieutenant with several squads

 

With all this in mind, I would think that Black Templars certainly have Lieutenants, but as an honorific similar to Castellans. A Castellan might have an important mission and send one of his most trusted Sword Brothers. Sword Brothers have sergeants right?

 

I think they would fulfill the role of Lieutenant, though the Castellan could choose any Sword Brother he trusts. It's now about completing the mission than actual structure with Black Templars, though the titles have an honor associated with them. That is how some Initiates can sometimes ascend quickly to higher ranks through legendary deeds.

 

So I think 'Venerable Sword Brother' would be a good Black Templar honorific for a Lieutenant, or perhaps even 'Castellan Major' as the Castellan himself is a Sword Brother as well.

 

What say you brothers?

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Kisada]

Hmmmm what model to use for the lieutenant/castellan/venerable sword brother?

[balordazul]

Hmmmm what model to use for the lieutenant/castellan/venerable sword brother?

I have been asking myself the same question and Thunderhammer and combi-plasma?

 

I was digging around to see if I still had the limited edition BT model or not.  

[Ebon Hand]

I always used Sword Brother or Veteran models for Castellans depending on what weapon loadout I need.

 

Castellan Draco (the limited edition BT model Balordazul mentions) also fits nicely. It's a shame relic blades didn't go down in cost, that's what I always run him with and I don't think I will stop because he looks too cool and they are still pretty nice. I'll just take the 21 point hit and take 1 less neophyte or something.

[Kisada]

Castellan Draco would be cool.

 

I guess for now I'll just use an appropriate sword brother.

[Brother Christopher]

With the re-introduction of Castellans (especially with their amazign buff!), I finally know what to do with my AoBR captain! I also have collected a number of other miniatures over the years (like the plastic captain with the combi-grav, very much alike the AoBR captain or a metal Sicarius model). In general, however, I want to set my Castelans from other units apart with a backpack banner - finally I have some proper incentive to use those; I somehow never have been a fan of those.

[Brother Talarian]

I may have missed something, but why do most seem very keen on a captain, lieutenant? That lets you re-roll misses of 1. Isn't a chaplain better?

Sure, the re-roll 1 is for both shooting and CC, but we want to be in CC anyhow, don't we?

 

Thank you for clarification

[balordazul]

So we are talking about lieutenant = castellan for the re-roll TO WOUND of 1s.  People are talking about adding the BT relic helm to him for a larger buff.  He is also only 60 points without making him a great cost.  I think the common idea is that a captain is a marshal.  

 

Yes, I to my friends wish the relic blade was reasonable price or did something that tied better to the point cost. 

[Firepower]

I may have missed something, but why do most seem very keen on a captain, lieutenant? That lets you re-roll misses of 1. Isn't a chaplain better?

Sure, the re-roll 1 is for both shooting and CC, but we want to be in CC anyhow, don't we?

 

Thank you for clarification

 

CC is the ideal place to be, but it's not as though we have no guns at all.  And so far as I know, the Castellan's buff also affects vehicles, like Helbrecht's bubble.  So a Castellan hanging out next to Land Raiders, Dreads, what-have-you is a fairly cheap, useful buff.  

 

I don't think I have room for them in my lists personally, but they aren't bad.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Firepower

[Closet Skeleton]

In 4th edition, Codex Marines had Captain (2 wounds ld 9) and Chapter Master (3 wounds ld 10) stat lines for their commander option and they were the same as the Castellan and Marshall respectively.

 

But in 5th edition Black Templars were stuck with their 4th ed book while vanilla marines had their Captain's stat line buffed up from 2 wounds to 3 wounds. That's where the confusion is coming from. Saying having a Castellan as a special Black Templar lower rank HQ is like saying BT are characterised by having crappy storm shields or superior servo arms.

 

Personally I ran my Castellan as a Assault Terminator Sergeant. I don't care what rules you use for your models, I think representing the Marshall of a small 1 company crusade and his Castellan with the Captain and Lieutenant rules sounds quite cool. You could also use the Company Champion rules for a Marshall if you wanted a Marshall who was just a duellist and strategic level commander who was bad at actually leading from the front. I'm just pointing out where misconceptions are coming from and what the official fluff actually said. There's simply no precedent for saying a Black Templar Lieutenant is a Castellan; just fluffy justifications you can make for why your Castellan is represented by the Lieutenant rules.

 

All Black Templar ranks are honour titles and attached to temporary formations. A Castellan is still a leader of a company regardless and in standard military organisation the leader of a Company is a Captain or equivalent to one. In a one Fighting Company Crusade where the Marshall leads from the front then the Castellan would be little more than a lieutenant in a practical sense despite what pay grade a modern military would put him under. If your Black Templar army represents a Fighting Company from a larger crusade then your Castellan should be a Captain and your lieutenants would be lieutenants. A Marshall of a small crusade would probably be a Castellan who was recently promoted after a larger crusade split off anyway.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Ciler]

The upcoming codex has a blurb on how BTs do not codex ranks, but name their captains Marshals and their lieutenants Castellans.